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Old 2009-10-03, 01:59   Link #1041
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
If she did borrow powers from Lambda then who knows what she is capable of. We know almost nothing that can be confirmed about the "witch of certainty" Lambdadelta. Really, WHO THE HELL IS SHE?
Doesn't that extra tip suggest that she was the one who spurred Takano on to do all those horrible things in Higurashi?
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Old 2009-10-03, 02:01   Link #1042
Marion
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
What makes you the absolute authority on what powers the witches have?
What if Beatrice borrowed the power from Lamdadelta to choose 4 kakera for the purpose of trapping Bernkastel but instead she used that power to show Battler the truth?
If she did borrow powers from Lambda then who knows what she is capable of. We know almost nothing that can be confirmed about the "witch of certainty" Lambdadelta. Really, WHO THE HELL IS SHE?
She's 34-tan of course ;)

Well Lambda is described as a witch who can make any one thing definietly happen, as we know. However it all depends on the wording of the wish she grants.

Example: If you said you wanted to earn 10000 dollars then Lambda would grant it. However, if you waver in your will to earn that money then her certainty no longer works.

So if Beatrice wanted Battler to reveal the truth then Lambda's power could make it happen. But if his will wavered to reveal that truth then the certainty no longer works. Something like that is Lambda's power. There's also the power of being able to cause certain death to any target apparently. And in EP 3 she did threaten Beato, saying that she would turn her back into a human and throw her into a miserable world.
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Old 2009-10-03, 03:08   Link #1043
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Ah, thank you.

Spoiler for size:
I'm not going to say that all or even most of the above guesses are right, but it's nowhere near as hopeless as you're making it out to be. If you're trying to say that we should all stop thinking about possible solutions now, I have to disagree.

Spoiler for size:


Edit: I just realized that with your theory, the red text does not always tell the truth. If that's the case, there's almost no point in continuing this series...
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Old 2009-10-03, 03:13   Link #1044
Ssol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Doesn't that extra tip suggest that she was the one who spurred Takano on to do all those horrible things in Higurashi?
Takano wanted to become a god not a witch. The girl in the "Lambda's Diary" asked to become a witch and became one by Lambda's power at the end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
She's 34-tan of course

Well Lambda is described as a witch who can make any one thing definietly happen, as we know. However it all depends on the wording of the wish she grants.

Example: If you said you wanted to earn 10000 dollars then Lambda would grant it. However, if you waver in your will to earn that money then her certainty no longer works.

So if Beatrice wanted Battler to reveal the truth then Lambda's power could make it happen. But if his will wavered to reveal that truth then the certainty no longer works. Something like that is Lambda's power. There's also the power of being able to cause certain death to any target apparently. And in EP 3 she did threaten Beato, saying that she would turn her back into a human and throw her into a miserable world.
Beatrice set up the gameboards and with Lambda's power it was supposed to be impossible for Bernkastel to win. Beatrice's true intentions were to help Battler. Lambda realized her true intentions and in the end removed her power.

Why would Beatrice get involved with Lambdadelta at all if she already had enough power to create imaginary novel-like worlds?

My theory is that she actually did not have enough power to create these worlds and needed Lambda's power to do it.
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Old 2009-10-03, 03:17   Link #1045
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
We know he's dead, so the only explanation is that he's a figment of Natsuhi's imagination.
No possibility of a "Meta-Kinzo"?
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Old 2009-10-03, 03:18   Link #1046
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Are we sure is was Beatrice that Lambda gave the power to? Did it specify it was Beatrice?
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Old 2009-10-03, 03:21   Link #1047
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
No possibility of a "Meta-Kinzo"?
Yeah, that works too, sorry.
Still, as far as the physical game board is concerned, it doesn't really matter. We know how Natsuhi feels about Kinzo. Whether this Kinzo is her delusion or pure meta doesn't affect the game board.
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Old 2009-10-03, 03:23   Link #1048
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Yeah, that works too, sorry.
Still, as far as the physical game board is concerned, it doesn't really matter. We know how Natsuhi feels about Kinzo. Whether this Kinzo is her delusion or pure meta doesn't affect the game board.
Well yeah, in regards to the gameboard, he's just Natsuhi's delusion.

I was more talking about how he keeps showing up and commenting on stuff, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Takano wanted to become a god not a witch. The girl in the "Lambda's Diary" asked to become a witch and became one by Lambda's power at the end.
Which leaves it as either:

a) Hanyuu (The Voyager Witches have similar powers and are effectively gods).
b) Rika (Wouldn't that be a twist and a half).
Or, most likely, c) Someone completely unrelated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
My theory is that she actually did not have enough power to create these worlds and needed Lambda's power to do it.
Doesn't the Ep3 Tea Party pretty much state this outright? Not in those exact words, but Lambda is the one who made Beato a witch in the first place.

...Actually, couldn't that make her the girl Lambda turned into a witch? Or was that your point?
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Old 2009-10-03, 03:54   Link #1049
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Are we sure is was Beatrice that Lambda gave the power to? Did it specify it was Beatrice?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Doesn't the Ep3 Tea Party pretty much state this outright? Not in those exact words, but Lambda is the one who made Beato a witch in the first place.

...Actually, couldn't that make her the girl Lambda turned into a witch? Or was that your point?
If Beatrice is the girl from the TIPS then she started out as a witch learning from Virgilia but dreamt of becoming a god. That doesn't make sense to me so I don't think Beatrice is the girl from the TIPS. (What if IT'S VIRGILIA??? DUN DUN DUN )

My point is if Beatrice got the power from Lambda then her power can only be less than or equal to that of Lambda. However, Lambda's true power is unknown so Beatrice's power is unknown.
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Old 2009-10-03, 07:23   Link #1050
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Ah, thank you.

Spoiler for size:
I'm not going to say that all or even most of the above guesses are right, but it's nowhere near as hopeless as you're making it out to be. If you're trying to say that we should all stop thinking about possible solutions now, I have to disagree.
Don't misunderstand me, my point is not to demonstrate that ep5 has a lot of plot holes, my point is to demonstrate that the story in the way it has been shown to us was false. By providing alternative truths behind the facts that have been exposed you are not proving my point wrong, actually you are agreeing that the story that we have been shown was full of lies.

Most of the points you make are something that I also considered and are reasonable. there's just a few exceptions. For example you based most of your counters that it wasn't necessary for Erika to prove absolutely her claims, but considering Battler was there it was necessary, else he wouldn't let her to humiliate Natsuhi.
Or for example the secret passage thing. If she couldn't prove they don't exist the discussion would pretty much end there. There was no need for Battler to climb down the third floor.

Anyway the metaworld and the metascenes in ep5 are almost always intertwined with the gameboard so if I dismiss them completely there's very little that remain of the whole account of the events of the Rokkenjima of ep5, what is left I estimate to be around 10%. the rest was outright concealed or covered with lies.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Wait a second, you're willing to accept 9 Knox rules to explain one small facet of the game, but 5 rules to explain the game itself is overly complicated?
We already have 3 different colors of text. Just how simple to you expect the game to be?
Do you think I would ever accept the "theory" that umineko is following the knox rules? There's been people that discussed about those rules even before ep5 but I don't remember anyone taking them so seriously.
Knox rules rules aren't theories now, they are well defined facts stated by the author. The Occam's razor works for theories not for facts. Of course it might happen that you got the right theory, but the more a theory is complicated the higher is the number of theories with the same level of complexity that could explain the phenomenon. So the chance that you got the right one is slim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Cat box. We already know Beatrice can't control things outside of Rokkenjima. Whereas Bernkastel could flit between entire worlds, Beatrice can only exist in and effect a small area in space and time, and furthermore, it's a place that can't be easily observed, meaning the specific events that occur there count for very little.
I agree this is cat box we don't have any certainty about Beatrice's real power, it could be anything, but various hints in the whole story make me thing she has the power of imagination. Else why Beatrice said that Kumasawa was a mage user of a very high level? Under my perspective the hints about "magic = imagination" are so overwhelming that I can't think of any alternative.
On the other side what kind of hints we have that Beatrice has a power related to kakera? I don't think she ever mentioned them once.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Ah, I'm glad you brought this point up. This is actually one of the strongest bits of support my argument has. At the end of the game, Battler proposes one truth and Erika proposes another. The story makes it pretty clear that whoever wins the argument will have their version become the truth. In other words, selecting a single kakera from the remaining possible ones depends on the players from both sides.

To put it simply, this is the whole point of the "game" part of the game, and the only explanation I can see which gives the game any real meaning.
But how can you explain this without magic or a difficult scientific explanation? The metaworld is acceptable as long as it doesn't effect the real world, but what you are saying here is that from the metaworld you define the real world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Edit: I just realized that with your theory, the red text does not always tell the truth. If that's the case, there's almost no point in continuing this series...
Ah this is one of the most important point of my interpretation. The red truth doesn't need to relate to the real world it can also relate to the fictional world created by Beatrice.

Btw your theory also imply a modification of the concept behind the red truth. According to your perspective the red truth is not bound to reality but affects it.
I can see why you came up with this interpretation, this fits well with the trial that was shown in ep5. However it looks to me that this defy the original purpose. Beatrice created the red truth to help Battler, so a "truth" had to exist. Battler needs to find the truth, not to create one.
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Old 2009-10-03, 08:36   Link #1051
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
If Beatrice is the girl from the TIPS then she started out as a witch learning from Virgilia but dreamt of becoming a god. That doesn't make sense to me so I don't think Beatrice is the girl from the TIPS. (What if IT'S VIRGILIA??? DUN DUN DUN )
but there were 2 girls in the tips.
in the tips, 34 met a girl who wanted to become a god, granted her wish, and later met another girl who wanted to become a witch and reminded her of the first one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro
Are we sure is was Beatrice that Lambda gave the power to? Did it specify it was Beatrice?
Spoiler for EP3 Teaparty:

Last edited by desirebluesky; 2009-10-03 at 08:56.
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Old 2009-10-03, 08:50   Link #1052
Marion
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Beatrice set up the gameboards and with Lambda's power it was supposed to be impossible for Bernkastel to win. Beatrice's true intentions were to help Battler. Lambda realized her true intentions and in the end removed her power.

Why would Beatrice get involved with Lambdadelta at all if she already had enough power to create imaginary novel-like worlds?

My theory is that she actually did not have enough power to create these worlds and needed Lambda's power to do it.
Well yeah that's pretty obvious in EP 4 when it's outright stated that Beatrice needed MARIA to keep her Golden Land alive and when the latter left the entire world crumbled.
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Old 2009-10-03, 08:56   Link #1053
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I guess it all depends on how you look at the magic world. Does it really exist or is it a metaphor? If it is a metaphor the fact that Lambda made Beatrice a "witch" only means that Beatrice without the strong will and determination that Lambda represent won't be able to maintain the magic delusion she created.
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Old 2009-10-03, 17:22   Link #1054
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Takano wanted to become a god not a witch. The girl in the "Lambda's Diary" asked to become a witch and became one by Lambda's power at the end.
Two girls got mentioned in Lambda's diary. The first one asked "certainty that her efforts would pay off and she'd become a god". The second one asked to be "recognised as a witch". So, the first girl could easily be Takano and the second one Beatrice.
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Old 2009-10-03, 18:48   Link #1055
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Spoiler for size:
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Last edited by chronotrig; 2009-10-03 at 19:05.
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Old 2009-10-04, 02:28   Link #1056
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Spoiler for size:
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Old 2009-10-04, 17:33   Link #1057
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Spoiler for size:
Spoiler for Long theory:

Well, this theory is half-assed in any cases...
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Old 2009-10-04, 17:44   Link #1058
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eh, not bad if you ask me ^^
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Old 2009-10-04, 18:10   Link #1059
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antera Caramichael View Post
Spoiler for Long theory:

Well, this theory is half-assed in any cases...
Personally, I disagree with this theory, purely because

Spoiler for Episode 4 Spoilers:
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Old 2009-10-05, 01:25   Link #1060
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You know, what if her real name is Maria? Rosa did say Kinzo didn't like her naming her child that way. While that on itself says little, the fact "Beatrice" used Maria's name in those letters strike me as odd. It might just be a big coincidence, though.

There's also a character who's first kanji can be somewhat interchanged with Maria's first kanji. All the same, this character was mentioned only once (in narrative). So, I think this would be too much of a stretch.
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