AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2009-10-04, 01:36   Link #81
ChibiBear
Aim's Stalker ^_~
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Australia
Age: 19
Send a message via MSN to ChibiBear
LOL! Good one XD So maybe not bloodstream?
__________________
Meow meow nano desu~ Nipah~
ChibiBear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-04, 01:43   Link #82
Dlanor .A. Nox
The Death!
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Purgatorio
Interesting when I followed....downstream I got feet, the key that the two told of (the feet) was ground -_-;;; the island Rokkenjima I doubt that's it.
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic100082_1.gif
Dlanor .A. Nox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-04, 02:02   Link #83
ChibiBear
Aim's Stalker ^_~
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Australia
Age: 19
Send a message via MSN to ChibiBear
Yeah, I thought feet as well, but I couldn't think of anything that they could tell us of...
__________________
Meow meow nano desu~ Nipah~
ChibiBear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-04, 02:10   Link #84
Dlanor .A. Nox
The Death!
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Purgatorio
see this is why I cut the theory from my line of reasoning -_- it's useless to use the human anatomy. Unless it's referring to the portrait of Beatrice since it shows the human body, even then.....nothing.
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic100082_1.gif
Dlanor .A. Nox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-04, 02:13   Link #85
ChibiBear
Aim's Stalker ^_~
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Australia
Age: 19
Send a message via MSN to ChibiBear
Since it seems to be Japanese wordplay, I think that the actual words that are used are the important part... I'm not really sure if I phrased that correctly...
__________________
Meow meow nano desu~ Nipah~
ChibiBear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-04, 02:30   Link #86
KoiYuki
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: USA
Age: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox View Post
I was thinking of the human anatomy for a bit toying around with this idea as it can be a river (blood stream)
I thought of blood stream too. My first theory went like this..
My beloved hometown (My body)
the sweetfish river running through it (The sweet blood running through it)
follow its path downstream and seek the key. (For some reason, I linked this to a heart, as it was like the base of the 'river' or whatever)

But it really didn't make much sense in the end..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I had thought about the bloodstream theory as well, the problem is that if you follow it "down"... and you look for "shore" the "two" will tell you of, make me think about Johnny!!!! 6 letters!!! XD

No no there's no way that's the key!!! °_°
A nice ol' 'village' of hair in that area, huh? Golden hair..

God, I really want to solve this thing! I keep trying, but now the only thing really stopping me is that I can't read the kanji itself!
__________________
KoiYuki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-04, 02:46   Link #87
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Anyway, don't digress, Atlas! You must not doubt that! °_°

Maybe this will help. here is a list of "facts" about the river. Actually they aren't "facts" but hints, most of them are probably true, but some might be deceiving. Anyway the "river" should fit with the most of them to be valid:

1) it is something around the line of a family tree
2) there are things that can go up and down on it
3) you can find it in an atlas
4) it goes through a village, or many villages (whatever "village" means)
5) it has a connection with the sea (whatever "sea" means)
6) it is not a river
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-04, 03:41   Link #88
batpig
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Random speculation is random:

Spoiler:

Last edited by batpig; 2009-10-04 at 04:16.
batpig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-04, 04:16   Link #89
Christen
Endless Nine
*Artist
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: In a certain tropical island
Age: 29
If it plays around with a map, would the "journey" along the map, make up an initial Japanese character we can play around? Like writing an actual Japanese character in a a map?

Then Kinzo's love for western might indicate the word can be converted into romaji.
Christen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-04, 06:05   Link #90
chounokoe
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Düsseldorf, Germany
Age: 30
Send a message via MSN to chounokoe Send a message via Skype™ to chounokoe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I had thought about the bloodstream theory as well, the problem is that if you follow it "down"... and you look for "shore" the "two" will tell you of, make me think about Johnny!!!! 6 letters!!! XD

No no there's no way that's the key!!! °_°
The funny thing is, I thought of thinking along that line of reasoning, too.
Because Young Eva insisted so much on the riddle being childish and the need to throw away the admiration of Kinzo.
There are many riddles and jokes among japanese children that rely on very dirty puns, so it may be that the riddle is so easy, so childish, that nobody would solve it like that considering it's rather dignified form.

If you search around the epitaph, you find other body related things.
懐 in 懐かしき if read ふところ is also bosom or breast.
So if you would follow that line of reasoning an これを下りて鍵を探せ (Step down from there and search the key) we would follow the 川 (river) which we associated as bloodstream.
川を下がれば、やがて里があり (If we follow that river down, before long there is a village/the home of one's parents), but 里 is also just simply the 'place of one's origin'...well we can all think what that would refer to.
その里に二人が口にし岸を探れ (In this 'home' search/feel around for the shore that two are speaking of/taking into their mouth)...this is maybe the most abstract part of the poem, still we have the 二人, two unspecified people, and they 'speak of', 'take into their mouth's' or 'eat', but 口 could also be another hint as it is also a hole or an orifice. 

The problem is, if those Kanji could really lead us around in an Atlas.
I really have to read that scene again to see if there are more hints hidden in certain words even not taken from the epitaph.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Li Jianliang
Remember to disregard things built after 1980's at least on the Google map, and to look for things that have fallen into disuse or otherwise removed from general maps since. A lot of things have come and gone in the past 3+ decades.
The problem with that is, that many things may have been wiped of maps and heavily refurbished since then...and we have to consider that Eva may have looked it up in an Atlas that went back to Kinzo's youth, which would again be totally different as even the heavy refurbishment through the Americans did not yet happen.
If anyone knows a good site that collects older maps, I think we would all be a bit happier.

We all have to take into account too, that Ryukishi only said that the Epitaph is SOLVABLE...that could also mean we would have to have the same preposition and access to certain books as for example Eva.
__________________
愛が無ければ・・・視えない!!
chounokoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-04, 07:08   Link #91
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
That's the reason why I think the book Eva is looking is not something too specific, but a generic common atlas. The book archive was also said to be a place where books that weren't of particular interest for Kinzo where stored. In othe words they are all pretty common books you can find anywhere.

@batpig: your reasoning is interesting, but don't make the mistake of feeling excited for finding some names that seem to redirect to the epitaph. This issomething I learned after many research looking at japanese atlas, I can find the kanji used in the firt portion of the epitaph everywhere. It looks like those are very commonly used in name of cities and places. There' like a thousand of places that have the kanji of "sato" and "kishi" in them XD
There are also a lot of places that have numerals from one to ten.

This is probably not casual, probably it is so because the epitaph actually refer to geographic places, however the fact that many places in the whole country have those kanji doesn't help.

Anyway I'm interest in the street analogy. But first I need to know of city maps are commonly included in japanese atlas. or if the word used by eva for "atlas" could also mean a city map (though the book Eva is looking at in the anime doesn't look like one). There is also the problem of which "street" would she pick among all of them.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-04, 08:00   Link #92
Chadauw
...
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: France
Age: 24
I remember trying to solve the epitaph quite some time ago...

I was thinking that "the two" were Shannon and Kanon (as their names were given by Kinzo).

I tried to find a solution based on the Shannon river in Ireland. If we follow it's path downstream, we can find a town also named Shannon, and near the shore there is an island called Kannon island (iirc). I remember trying to find a six-letters-long word using the other names of the island .

Well, it's pretty sure this line of reasoning isn't correct, after all it seems the river isn't a real river.

Something along the line of a family tree... The first things that comes to mind with the Ushiromiya family is the ranking system used for the family or the one used for the servants...
Chadauw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-04, 08:10   Link #93
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
My very first interpretation of the first part of the epitaph was as follow:

the homeland is planet earth
the river is the whole water mass
If you go down you find the Antarctica continent (village)

Then I got pretty much stucked there until I found out that "Kuchinishi" can also mean "to be eaten by". There are two large gulfs in the antarctica that resemble two mouths. The "shore" they are "eating" is an "ice shelf".

However I couldn't find any way to change it into 6 characters, "tanagoori" is the japanese word. And In the end I don't think this is the right solution anyway. Too bad because it does fit with Eva's reasoning for the most part, and it is a very simple childish solution ^^;
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-04, 09:29   Link #94
batpig
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
@Jan-Poo

You're absolutely right, hence my disclaimer at the bottom XD. It's just been really helpful to read everyone's theories + thought process, so I wanted to share mine before I forget.

Another huge flaw with my idea is that a number of other kanjis would work to get my result, but it seems vitally important that it is "sato".

Spoiler for Eva's reasoning:


But as you say, as long as this can describe any street in any given city, then the whole theory falls apart. (Not having an insider's knowledge of Kinzo like Eva is a huge disadvantage ) I wonder what else you can see on a map that would immediately reminds you of "sato".

Can anyone confirm from the Japanese version of the game whether Eva specifically says "atlas" or does she say "map". I wonder too if it could be a specialized map or something. (i.e. natural resource map? river = flow of the resources. Or a more rational example, railway map.)

I also wonder about the last part of the epitaph that is really glossed over by the characters. Obviously, at that point they'd already have the gold and wouldn't care about everything else. But why does Kinzo even include it? Is it just to make it read like a ritual? For example, "One shall be, the resurrection of the souls of all the dead." could mean if you take the letters that have been "killed" and rearrange them, you'll get an additional message?
batpig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-04, 10:51   Link #95
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
the word used is "地図帳" everywhere you look at it's always translated as "atlas" with no other options (which is rare!) ^^;
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-04, 11:24   Link #96
chounokoe
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Düsseldorf, Germany
Age: 30
Send a message via MSN to chounokoe Send a message via Skype™ to chounokoe
Well yeah I looked it up, it really was just a 地図帳, an Atlas or if you would translate it literally a Map-Book or Map-Register...so anything apart from an actual Atlas seems to be out of question too...

So it really has to be something on a map that is somehow connected to 鮎 and 川 in the vicinity of something related to 里 ... the problem now is, we don't know what kind of map she is looking at.
It can't be a map of Rokkenjima, because Ryukishi said it was solvable and if it was a riddle made as a child or youth, then Kinzo wasn't even on Rokkenjima when he created the epitaph.

So we're back at the start...or better running in circles...wondering what 故郷 it could be where there can be something on a map where 鮎 are found in a 川...maybe there is a town in the vicinity of his birthplace ending with 川 and having 鮎 in it...
Right now I even thought about taking 鮎 apart and forming 魚 and 占. Sadly the only thing that found was, that the Ayu Kanji only exists in Japan as it seems. 
__________________
愛が無ければ・・・視えない!!
chounokoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-04, 14:36   Link #97
Li Jianliang
This is my ____ face
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: In front of my laptop
Age: 26
Send a message via AIM to Li Jianliang Send a message via MSN to Li Jianliang Send a message via Yahoo to Li Jianliang Send a message via Skype™ to Li Jianliang
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
1) it is something around the line of a family tree
2) there are things that can go up and down on it
3) you can find it in an atlas
4) it goes through a village, or many villages (whatever "village" means)
5) it has a connection with the sea (whatever "sea" means)
6) it is not a river
I tried the family tree thing and found, after days of research, it's a dead end (I could not get past the 'shore'). It's definitely not the family tree in my opinion.

I looked at a general map of Japan via Google Maps, and the only things I could see going up and down are:
Spoiler:
Spoiler for working off assumption:
Beyond the above speculation I have not found or figured out what the 'village' (里) is, so I'm stuck again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
The problem with that is, that many things may have been wiped of maps and heavily refurbished since then...and we have to consider that Eva may have looked it up in an Atlas that went back to Kinzo's youth, which would again be totally different as even the heavy refurbishment through the Americans did not yet happen.
If anyone knows a good site that collects older maps, I think we would all be a bit happier.
Indeed, I'm going to try checking with the local and university libraries to see if they have an older map of Japan. Google is being too helpful. Every time I try to search for 'kyou' (郷) or 'village' (里), it keeps directing me to nursing homes ('Roujin Home: _____ no Kyou/Sato)'.
__________________
Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru episode 5: End of the golden witch
Translations & summaries & a billion screenshots
Part I | Part II | Part III | Part IV | Part V | Part VI | Part VII | Part VIII | Part IX | Part X | Part XI | Part XII In progress

Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru episode 6: Dawn of the golden witch
Translations & summaries & screenshots
Part I | Part II In progress

Last edited by Li Jianliang; 2009-10-04 at 16:06.
Li Jianliang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-04, 14:59   Link #98
June 1983
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Warwick, RI
Age: 31
I also think the "sweetfish river" might refer to a road, as well. If it's something that goes up and down, can be seen on a map, and ISN'T a literal river, what else could it be? It needs to have some kind of resonance, literal or metaphorical, with a "family tree" as well. Possibly due to a name associated with it or something near it, or something to do with its historical significance?

One of the things that interests me about this part of the riddle is "shore", which, from Eva's dialogue was clearly an important of solving the meaning. The reason I find it so interesting is because "kishi" is a word Ryukishi has played around with before, in one of Frederica Bernkastel's poems ("There is only one thing that I seek./ What I would obtain will either be the kishi (shore), or shiki (my death)."). There are lots of other resonances with Umineko in the Bernkastel poems, so I can't help but wonder if there is some kind of clue here.

The other interesting part of the riddle to me the "gouge and kill" sections. Unfortunately, I just don't know Japanese and so I can't grasp what's going on here as much as I wish but I what I assume is going on here is that the anatomical body parts refer to either kanji character or PARTS of the characters which can perhaps be removed, turning them into different characters all together. I don't know ... but I feel there has to be some kind of weird Japanese pun, joke, riddle, or child's game which connects these parts of the body with kanji formations.
June 1983 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-04, 15:40   Link #99
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Eh... so in the end you also reach to that conclusion. I didn't tell until now, because I didn't want to affect your own reasoning, but in the end I also couldn't find anything that can fit better the description other than a street or a railway.

The toukaidou line has been tried already, I've even found it in the tea party forum of ryukishi's website. If you try that way you end to a city named senrioka 千里丘 and the previous station is named kishibe 岸辺. However no one was able to get past this point, so maybe the toukaidou isn't the right one.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-05, 00:45   Link #100
Ithekro
Space Battlecarrier
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 37
Hmmm. The line of reasoning being used right now would suggest people are to be looking for a place on a map.

This would seem incorrect. Using the wordplay to find a path of words on a map leading to something that is the "key" to the Golden Land. Also the key to "their youth". Whatever the word or item is, it would seem to point to a location of the island itself where the gold is hidden, even though the altas would not be pointing to the island at all. It also must be something that, in retrospect, is obvious, since Eva sort of clicked on it as soon as she saw the word/location on the altas.

Thus it must be something relatively simply...once one knows where to look. It also must be somewhere on the island...since Eva can't leave the island.

"The 'shore' the two will tell you of"? What does this get anyone? 千丘
__________________
Dessler Soto, Banzai!
Ithekro is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:28.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.