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Old 2009-10-05, 01:27   Link #1061
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
You know, what if her real name is Maria? Rosa did say Kinzo didn't like her naming her child that way. While that on itself says little, the fact "Beatrice" used Maria's name in those letters strike me as odd. It might just be a big coincidence.
Beatrice's real name is "Maria Ushiromiya"?

...So, um. That would mean that she's Kinzo's daughter after all, right?
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Old 2009-10-05, 01:43   Link #1062
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Not necessarily. She could also be adopted, but unlike the other children from Kinzo's orphanage, she received the Ushiromiya family name.

I think there are chances she may be adopted, since more than once, she's referred to herself as the Ushiromiya family's furniture. She does have the one-winged eagle mark on her right leg, after all. Additionally, Ronove in EP3 said "That is why furniture is so frightening. Sometimes they even become witches, and treat demons as butlers."

All the same, this still sounds like too big of a stretch. This is just an idea I wanted to point out.
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Old 2009-10-05, 02:15   Link #1063
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
You know, what if her real name is Maria? Rosa did say Kinzo didn't like her naming her child that way. While that on itself says little, the fact "Beatrice" used Maria's name in those letters strike me as odd. It might just be a big coincidence, though.

There's also a character who's first kanji can be somewhat interchanged with Maria's first kanji. All the same, this character was mentioned only once (in narrative). So, I think this would be too much of a stretch.
You know, if we take the EP5 Tea Party at face value, all meta-characters including Beato need to have a vessel of some sort, where a vessel is some object that still exists at the time (which is why we never see 556).

Maybe the connection here is that Maria is Beatrice's vessel...which would also explain why we see Beato in plenty of past scenes, but not a single 1998 scene, whereas the stakes are able to remain somehow.
Still a pretty weak theory, I guess...
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Old 2009-10-05, 02:53   Link #1064
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Not necessarily. She could also be adopted, but unlike the other children from Kinzo's orphanage, she received the Ushiromiya family name.
That means Battler can still sleep with her, awesome.

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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Additionally, Ronove in EP3 said "That is why furniture is so frightening. Sometimes they even become witches, and treat demons as butlers."
I noticed that line on my first playthrough, but didn't really register it until now.

...It's probably important.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
You know, if we take the EP5 Tea Party at face value, all meta-characters including Beato need to have a vessel of some sort, where a vessel is some object that still exists at the time (which is why we never see 556).
What about Ronove and Virigilia? Their vessels are clearly Genji and Kumasawa, but they die in every game...

...Maybe if the vessel is a living creature, it doesn't have to be alive, merely intact?

Also, Maria being Beato's vessel makes an odd kind of sense, given the symbology behind Maria's hat and all... but the handwriting is still an issue. Unless we accept that a six-year-old Maria can have handwriting that adult and detailed, Beato can't be just a figment of Maria's imagination.
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Old 2009-10-05, 03:05   Link #1065
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Also, Maria being Beato's vessel makes an odd kind of sense, given the symbology behind Maria's hat and all... but the handwriting is still an issue. Unless we accept that a six-year-old Maria can have handwriting that adult and detailed, Beato can't be just a figment of Maria's imagination.
Maria being Beatrice's vessel makes sense for eps 1 to 4. When Maria dies either the game is about to end or another witch takes over.

But Maria gets killed in the first twilight in episode 5 and Beatrice is still around defending Natsuhi.
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Old 2009-10-05, 03:09   Link #1066
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Maybe the connection here is that Maria is Beatrice's vessel...which would also explain why we see Beato in plenty of past scenes, but not a single 1998 scene, whereas the stakes are able to remain somehow.
Still a pretty weak theory, I guess...
There's no need for her to show up during 1998, I believe. Mammon was there because Ange had her stake, and the rest were able to be summoned through Maria's grimoire (coupled with Ange's imagination, I guess - unless there were designs for them).

Maria (the one who wrote the letters) did say she'd probably be dead by the time these letters were found. So, she probably was a victim of the massacre in Rokkenjima as well. Obviously, she'd never show up during 1998.

If we go to the "sin scene" in EP4 - and if we go by the assumption that Battler's point of view is reliable - then that person was definitely a human Beatrice. In fact, that person seemed to know Battler from some time ago, since she did know about his use of English catch-phrases. However, we know Battler had nothing to do with "Beatrice" 6 years ago. All the same, judging Beatrice's reaction, it'd seem it had something to do with her. So, if we take into account "Beatrice" is a title, perhaps, one would be able to say that, 6 years ago, she wasn't "Beatrice" yet.

It is indeed a weak theory, but there are hints. For example, aside from what I've already mentioned, in "Notes from a certain cook," you can tell something odd is going on in Rokkenjima, and that the servants seem to be hiding something/someone.
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Old 2009-10-05, 03:17   Link #1067
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
What about Ronove and Virigilia? Their vessels are clearly Genji and Kumasawa, but they die in every game...

...Maybe if the vessel is a living creature, it doesn't have to be alive, merely intact?

Also, Maria being Beato's vessel makes an odd kind of sense, given the symbology behind Maria's hat and all... but the handwriting is still an issue. Unless we accept that a six-year-old Maria can have handwriting that adult and detailed, Beato can't be just a figment of Maria's imagination.
Well technically in EP 4 nobody is confirmed dead until Battler (piece) sees their body. So it could very well be that Genji didn't die the first twilight, but was dead by the time Battler saw his corpse. This can explain why Ronove showed up to deal with Jessica, even though Genji had already died.

In EP 2 Maria tells Rosa (before dinner time) that she had been meeting up with Beatrice every year since she was a young child. It could be that there is a Beatrice from the family who does that, to appease Maria. Only this time the 'Beatrice' Maria met up with wasn't the Beatrice she knew, and was deceived. So the 'Beatrice' that did always meet with Maria wrote the note saying she wanted the truth to be discovered, but decided to sign it with Maria's name instead.
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Old 2009-10-05, 03:50   Link #1068
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Well technically in EP 4 nobody is confirmed dead until Battler (piece) sees their body. So it could very well be that Genji didn't die the first twilight, but was dead by the time Battler saw his corpse. This can explain why Ronove showed up to deal with Jessica, even though Genji had already died.
Shouldn't we regard magic scenes as technically Meta?

Otherwise things get really confusing.

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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
In EP 2 Maria tells Rosa (before dinner time) that she had been meeting up with Beatrice every year since she was a young child. It could be that there is a Beatrice from the family who does that, to appease Maria. Only this time the 'Beatrice' Maria met up with wasn't the Beatrice she knew, and was deceived. So the 'Beatrice' that did always meet with Maria wrote the note saying she wanted the truth to be discovered, but decided to sign it with Maria's name instead.
My money is still on Shannon.
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Old 2009-10-05, 04:12   Link #1069
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Shouldn't we regard magic scenes as technically Meta?

Otherwise things get really confusing.
Every magic scene has some grains of truth. EP 5 proves that Beato does want Battler to solve the mystery, so ignoring all magic scenes as stupid and not even acknowledging the hints in them means there is really no way to determine a culprit for certain. Plus you would have to ignore many character traits and background info (Kyrie's jealousy and her miscarriage, Kanon's stubborn bravery and wish to be acknowledged as human, George's willing attitude to give up everything to be with Shannon, Natsuhi's...well I think EP 5 explained that enough).

So yes, magic scenes obviously never happened, but does that mean we should completely ignore them?
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Old 2009-10-05, 04:20   Link #1070
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Every magic scene has some grains of truth. EP 5 proves that Beato does want Battler to solve the mystery, so ignoring all magic scenes as stupid and not even acknowledging the hints in them means there is really no way to determine a culprit for certain. Plus you would have to ignore many character traits and background info (Kyrie's jealousy and her miscarriage, Kanon's stubborn bravery and wish to be acknowledged as human, George's willing attitude to give up everything to be with Shannon, Natsuhi's...well I think EP 5 explained that enough).

So yes, magic scenes obviously never happened, but does that mean we should completely ignore them?
Isn't there also a scene in an earlier episode where Kinzo is shown crying about wanting to meet Beatrice again and Beatrice comments on how he can't see her? The problem with that scene is that meta-Battler wasn't observing it.

So if Beatrice doesn't really exist and Kinzo doesn't really exist then isn't that scene just the narrator trolling us?
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Old 2009-10-05, 04:31   Link #1071
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Every magic scene has some grains of truth. EP 5 proves that Beato does want Battler to solve the mystery, so ignoring all magic scenes as stupid and not even acknowledging the hints in them means there is really no way to determine a culprit for certain. Plus you would have to ignore many character traits and background info (Kyrie's jealousy and her miscarriage, Kanon's stubborn bravery and wish to be acknowledged as human, George's willing attitude to give up everything to be with Shannon, Natsuhi's...well I think EP 5 explained that enough).

So yes, magic scenes obviously never happened, but does that mean we should completely ignore them?
That was not what I was asking.

You said that "Genji might not have actually died, allowing Ronove to continue existing."

I'm saying "Shouldn't we regard Magic scenes as generally canon to Meta scenes?"

Using the Magic Scenes Aren't Always Real explanation to explain something that only exists in the Meta-World is going to get confusing fast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
So if Beatrice doesn't really exist and Kinzo doesn't really exist then isn't that scene just the narrator trolling us?
Ah, but Beatrice exists in at least some form, whether Meta or Real.

Kinzo is just... there.
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Old 2009-10-05, 04:46   Link #1072
Marion
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Isn't there also a scene in an earlier episode where Kinzo is shown crying about wanting to meet Beatrice again and Beatrice comments on how he can't see her? The problem with that scene is that meta-Battler wasn't observing it.

So if Beatrice doesn't really exist and Kinzo doesn't really exist then isn't that scene just the narrator trolling us?
Probably, but whose to say such a scene never happened in the past. Think about the very start of EP 1: we see Kinzo saying how much he wants to see her again, while he's with Nanjo and Genji. It could easily be a scene before his death in 1985, since he did die about a day or two before the family conference.

Scenes like that just show Beato's feelings towards different things. Like how we saw her talking to Virgilia alone, while Meta-Battler wasn't around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
That was not what I was asking.

You said that "Genji might not have actually died, allowing Ronove to continue existing."

I'm saying "Shouldn't we regard Magic scenes as generally canon to Meta scenes?"

Using the Magic Scenes Aren't Always Real explanation to explain something that only exists in the Meta-World is going to get confusing fast.
Ah I see what you mean now. Yeah it does get a little confusing now that I think on it, since Kumasawa was in the shed for the entire duration of everything after the 1st twilight.
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Old 2009-10-05, 06:14   Link #1073
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Wait guys, think about what Kaisos is saying for a second.

Is it possible that all the magic scenes- unless stated otherwise in Red or somehow else- happen after the characters in them died, and take place in the Meta-World?

It's damn farfetched, but it would work with our theories that the Meta-World is real but magic didn't commit the murders.

(Sorry if I sound really stupid haha)
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Old 2009-10-05, 07:19   Link #1074
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
You know, if we take the EP5 Tea Party at face value, all meta-characters including Beato need to have a vessel of some sort, where a vessel is some object that still exists at the time (which is why we never see 556).

Maybe the connection here is that Maria is Beatrice's vessel...which would also explain why we see Beato in plenty of past scenes, but not a single 1998 scene, whereas the stakes are able to remain somehow.
Still a pretty weak theory, I guess...
The problem I see with this is that the handwriting is different. I don't think the handwriting can change even in cases of multiple personality. So it is hard to explain how Maria could have wrote everything alone.

There is also the matter of the letters sent to all the relatives of the people who died in rokkenjima, how could Maria a 9 years old girl do that?

Lastly there is this red text in ep2:

The letter I gave Maria...

If Maria=Beatrice does it mean she gave a letter to herself? ;

Of course there is the possibility that there are many Beatrice and Maria is one of them. But in any case there must be a Beatrice that isn't Maria.
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Old 2009-10-05, 13:45   Link #1075
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can
I think there are chances she may be adopted, since more than once, she's referred to herself as the Ushiromiya family's furniture. She does have the one-winged eagle mark on her right leg, after all.
i wonder, are we actually right to assume that tattoo marks the furniture? the whole thing kinda bugs me.
i wonder if Kanon and Genji have one too.
i mean, Eva has a tattoo on her arm... looks kinda weird.
not to mention Beatrice and demons have tattoos on right leg, when Shannon has one on her left... does it mean anything? (and both look a little different, though it may be just the placement)

i just got an idea that, all of the famly members have a tattoo on arm, and furniture on a tight. (of course we would see it in anime if it was the case... unless battler is not an ushiromiya )


was anything actually mentioned about them, in the novel?
it would be nice if it got explained.
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Old 2009-10-05, 13:54   Link #1076
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i wonder, are we actually right to assume that tattoo marks the furniture? the whole thing kinda bugs me.
i wonder if Kanon and Genji have one too.
i mean, Eva has a tattoo on her arm... looks kinda weird.
not to mention Beatrice and demons have tattoos on right leg, when Shannon has one on her left... does it mean anything? (and both look a little different)

i just got an idea that, all of the famly members have a tattoo on arm, and furniture on a tight. (of course we would see it in anime if it was the case... unless battler is not an ushiromiya )


was anything actually mentioned about them, in the novel?
it would be nice if it got explained.
There was a theory that Shannon's tattoo is actually same-colored leggings, but considering some promo pictures in the anime that show her on the beach I think you might as well throw out that theory. As for Eva - she basically has the crest all over her body.

Besides her arm, her dress is pretty much customed designed with the one-winged eagle. It's just a way of showing how much pride she has in the family I suppose.
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Old 2009-10-05, 14:05   Link #1077
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
As for Eva - she basically has the crest all over her body.

Besides her arm, her dress is pretty much customed designed with the one-winged eagle. It's just a way of showing how much pride she has in the family I suppose.
clothes don't count, all of them have the crest. (Eva's suit reminds me of Beato's dress btw, same idea with the pattern. [copycat])
about her reason for getting one, i thought the same, but if all servants have the tattoo, wouldn't it be like she was lowering herself to their level? at least Kinzo should protest.
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Old 2009-10-05, 14:18   Link #1078
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Originally Posted by desirebluesky View Post
clothes don't count, all of them have the crest. (Eva's suit reminds me of Beato's dress btw, same idea with the pattern. [copycat])
about her reason for getting one, i thought the same, but if all servants have the tattoo, wouldn't it be like she was lowering herself to their level? at least Kinzo should protest.
I think what you're trying to say is that Kanon and Genji have matching tatoos on their butts?

But you're probably right, there's probably some meaning to the placement and orientation of the one winged eagle crest.
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Old 2009-10-05, 14:33   Link #1079
Marion
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Originally Posted by desirebluesky View Post
clothes don't count, all of them have the crest. (Eva's suit reminds me of Beato's dress btw, same idea with the pattern. [copycat])
about her reason for getting one, i thought the same, but if all servants have the tattoo, wouldn't it be like she was lowering herself to their level? at least Kinzo should protest.
Well I think tattooing is a personal choice, so Shannon and Eva just decided to tattoo themselves. I don't think it's something worth delving into too deeply, otherwise you'll have to question why everyone gets a tattoo of a certain thing.

Although I do wonder why the stakes don't have one-winged eagles on them, while the Siestas do. I understand Iron Maidens, since they aren't technically Beato's furniture nor are they affiliated with the Ushiromiya family, but still the stakes are direct furniture of Beato's. Gaap doesn't seem to have the crest either, while Ronove does. Siestas might be explainable if we take the route that MARIA created them and thus they have the crest because of her.
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Old 2009-10-05, 14:53   Link #1080
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Although I do wonder why the stakes don't have one-winged eagles on them, while the Siestas do. I understand Iron Maidens, since they aren't technically Beato's furniture nor are they affiliated with the Ushiromiya family, but still the stakes are direct furniture of Beato's. Gaap doesn't seem to have the crest either, while Ronove does. Siestas might be explainable if we take the route that MARIA created them and thus they have the crest because of her.
The Stakes have crests on their skirts. Gaap is the only one without a crest that I can recall at the moment.
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