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Old 2009-10-07, 08:54   Link #121
Keroko
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Exactly. It works because they think it works.
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Old 2009-10-07, 13:32   Link #122
hayate-sama
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This series screwed Physic itself. Look back to episode 1, if the think that Mikito threw at Touma is electric or lightning than it will travel with the speed of light, how could Touma fast enough to block something like that. BTW have you see in real life that any equipment capable of fire a energy blast ?

Moreover, in this series, some self-proclaim ESP power are too unrealistic like Kuroko 's teleport any body knew how it work, the term teleport itself are too unrealistc.

Last edited by hayate-sama; 2009-10-07 at 14:02.
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Old 2009-10-07, 13:50   Link #123
Von Himmel
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As we've discovered in the episode 1 thread, Mikoto's Railgun fires a coin at speed barely matching some of our more powerful rifles, which also fire far more effective projectiles, yet she causes tremendously more damage. A true railgun shot also causes massive amounts of heat, and a recoil of the same force as that propelling the projectile. In other words, realistically speaking Mikoto would be blasted away by the same shot she fires.

According to physics Mikoto's Railgun would either be not nearly as powerful, or as deadly for her as it is for her target.

Which leads me to one of the explanations. Of course, the most obvious one is that Kamachi went with a bit of physics to make things sound scientific, then added copious amounts of rule of cool to make things work. However another, more in universe explanation was given by our favourite loli sensei. When she explained psychic powers, she explained that psychic powers are basically the user replacing normal reality with their own.

In other words: The very basic principle of psychic powers is saying "screw you" to physics.

This means that psychic powers don't work because they're physically possible, they're possible because the user thinks they're possible. Kind of like Orks in Warhammer 40K, if you're familiar with them.
In a way, that reminds me of Reality Marble.

Considering the fact of the force of the recoil that should hit Mikoto when she used a railgun, I think your argument is quite valid.

Aaah ~ this thread is so confusing @_@
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Old 2009-10-07, 14:25   Link #124
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Except that Railgun was written by the same author that wrote Index, which means there is no reason to assume it works differently in either.
I was under the impression that she was merely providing the overall layout of the plot and characters, while the mangaka, Fuyukawa Motoi, was the one who would actually set the atmosphere and draw the actions and expressions. Why do I assume that Railgun's IB is broken? Because I have not yet found any [translated] novel text that agrees with its exploits in the Railgun manga.
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
As we've discovered in the episode 1 thread, Mikoto's Railgun fires a coin at speed barely matching some of our more powerful rifles, which also fire far more effective projectiles, yet she causes tremendously more damage. A true railgun shot also causes massive amounts of heat, and a recoil of the same force as that propelling the projectile. In other words, realistically speaking Mikoto would be blasted away by the same shot she fires.
This is where you seem to be confused. This "recoil" force felt by the wielder actually comes from the original [recoil] force caused by the rails pushing on the support material (which happen to be the breech in traditional railguns) in a direction opposite that of the projectile's. Now, how is Mikoto's railgun set up?
  • The projectile is the coin, obviously. As it is made of conductive material, then it also serves as the armature.
  • She is the power source.
  • The rails are not really rails. Instead, she summons two (four even) parallel electrical currents going in opposite directions.
  • Somehow she is able to control these currents perfectly such that they are traveling along the same length and are able to stay on their initial positions. No wonder she's a Level 5 -- if maintaining such conditions are easy enough, then we would be seeing at least Level 3 electromasters shooting high-velocity railguns.
Now, what happens when the circuit is closed (when the coin is tossed into the system)? The Lorentz force created by the current accelerates the armature away from the power supply. In traditional rail guns, the recoil effect is in the form of the rails pushing at the breech, as said above. Here, the resulting recoil force accelerates air occupying the area where the current is flowing (which is accounted for in all illustrations so far), causing a gust of wind flowing towards Mikoto (and continuing behind her, etc.). Reasons why this is not dangerous to her (as someone who has complete control over the system) should be obvious.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
This means that psychic powers don't work because they're physically possible, they're possible because the user thinks they're possible. Kind of like Orks in Warhammer 40K, if you're familiar with them.
Not really familiar with Warhammer. I'm more familiar with WoW spacegoats and Goblin/Gnome engineering though (I believe you're familiar with these too ).
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Old 2009-10-07, 14:38   Link #125
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Yeah, she's not pushing it off of herself, she's pushing it off the air. It's more like she's constructing an invisible railgun in midair than her holding a gun.
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Old 2009-10-07, 15:02   Link #126
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Ice Block View Post
I was under the impression that she was merely providing the overall layout of the plot and characters, while the mangaka, Fuyukawa Motoi, was the one who would actually set the atmosphere and draw the actions and expressions. Why do I assume that Railgun's IB is broken? Because I have not yet found any [translated] novel text that agrees with its exploits in the Railgun manga.
Kazuma Kamachi is noted as the author of the Railgun manga, while Motoi Fuyukawa is noted as the illustrator. If Motoi was responsible for writing much of the story, he would be in a co-author position at the very least I'd say.

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Originally Posted by Ice Block View Post
This is where you seem to be confused. This "recoil" force felt by the wielder actually comes from the original [recoil] force caused by the rails pushing on the support material (which happen to be the breech in traditional railguns) in a direction opposite that of the projectile's. Now, how is Mikoto's railgun set up?
  • The projectile is the coin, obviously. As it is made of conductive material, then it also serves as the armature.
  • She is the power source.
  • The rails are not really rails. Instead, she summons two (four even) parallel electrical currents going in opposite directions.
  • Somehow she is able to control these currents perfectly such that they are traveling along the same length and are able to stay on their initial positions. No wonder she's a Level 5 -- if maintaining such conditions are easy enough, then we would be seeing at least Level 3 electromasters shooting high-velocity railguns.
Now, what happens when the circuit is closed (when the coin is tossed into the system)? The Lorentz force created by the current accelerates the armature away from the power supply. In traditional rail guns, the recoil effect is in the form of the rails pushing at the breech, as said above. Here, the resulting recoil force accelerates air occupying the area where the current is flowing (which is accounted for in all illustrations so far), causing a gust of wind flowing towards Mikoto (and continuing behind her, etc.). Reasons why this is not dangerous to her (as someone who has complete control over the system) should be obvious.
Hmm, I see, yes I did seem to be confused there, thanks for pointing that out. A question, though. Shouldn't the casual flick of the fingers she uses to launch the coin still be very dangerous? Not to mention the air pressure created by the coin is enough to tear apart concrete.

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Not really familiar with Warhammer. I'm more familiar with WoW spacegoats and Goblin/Gnome engineering though (I believe you're familiar with these too ).
Yes I am. Orkish engineering works a tad differently though. Most of the time they just bang sheets of metal together, and somehow get things to work. Meanhwile, if some other race picks up such an Orkish device, they can't get it to work no matter what they try.
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Old 2009-10-08, 15:57   Link #127
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Shouldn't the casual flick of the fingers she uses to launch the coin still be very dangerous? Not to mention the air pressure created by the coin is enough to tear apart concrete.
Rewatching the prologue to episode 1 of index, it looks like the projectile doesn't hit max speed for several meters, damage to the road surface doesn't start until after it has passed Touma despite being a horizontal shot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Orkish engineering works a tad differently though. Most of the time they just bang sheets of metal together, and somehow get things to work. Meanhwile, if some other race picks up such an Orkish device, they can't get it to work no matter what they try.
Not all Ork engineering is that heavily psychic Fiat. Commissar Cain and company acquire and use dozens of ork vehicles during the Liberation of Perlia. Jurgen even drives some and he's radiates a Psychic Null field.
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Old 2009-10-08, 16:05   Link #128
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Originally Posted by dahak View Post
Rewatching the prologue to episode 1 of index, it looks like the projectile doesn't hit max speed for several meters, damage to the road surface doesn't start until after it has passed Touma despite being a horizontal shot.
... I'm not an expert on physics, but don't ballistics usually work the other way around?

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Not all Ork engineering is that heavily psychic Fiat. Commissar Cain and company acquire and use dozens of ork vehicles during the Liberation of Perlia. Jurgen even drives some and he's radiates a Psychic Null field.
Ah, yeah you're right, I might have been a bit unclear in that.
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Old 2009-10-09, 10:29   Link #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
... I'm not an expert on physics, but don't ballistics usually work the other way around?
Lol.. dragging real life physics in fantasy story.. that said...
For a gun the more the bullet travels the slower it gets due to air friction. However it's not like Mikoto flips the coin with an ungodly force. She flips it and then accelerates it with her powers. Which means the path she accelerates the coin might be longer than just few cm. That would mean that the coin would reach its maximum speed after a while.
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Old 2009-10-09, 18:36   Link #130
dahak
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
... I'm not an expert on physics, but don't ballistics usually work the other way around?
Only once the round leaves the barrel. But if she's projecting continuous magnetic fields into the air the projectile will accelerate until it reaches the end of them. Like a Gyrojet you'd get a lowish launch speed, acceleration for a period and the a ballistic flight.

It's possible that she can project the driving fields further than the coins can survive. Induction from the driving field may be as much to blame for them melting as friction.
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Old 2009-10-09, 20:42   Link #131
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Originally Posted by dahak View Post
Not all Ork engineering is that heavily psychic Fiat. Commissar Cain and company acquire and use dozens of ork vehicles during the Liberation of Perlia. Jurgen even drives some and he's radiates a Psychic Null field.
But- but Commissar Cain is a Touma-type Sue! Sort of.

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Only once the round leaves the barrel. But if she's projecting continuous magnetic fields into the air the projectile will accelerate until it reaches the end of them. Like a Gyrojet you'd get a lowish launch speed, acceleration for a period and the a ballistic flight.

It's possible that she can project the driving fields further than the coins can survive. Induction from the driving field may be as much to blame for them melting as friction.
I can compare this to an ESPer lifting a car several tens of times heavier than her own weight. Even if she is able to lift the car due to the rank, if reaction force is transmitted back to her, she'd buckle because of her own body being unable to cope. I doubt that is the case with ESP fields though.

Hence, I think your gyrojet comparison works very well. Misaka gives the coin once it drops back to her hand level an initial small acceleration with a finger flick, then greatly accelerates it with the field, leaving her unaffected by any tremendous reaction recoil. Just like a gyrojet bullet.
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Old 2009-10-10, 11:58   Link #132
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Touma can block Misaka . Look at 1st episode in S1 and 2nd episode in Railgun .
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Old 2009-10-10, 13:23   Link #133
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Touma can block Misaka .
I worry for Misaka if this means that his Imagine Breaker cancels even his natural desire for a possible sexual relationship (not just with Misaka, but pretty much anyone who catches his interest).
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Old 2009-10-10, 14:03   Link #134
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lol...cockblocked by your own left hand?...wicked idea.
(I pity Touma...again)
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Old 2009-10-10, 14:14   Link #135
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No wonder he keep screaming out loud about his misfortune
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Old 2009-10-10, 19:59   Link #136
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People make this way more complex than they have to: His power negates anything directly related to the supernatural. Side effects of the super natural occurance (Say, Misaka's lightning hits a gas barrel and causes an explosion) however are not negated, hence the difference between Misaka's power and Accelerator's. Misaka's power continuously pushes the "bullet" forward, otherwise it wouldn't be shown as working like a beam weapon now would it? Accererator's power probably works much closer to the way some of you think Misaka's "Railgun" does.
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Old 2009-10-10, 22:52   Link #137
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Even if he cancels the acceleration (push), he can't stop the speed (momentum).
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Old 2009-10-10, 23:55   Link #138
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7 Pages on the same topic? Well, here's my 2 cents.
If your talking about Toumu not blocking the beams sent at him by Accelerator, did he ever try to block them? After all, Toumu's limits are kinda ill-defined. For the railgun, let's just pretend that Misaka did shoot it at him for now. That scene made it seem alot like Toumu blocked the coin on pure reflex. I seriously doubt he had time to think "hmm, should I try to dodge this? Or try to nullify it?" It was too fast, and probably way too fast to be dodged. On the other hand, for the I-beams, chances are they were fast but not too fast to be dodged. Perhaps he could nullify it, but wouldn't it be safer to just dodge it instead? Dodge the attacks you can dodge and nullify the attacks you are absolutely sure you can nullify or when dodging isn't an option due to it coming at you too fast or for some other reason.
And plus it's magic. Who really knows?
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Old 2009-10-11, 01:08   Link #139
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Maybe in he kinda leveled up? xD Or maybe the coin disintegrates,leaving a bolt of electricity?
I fail at physics.
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Old 2009-10-12, 10:02   Link #140
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Well basically Accelerators power was changing the vector values of anything. And Mikoto was able to control and generate electricity.
So if Mikoto creates electricity which is supernatural for any kind of goal, for example shooting the railgun, then Touma can stop it.
However in Accelerators case it's more like this... A piece of building is falling down. He changes it's direction so it falls on Touma. So even assuming he cancels the supernatural vector changes it's not like the building is gonna teleport back to it's previous falling place. It will simply fall down.
Same with the I-Beams. He would have canceled the vector changes and make it return it in it's previous state which would make a huge ass explosion anyway.
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