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Old 2009-10-03, 06:32   Link #41
HayashiTakara
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benoit View Post
I wouldn't mind the elemental spirits. What I would mind is making them an important part of the plot, which in Tales of Symphonia seemed like an excuse to insert extra dungeons to lengthen the game without much story.
Please, not much story? how about
Spoiler for ToS / ToS2:
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Old 2009-10-04, 09:54   Link #42
Benoit
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I haven't played ToS: Dawn of the New World yet (waiting for PAL release). I'm assuming there are some spoilers for that game in the spoiler block.
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Old 2009-10-04, 21:24   Link #43
Kariko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
Please, not much story? how about
Spoiler for ToS / ToS2:
There, I took out the last sentence in the spoiler box which was the ToS2 spoiler, the rest of it is safe if you finished the first game.

I'm still not sure how combat will play out on the Wii. From the trailer, it looked really impressive but when I played ToS2, I kept thinking that the Remote+Seperate Nunchuk didn't feel right for a Tales game, having the Tech button on the back and Block on your left hand for example. Not to mention the lack of enough properly placed buttons too.

Gamecube controller support anyone?
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Old 2009-10-04, 21:59   Link #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kariko View Post
There, I took out the last sentence in the spoiler box which was the ToS2 spoiler, the rest of it is safe if you finished the first game.

I'm still not sure how combat will play out on the Wii. From the trailer, it looked really impressive but when I played ToS2, I kept thinking that the Remote+Seperate Nunchuk didn't feel right for a Tales game, having the Tech button on the back and Block on your left hand for example. Not to mention the lack of enough properly placed buttons too.

Gamecube controller support anyone?
personally i loved playing with the nun-chuck and wii-mote, it was awkward at first but then it felt natural.
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Old 2009-10-05, 09:11   Link #45
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Thanks Kariko. Unfortunately, when I wanted to reply to the original post, the full text was there again. AARGH!

Anyway.

HayashiTakara, you don't understand. I said myself that they are an important part of the plot. What I'm arguing is that making them an important part of the plot seemed like an excuse to visit each Summon Spirit's dungeon, so they could make the game longer. This wouldn't have been a problem if these visits were woven into the story. Instead you beat each dungeon one by one, with no character or story development except for an arc clumsily stuffed between two of them.
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Old 2009-10-05, 10:08   Link #46
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Not much story with TOS ? you're kinding . This opus is one of the best Tales Of series ....
Damn , TOS2 is on the wii , i should get a wii first to play it ..

Anyway , seems that Tales of Graces will be longer of all the series .
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Old 2009-10-05, 12:46   Link #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benoit View Post
Thanks Kariko. Unfortunately, when I wanted to reply to the original post, the full text was there again. AARGH!

Anyway.

HayashiTakara, you don't understand. I said myself that they are an important part of the plot. What I'm arguing is that making them an important part of the plot seemed like an excuse to visit each Summon Spirit's dungeon, so they could make the game longer. This wouldn't have been a problem if these visits were woven into the story. Instead you beat each dungeon one by one, with no character or story development except for an arc clumsily stuffed between two of them.
Wow, are you serious? are you seriously serious? you don't even know what you're talking about.
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Old 2009-10-06, 13:50   Link #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Sho-
Not much story with TOS ? you're kinding .
You misread my posts. I did not say that the game has not much story. I'm talking about a part of it.
Quote:
Wow, are you serious? are you seriously serious? you don't even know what you're talking about.
Yes, I am serious. I do know what I'm talking about. I've completed the game twice so far. Now, will you provide an actual counter-point, or has it been so long that you've played the game that it looks like I pulled what I said out of thin air?
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Old 2009-10-06, 15:27   Link #49
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I see what you're saying. Basically, including a bunch of elemental spirits ends up being an excuse for "filler" dungeons that don't need much plot to accompany them. The plot just has to say "now we have to get the rest of the spirits" and suddenly 3 new dungeons appear that don't serve much individual narrative purpose. In some ways, you could say that they took one dungeon's worth of plot and spread it out over 8 dungeons or whatever.

Well, I think another solution would simply be to not put each spirit in its own dungeon...
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Old 2009-10-06, 16:29   Link #50
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I found some information about how the whole battle system is going to be like though I just grabbed it from the official Tales forum. Kudos to the guy who posted it. I think it's based on the demo from TGS but I don't know the specifics.

Spoiler for Battle System:


On the subject of elemental spirits, I honestly hope they don't make it into this game. I think it's a cool concept and all but, if they plan to make it where you must go to x dungeon in order to unlock y spirit, they should just scrap it altogether. Should they be more creative in approaching the elemental spirits, I won't complain.
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Old 2009-10-07, 01:18   Link #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benoit View Post
You misread my posts. I did not say that the game has not much story. I'm talking about a part of it.

Yes, I am serious. I do know what I'm talking about. I've completed the game twice so far. Now, will you provide an actual counter-point, or has it been so long that you've played the game that it looks like I pulled what I said out of thin air?
Oh? how about i break down for you? I was so addicted to the game it was almost unnatural. I've played through to see every Flanoir and Heimdall scene in the game, I even played it multiple times afterwards to see Sheena's and Presea's scenes cause I couldn't remember which save data it was that had those scenes saved.

Don't try to tell me what's what. If you're serious about this, I'll break down everything that happens in relations to the summon spirits and how it effects the story and characters.
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Old 2009-10-07, 09:38   Link #52
Benoit
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Clarste nailed what I was trying to say. You seem to still be misunderstanding. I'm not saying the summon spirits are not important to the plot, but making them so was a ploy to lengthen the game without much in the way of narrative. How is that so hard to understand?
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Old 2009-10-07, 11:29   Link #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benoit View Post
Clarste nailed what I was trying to say. You seem to still be misunderstanding. I'm not saying the summon spirits are not important to the plot, but making them so was a ploy to lengthen the game without much in the way of narrative. How is that so hard to understand?
What you're bitching about is basically what every freaking RPG in the entire universe does. Hell just trying to get to a town usually involves running through a 2hour dungeon with no purpose other than to "lengthen the game."

Then tell me, how would you do it? Have one dungeon with all the summon spirits packed into one bottle just to avoid going to the other shrines for your convenience?

And what you're not getting also is that there is plenty of motive and narrative to go to all of the dungeons in the game. Its not "lets go make a pact with Sylph for the shit of it! YAY dur dur dur!"
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Old 2009-10-07, 14:07   Link #54
Clarste
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You could get spirits in towns, for one... It makes sense for shrines to be in towns, right?

Anyway, I see your point about all dungeons existing primarily to lengthen the game, but you're really misrepresenting the opposing position for some reason. There's a difference between "hey, there's a mountain path in the way to the town we need to go to" and "hey, we need to collect all these spirits to make the whatever that opens the door to the tower of doom, so here's 8 dungeons scattered across the world." It's just a matter of degree.

Last edited by Clarste; 2009-10-07 at 22:26.
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Old 2009-10-07, 21:30   Link #55
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The new control systems seems...unique. The Up and Down to move thing has me scratching my head though. o_o
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Old 2009-10-08, 02:14   Link #56
HayashiTakara
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
You could get spirits in towns, for one... It makes sense for shrines to be in towns, right?

Anyway, I see your point about all dungeons existing primarily to lengthen the game, but you're really misrepresenting the opposing position for some reason. There's a difference between "hey, there's a mountain path in the way to the town we need to go to" and "hey, we need to collect all these spirits to make the whatever that opens the door to the tower of doom, so here's 8 dungeons scattered across the world." It's just a matter of degree.
This is where your logic falls apart in this instance. You're insinuating that everything is shallow and have no purpose other than being a dungeon. You're basically wanting to change the story to fit your own perspective of how it should be done.

If I must I'll break down every single dungeon, summon spirit, and character driven aspect between each one.

Lets start with the obvious one;

The summon spirits served as a mana link between the two worlds. The world which was originally one, Mithos severed the world to ensure its survival using the eternal sword which was a symbol of his contract with Origin the king of all summons. The stabalize the separated world the summon spirits act as guardians of sorts that controls the mana flow between the worlds.

Now, through some course of events through the story, the party believed that to stop the competition for mana between Sylvarant and Tethe'alla, separating the two worlds would be the best options. And the only way to sever these mana flows is to form the pacts with the summon spirits on both sides, since forming that pact breaks the original pact they had with Mithos and thus removing them from their job controlling the flow of mana. Are you following me so far?

Now lets get more detailed with each summon spirit.

Volt: Volt is the summon spirit that traumatized Sheena since she was 6 yrs old, involved in the massacre of her village due to her failure in forming a pact. Ever since then she lacked self confidence and has always felt astranged by her fellow villagers because of it.

Since they needed the pact with Volt, Sheena is forced to make a pact with him. Lloyd and Corrine promised her that they'll protect her and it'll be ok. During the summoning process, things went haywire again, causing the death of Corrine her once only friend in the world. Through Lloyd's words and Corrine's sacrifice Sheena finally built up the courage to force Volt into submission. Volt is also the summon spirit used pretty much as a non-exhausting power source for the Rheairds.

Pretty massive character development wouldn't you say?

Undine: During Collete's journey of regeneration, they ran into a situation where the unicorn's horn was needed to save a life, so that they gain more information to save those enslaved by the Desian's. During this process is when Sheena who was once out to assassinate Collete, joined the party for a common cause. Problem is, the unicorn slumbered deep within a massive lake. So a contract with Undine is necessary. This one is rather easy since it required going through a dungeon that you already completed once for Collete, so all you had to do was take 5 mins to run to the back.

Other than obtaining Sheena as a party member, which is important within itself. You also get some funny tidbits like how Sheena and Collete were virgins and Raine was not.

Ifrit: This one wasn't involving since it simply required you to run through the games first dungeon which takes like 2 seconds and beat Ifrit. The only excuse was that the contract was necessary. Sylph was the same. Its simply something that only took a few minutes to take care of.

Shadow: The same with other summons he was a necessity as well. This time we get some Presea development. The party would first require a special candle to even be able to see inside the Temple of Darkness. A group of half-elf scientist are the only ones that have it, and in order to get it. The scientist demanded that first they rescue Kathrine who is also a half-elf and daughter of the pope of the church of martel, who's also the one that put his own daughter on deathrow for helping the party escape from confinement earlier in the story.

Kathrine is also one of the lead scientist whos responsible for Presea having the faux Cruxis Crystal, which robbed her of her emotions and make her lose years of her life as well. This development forced Presea to confront and make peace with someone that ruined her life.

On top of that the Temple of Darkness also has a dreadness to it that beckons to Presea, which is a prelude only to a side story but interesting nonetheless.

Celsius: hmm... all in all, I can't really think of anything major dealing with her other than her necessity and her interaction with Ifrit is rather interesting. Also the introduction to Flanoir, and the doctor there who would play a major role later.

Asuka/Luna: Again you go up a tower that you've completed already so a bum rush to the top avoiding the enemies will take a matter of seconds. Its when you reach the top is when you are confronted by Kratos again, who warns you of the dangers of separating the worlds. Nothing too major but foreshadowing is important, and everyone loves seeing Kratos

Gnome, the final summon, it was after this pact was formed is when the mistake was realized. It was here that separating the worlds wasn't the right thing to do. Although nothing majorly character developing, but it impacted the story drastically since it was a major turning point.

Origin: Frankly the most important summon in the whole game, without him bounding to Lloyd and Sheena, the game wouldn't have a happy ending.

The power of the summon spirits was also responsible for stopping the world tree from destroying the world later as the party's plan B failed.

All in all, everything played in important some more than others. Still important nonetheless. Making the locations of summon spirits, in locations like towns is retarded considering that these are beings that are responsible for the construction of the world in the first place. Having them exist in ancient temple ruins that were built to worship them makes a lot more sense.

All I'm seeing is that you just want everything easier for your own convenience. And not appreciating all the Z skits and dialogues between the characters as you venture through these dungeons.
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Old 2009-10-08, 02:22   Link #57
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So... by your own admission Celcius, Luna, and Gnome were kinda filler, and Ifrit and Sylph were just minor wastes of time.

No one has said that all spirits are fundamentally plotless. You keep assuming people have said that. It's just been noted that they have a tendency to make for some meaningless dungeons, which you admit exist. Heck, 3 was exactly the number I gave in my original example off the top of my head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
Basically, including a bunch of elemental spirits ends up being an excuse for "filler" dungeons that don't need much plot to accompany them. The plot just has to say "now we have to get the rest of the spirits" and suddenly 3 new dungeons appear that don't serve much individual narrative purpose.
That's what I said. My "logic" is not "falling apart", in fact you're supporting it.

Edit: I feel you're being overly defensive towards a perceived insult about something you like. No one is insulting the plot of ToS, certainly not to the degree you seem to think they are.
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Old 2009-10-08, 02:38   Link #58
NoLongerSane
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Excorsism View Post
I found some information about how the whole battle system is going to be like though I just grabbed it from the official Tales forum. Kudos to the guy who posted it. I think it's based on the demo from TGS but I don't know the specifics.

Spoiler for Battle System:


On the subject of elemental spirits, I honestly hope they don't make it into this game. I think it's a cool concept and all but, if they plan to make it where you must go to x dungeon in order to unlock y spirit, they should just scrap it altogether. Should they be more creative in approaching the elemental spirits, I won't complain.
This is an interesting battle system. May take some time to get the jist on how it works when this is released. Don't mind, though, since I am going to spend the majority of hours on the fist play through.
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Old 2009-10-08, 03:01   Link #59
HayashiTakara
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
So... by your own admission Celcius, Luna, and Gnome were kinda filler, and Ifrit and Sylph were just minor wastes of time.

No one has said that all spirits are fundamentally plotless. You keep assuming people have said that. It's just been noted that they have a tendency to make for some meaningless dungeons, which you admit exist. Heck, 3 was exactly the number I gave in my original example off the top of my head.



That's what I said. My "logic" is not "falling apart", in fact you're supporting it.

Edit: I feel you're being overly defensive towards a perceived insult about something you like. No one is insulting the plot of ToS, certainly not to the degree you seem to think they are.
You are insulting it, you're insinuating that the dungeons serve no developing purpose other than to extend the length of the game. Which I prove it wasn't. And how is Celsius and the few others considered filler? it seems to me you just want things to be effortless.

Your statement within itself is hypocritical. How can something be important to the plot and be a waste of time at the same time. That is the point that fails as any kind of logic.
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Old 2009-10-08, 03:12   Link #60
Clarste
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Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
You are insulting it, you're insinuating that the dungeons serve no developing purpose other than to extend the length of the game. Which I prove it wasn't. And how is Celsius and the few others considered filler? it seems to me you just want things to be effortless.

Your statement within itself is hypocritical. How can something be important to the plot and be a waste of time at the same time. That is the point that fails as any kind of logic.
You just said they weren't! I was using your post as my basis! Your description of Gnome is:

Quote:
the final summon, it was after this pact was formed is when the mistake was realized. It was here that separating the worlds wasn't the right thing to do. Although nothing majorly character developing, but it impacted the story drastically since it was a major turning point.
IE: Absolutely nothing that has anything to do with Gnome. It could've happened earlier, with any of them. It could've happened with the first one, if all the other stuff hadn't happened (not that that would make any sense in this particular case). It just wasn't... important, on its own merits. It was simply the last of a series of Plot Coupons.

Tales of Symphonia is one of my favorite RPGs ever. That doesn't mean it's perfect, and even if it was perfect I wouldn't want all its sequels to be identical to it. It just happens to have this minor flaw that can be easily solved.

Edit: How about we think of it this way. Less spirits, not no spirits. Would the plot of ToS be significantly different had there been 2-3 less spirits? I say no, it would be almost exactly the same. Do you disagree?
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