AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > General > General Chat

Notices

View Poll Results: Do you think that given the US laws, Polasnki should be judged for the crime he has d
Yes 41 85.42%
No 7 14.58%
Voters: 48. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2009-10-01, 03:35   Link #121
Kusa-San
I'll end it before April.
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post

All I'm pointing out is that he did a crime, ruined his reputation, salvaged his career (in some circles), the victim moved on with her life, and the only people who seem to care are the US justice system, trying to save face because someone managed to evade them long enough to embarrass them. They're going to put an old man in jail, patting themselves on the back for...what? "We finally got him!" and the world will say "So? Don't you have better things to do with your time?"

Honestly...on the scale of things that make America look bad, this is hardly something of note.
No the whole world will say : "Good, this man is not above the law". I don't care if he is old. It's his fault to have run away and now to be old. He will now assume the consequence. That's all.
__________________
Kusa-San is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-01, 03:37   Link #122
MeoTwister5
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Where I can learn to be lonely.
Age: 29
Once again no one is advocating him to be released. People are assuming again that there is a one-for-all punishment befitting the entire spectrum regardless of circumstances.

I may be out of line by saying this, but this is how I interpret those seeking the "lock him up and throw away the key, if not fry him on the chair" approach: it's a simple desire to satiate the hunger for vengeance. To me it's nothing more than revenge; vengeance on a person for the wrong that he has done.

But once vengeance is served cold, then what? The person is dead/locked up, but what does it do in the long run? It prevents the person from doing it again, obviously, but what else? Will a simple life or death sentence cause change in society? Will it cause say a change in the person, assuming he is capable of remorse and change, or maybe even change in others in similar situation? There are far too many possible effects that may come from different perceived solutions, and you would want the best. This to me is simply a "Lock him up now, let's figure everything else out later" mentality.

A simple generic punishment no matter the circumstances limits the possibilities. Remember that the term for these things is "Correction", but what exactly is corrective about simply putting someone in jail or in the chair and forgetting the person ever existed?
MeoTwister5 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-01, 03:40   Link #123
Quzor
It's the year 3030...
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Spaceport Colony Sicilia
Age: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisdrache View Post
It is not the fault of justice that now that Polanski dodged jail over several decades that he is now near his "expiration date." Basically you are saying that someone who ran away from his sentence should now even be rewarded for his actions with a reduced punishment or not even going into jail. I cant see the logic behind this train of thought and to be honest I also dont really want to.
Okay, fine. Put him in jail. He's a child-molester and a criminal and that's where he belongs. What have you accomplished? You've successfully put a 77-year-old man into an already overcrowded prison system. You've placed him in with the general population, where sex-offenders are regarded as the lowest of the low. You've also, consequently, forced the government to shell out ~$20,000/year to keep this man in the prison. All of that excludes costs for medical expenses to keep him alive when his health begins failing. That also excludes any medical expenses that would be incurred if he were to have an "accident" during interactions with any of the other inmates. Congratulations. You've just cost our country $20,000 x *X number of years incarcerated* + *medical expenditures*.

On the other hand, they could levy a HEFTY fine against the man, and place him under psychological surveillance for the remainder of his life, as an act of probation. This would also include any probationary fines he would incur as a result of this sentence. And, of course, the best part is that all of this costs us EXACTLY NOTHING! The beauty of probation is that all of the expenses are the responsibility of the defendant. Now, instead of costing our government $20,000 a year, over the next 10 years for 1 person (remember, that's only for Polanski...keep adding another $20,000 for each person with at least 1 year jail time still left to serve), we've successfully made (presumably, and undershooting), $1,000,000 to put towards something worth while.

Forgive me for not being more calm about this issue but, again, this isn't just a case of "a criminal should be punished for the crime." We're entering the realm of looking at where the most benefit can be gained from his sentencing not, as MeoTwister5 said, using the "...hand of justice in criminal prosecution and punishment..." to smite the offender.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kusa-San View Post
No the whole world will say : "Good, this man is not above the law". I don't care if he is old. It's his fault to have run away and now to be old. He will now assume the consequence. That's all.
That's very idealistic of you, especially considering how good America is at making sure that celebrities, or people of sufficient fame, are held above the law.
__________________
http://www.tg-media.net/the_chaos/QuzorSig488.jpg

Last edited by Quzor; 2009-10-01 at 16:23.
Quzor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-01, 04:00   Link #124
james0246
Senior Member
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Cupcake
^Honestly, if Polanski were to go to jail, I expect they (DoJ/California DA) would pull some strings in order to place him in a Minimum Security prison. That is, if he even does go to jail (and he is not just sentenced with Time Served). And if he does, I doubt he would imprisoned for that long (people thinking he would be sentenced to a full 20 years (or whatever the maximum sentence for statutory rape is in California) are simply deluding themselves): rehabilitation matters little in a sentencing when discussing a criminal over the age of 60-70, so if you sentence such a person to 20 years, it is actually a death sentence, which I doubt any jury would agree to in Polanski's case.

In the end, I expect if Polanski is extradited and taken to the U.S. he will be senteced to time served, then be arrested for running from the law, in which he will be given 5-10 in a minimum security prison and make it out after a year (which was, more or less, probably going to be the maximum on his original sentence anyway).

That being said, I was really interested to see what Polanski would have done with Harris' The Ghost (before this attempted extridiction occured). Oh well, I hope someone else picks up the title...
james0246 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-01, 04:07   Link #125
mg1942
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quzor View Post
Okay, fine. Put him in jail. He's a child-molester and a criminal and that's where he belongs. What have you accomplished? You've successfully put a 77-year-old man into an already overcrowded prison system. You've placed him in with the general population, where sex-offenders are regarded as the lowest of the low. You've also, consequently, forced the government to shell out ~$20,000/year to keep this man in the prison. All of that excludes costs for medical expenses to keep him alive when his health begins failing. That also excludes any medical expenses that would be incurred if he were to have an "accident" during interactions with any of the other inmates. Congratulations. You've just cost our country $20,000 x *X number of years incarcerated* + *medical expenditures*.

On the other hand, they could levy a HEFTY fine against the man, and place him under psychological surveillance for the remainder of his life, as an act of probation. This would also include any probationary fines he would incur as a result of this sentence. And, of course, the best part is that all of this costs us EXACTLY NOTHING! The beauty of probation is that all of the expenses are the responsibility of the defendant. Now, instead of costing our government $200,000 over the next 10 years for 1 person (remember, that's only for Polanski...keep adding another $200,000 for each person with at least 1 year jail time still left to serve), we've successfully made (presumably, and undershooting), $1,000,000 to put towards something worth while.


THIS!

The State of California is broke, debt up to their eyeballs. They ought to milk him dry so that California can balance it budget

Prisoners cost so much that the state release some of 'em early.
mg1942 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-01, 04:11   Link #126
Quzor
It's the year 3030...
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Spaceport Colony Sicilia
Age: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
^Honestly, if Polanski were to go to jail, I expect they (DoJ/California DA) would pull some strings in order to place him in a Minimum Security prison. If he even does go to jail (and he is not just sentenced with Time Served), I doubt he would imprisoned for that long (people thinking he would be sentenced to a full 20 years (or whatever the maximum sentence for statutory rape is in California) are simply deluding themselves - rehabilitation matters little in a sentencing when discussing a criminal over the age of 60-70, so if you sentence such a person to 20 years, it is actually a death sentence, which I doubt any jury would agree to in Polanski's case).

In the end, I expect if Polanski is extradited and taken to the U.S. he will be senteced to time served, then be arrested for running from the law, in which he will be given 5-10 in a minimum security prison.
Again though, I don't see how this is of any benefit, other than "Yay, we punished the criminal!" Meo has been forthcoming in stating it, and I'm inclined to agree; punishments are designed to instigate change. Be it change from a certain pattern of behavior on a personal scale, on a social scale, or just in the realm of understanding of consequence, it's still change. What possible change can come of Polanski going to jail for this crime? Will people see that he was caught after running from the law for 30 years, and suddenly decide that running from the law is fruitless? Will they see that he received punishment for something he did 30 years ago, and decide not to commit crimes? Or will they see a rich, old man being coddled by the DoJ near the end of his life, despite what he's done in the past.

I know it sounds contradictory (especially with what I just said), but I really don't think jail is the best option here. We're already spending money to extradite him to the US. We're spending money to prosecute him. If we put him in jail, we're spending money to incarcerate him. Would it not seem like a reasonable punishment to simply keep him under surveillance, and levy a fine against him? In this instance, not only does he not get to repeat his act (which he probably won't anyway), he has the embarrassment of having officials watching his every move, and the horror and sadness that would undoubtedly accompany him having to give all of that money he made over the last 30 years, away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mg1942 View Post
THIS!

The State of California is broke, debt up to their eyeballs. They ought to milk him dry so that California can balance it budget

Prisoners cost so much that the state release some of 'em early.
I saw some interesting statistics once. Not sure how accurate they are today. I'll see if I can find them again sometime, when it's not five o'clock in the morning.

The US has more incarcerated individuals than any other country in the world. On average, the US spends nearly $50 billion per year to keep these inmates incarcerated. Approximately 1 in 100 individuals in America is in jail. Approximately 1 in 40 individuals is either in jail, on parole, on probation, or being monitored by some agency of the justice department.

If those are true (and I'm recalling from memory, so they may be a bit off), those are some pretty scary numbers.

Edit: Found some. Perhaps not the most reliable source but, eh... it's five o'clock in the morning. Incarceration Rate in the US
Cost of Incarceration in the US
__________________
http://www.tg-media.net/the_chaos/QuzorSig488.jpg

Last edited by Quzor; 2009-10-01 at 04:22.
Quzor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-01, 04:22   Link #127
james0246
Senior Member
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Cupcake
^I edited my post a little. I agree that jail seems very unreasonable, but not because it is a waste of money (though it is), but because it would not serve the DA to try and get him put in prison. Specifically, even if Polanski was extradited tomorrow, had his sentence read by next Monday, and imprisoned the that evening, within a week's time a new court case would be introduced (whether civil or criminal, I am not sure, they would probably attempt to reopen the original case with new evidence), and a media circus would develop around the new case. I can just imagine Polanski's attorneys raising such a stink in the court that no one would be left standing, and all those present would find their careers more or less over.

So, a plea bargining of some sort seems like the best option available for the DA, and, like you mentioned, a hefty fine seems like the more legitimate solution to this messed up case.

In the end, I do agree that jail seems to serve no purpose in this case. Besdies a moral victory (of sorts) against the idea of rape (etc), there is no real "happy" solution to this mess.
james0246 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-01, 04:26   Link #128
Quzor
It's the year 3030...
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Spaceport Colony Sicilia
Age: 29
^ Ah, apologies then. I didn't catch the edit as I was frantically searching the internet for those incarceration figures.

As for The Ghost, I'm sure someone else will pick it up, much the same way that Spielberg jumped all over A.I. after Kubrick passed.
__________________
http://www.tg-media.net/the_chaos/QuzorSig488.jpg
Quzor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-01, 04:29   Link #129
FateAnomaly
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
So in the end it boils down to money. Money is without a doubt one the the most powerful thing in the world. In its presence even Lady justice have to open her eyes.
FateAnomaly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-01, 04:32   Link #130
Quzor
It's the year 3030...
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Spaceport Colony Sicilia
Age: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by FateAnomaly View Post
So in the end it boils down to money. Money is without a doubt one the the most powerful thing in the world. In its presence even Lady justice have to open her eyes.
A sad, but true statement. Hollywood is such a great example of this, and I don't think anyone here could say otherwise. Hell, we could probably just start a thread listing the names of famous people who have paid their way out of punishments, and have it at 100 pages before lunch.
__________________
http://www.tg-media.net/the_chaos/QuzorSig488.jpg
Quzor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-01, 06:20   Link #131
Thingle
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Imperial Manila, Philippines
Quote:
Originally Posted by FateAnomaly View Post
So in the end it boils down to money. Money is without a doubt one the the most powerful thing in the world. In its presence even Lady justice have to open her eyes.
It's power. Money is just its material manifestation. As much as reason is its intellectual manifestation.
Thingle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-01, 06:23   Link #132
Narona
Emotionless White Face
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
I see you all are missing the point. He's 77 years old. What exactly, can you say would be a fitting punishment for this man at this point in time? Do you send him to jail until he dies, which might be a decade, maybe two if he's in great health? What type of jail? Sending him into a general population is just begging for his premature demise. Do you give him the death penalty?

I know how the law works, thanks. I'm also aware of the *numerous* occasions where laws are changed, bent, or broken for exceptions. Remember Michael Fay? Different crime and circumstances, but that one was much more diplomatic - the US government requested leniency because they thought the punishment was too strong for the crime. Singapore only relented because the request came from the President.

Perhaps instead of spending decades insulting the French the United States could have spent it building relations that would have enabled them to extradite this man sooner (among other beneficial things between the countries of course).

Do the crime, do the time. Eye for an Eye, it's a case between the US and him, not the victim anymore. I see everyone harping on what the law is written as but not many considering the circumstances of the situation.

Consider for a moment, the article that was linked earlier by SeijiSensei. In the article is a person who will be labeled a criminal for the rest of her life for a consensual act. The fantasy of many young men became a nightmare for her as she struggles to find employment, moving constantly due to ostracism of the community. For what? How is she a sex offender for performing oral sex on someone barely over a year younger than her, with his permission? How does this one act destroy a life? Why can't she have her charges removed considering that what she was charged for is no longer considered a crime? And why don't more people fight against this stupidity?

We have rules here on the forums too. In all but a few cases, they aren't iron clad. We can and do bend them, if the circumstances require it. In some cases such examinations even cause us to revise, rewrite, or remove a rule entirely.

All I'm pointing out is that he did a crime, ruined his reputation, salvaged his career (in some circles), the victim moved on with her life, and the only people who seem to care are the US justice system, trying to save face because someone managed to evade them long enough to embarrass them. They're going to put an old man in jail, patting themselves on the back for...what? "We finally got him!" and the world will say "So? Don't you have better things to do with your time?"

Honestly...on the scale of things that make America look bad, this is hardly something of note.
You're missing the point of what most people are discussing around the world (at least in France).

The main point is not the sentence (so far), it's to not abandon the charges against him as if he was above the normal people and even above the "stars". Nor to give any special treatments to a fugitive (like allowing him to not be present at the trial when the sentence has to be pronounced)

As cooley said it, Polanski is trying to make his own laws, as if he had the right to choose to not be charged. But he has no right to choose to evade the US Justice, nor the righ to choose if he can be charged or not.

You're comparison is not good. What was discussed in Michael Fay's case is the punishment, not to "judge him or not" or "extradite him or not". Even "if" the sentence in Polanski's case could be not harsh (like a few people like you are suggesting), He has to be extradited, he has to be judged. He has to be present for a sentence to be pronounced (that's the US law in the california state) Like any other people. The Justice don't have to abandon the charges (that's what Polanski wants given his Lawyer. he doesn't even discuss the sentence, he just wants the charges to be dropped for his two crimes. You're defending that too?), nor to pronounce a sentence without him being present. There's no reason to make a special case about this part of the law. He can walk, he's in good health, hence he can come to the trial. Plus, there's even less reason to accept him to not be present since he is a fugitive. Even stars come to the trials for the sentences to be pronounced, you know. It would mean Polanski is even above the stars that you're talking about.

(and P.S., about France, France didn't have the right to extradite him. It would have meant to disregard the law that says that we don't extradite a person who has the French nationality (Polanski or common people, it's like that here). You then expect France to disregard its law and to our presidents to act as dictator.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Quzor View Post
A sad, but true statement. Hollywood is such a great example of this, and I don't think anyone here could say otherwise. Hell, we could probably just start a thread listing the names of famous people who have paid their way out of punishments, and have it at 100 pages before lunch.
And then you expect lady justice to bend over for Polanski? If it's a sad statement of yours, then you would be happy if lady justice don't bend this time, right?

Last edited by Narona; 2009-10-01 at 07:16.
Narona is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-01, 07:55   Link #133
Eisdrache
Part-time misanthrope
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quzor View Post
[...]
Well I admit I can see the reasoning behind your posts. I do agree that we dont accomplish anything besides putting a child molester in jail. He also costs the state more than placing him under surveillance outside. However Im troubled with the fact that you place money over justice. The fact that you intend to treat Polanski differently than other child molesters.

If you apply this treatment to Polanski you have to do it to every single other child molester who is currently in jail. And this will cost the goverment far more than $ 200'000. Not to mention that putting someone under surveillance doesnt come cheap as well. Dont forget that not every rapist is a famous oscar director. Not all of them can pay several hundred thousand dollars fines to support the goverment.

You also mention the point that he is widely known as a rapist and we know that pedophiles usually are extremely unpopular wherever you go. This has not hindered Polanski over the last 30 years to become a famous director, winning not only an oscar but also several film prices and also living in France as well as doing holidays in Switzerland without being bothered by it at all.
__________________
Eisdrache is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-01, 08:02   Link #134
Cipher
.....
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quzor View Post
A sad, but true statement. Hollywood is such a great example of this, and I don't think anyone here could say otherwise. Hell, we could probably just start a thread listing the names of famous people who have paid their way out of punishments, and have it at 100 pages before lunch.
Any contrivance on how to attune this unbalanced power problem? Maybe we should go communist, everyone more, but not en bloc, equal?

Capitalism cedes deserved power to those who work hard but it also gives undeserved power to those born with ancestral money. Communism gives non-meritorious power to those in control but it creates a more unmerited equal majority.

I think we need limited merit equality.
Cipher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-01, 08:06   Link #135
Thingle
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Imperial Manila, Philippines
just pay some enterprising prisoner to shank him at the mess hall and it's all over..
Thingle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-01, 08:33   Link #136
MeoTwister5
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Where I can learn to be lonely.
Age: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thingle View Post
just pay some enterprising prisoner to shank him at the mess hall and it's all over..
If you put him in a regular prison, that's bound to happen anyway.

And for free too!
MeoTwister5 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-01, 09:09   Link #137
Cipher
.....
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
If you put him in a regular prison, that's bound to happen anyway.

And for free too!
I heard that, in prisons, cigarettes were currency. I'm thinking his transfer would only create his transition from different types of situational powers.
Cipher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-01, 11:16   Link #138
yezhanquan
Observer/Bookman wannabe
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 29
Note that money as power was a relatively new thing. Before that, it was religion as power.
__________________
Those from the lower levels cannot hope to surpass those from the upper.

RIP, Oba-chan (1935-2008)
yezhanquan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-01, 11:32   Link #139
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 57
Actually, I think removing a large portion of his assets and dedicating them to improving the lot of young teens in education and rehabilitation -- probably does society more good than throwing him in jail for very long. I'll hope that the judge/jury are creative in that regard.

Legally speaking, even if the "victim" does not want to pursue charges, the state often has an interest in prosecuting cases -- otherwise mobsters would simply pay off victims or husbands would threaten abused wives, etc.

However, I wish this amount of media attention had been paid to all the teens who are having their lives ruined by usurious "underage" laws as prosecuted by witchburning prosecutors "protecting the children" (by ruining their lives).
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-01, 11:36   Link #140
Cipher
.....
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Actually, I think removing a large portion of his assets and dedicating them to improving the lot of young teens in education and rehabilitation -- probably does society more good than throwing him in jail for very long. I'll hope that the judge/jury are creative in that regard.

Legally speaking, even if the "victim" does not want to pursue charges, the state often has an interest in prosecuting cases -- otherwise mobsters would simply pay off victims or husbands would threaten abused wives, etc.

However, I wish this amount of media attention had been paid to all the teens who are having their lives ruined by usurious "underage" laws as prosecuted by witchburning prosecutors "protecting the children" (by ruining their lives).
They should take away both his assets and freedom: Mugged and Jailed.
Cipher is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:41.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.