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Old 2009-10-08, 09:45   Link #5841
Paladinoras
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Lol, well, truthfully blade, if you hate Lelouch in the last arc, then you fell for his plan.

He wanted you to hate him, and you did.

So he was a genius after all.
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Old 2009-10-08, 10:04   Link #5842
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paladinoras View Post
Lol, well, truthfully blade, if you hate Lelouch in the last arc, then you fell for his plan.

He wanted you to hate him, and you did.

So he was a genius after all.
the fact that i couldnt bring myself to feel bad when he died, when he used to be my favorite character
makes me feel less like "keikaku doori" more like something went wrong with the writing
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Old 2009-10-08, 10:27   Link #5843
Revolutionist
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
he was faced with a greater evil at least, and was fighting on behalf of the oppressed
which at least puts him on the right side of the scale
The whole Knights for Justice was simply an act, he admits as much to C.C saying something to the effect that people like heroes and there's no better hero than a knight, hence the Black Knights. He wasn't fighting because he gave a crap about the 11s, he didn't. He was fighting for Nunnaly, or rather he fighting to avenge his mother and used Nunnaly's future to justify his actions.

If you didn't realize that by episode 25 of S1 then you weren't paying attention , he leaves the Black Knights to get destroyed by Guilford and the Glaston Knights; also when the idiot with the glasses tells him that Oughi's shot Lelouch doesn't even give a shit and tells him he'll find a replacement later. He did all of that to go find Nunnaly. He then later tells Kallen as a result of him using them (the Resistance) for his quest Japan would be liberated. Lelouch was never fighting for justice.
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Old 2009-10-08, 10:34   Link #5844
bladeofdarkness
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i didnt say he was fighting FOR the oppressed
he was fighting on the side of the oppressed, against those who were oppressing them (hence, on behalf of)
the fact that he did so for his own selfish reasons makes him less then a hero, but at least he was on the right SIDE fighting against the wrong one
and at least in season 2, they was some change, in that he DID start to actively fight for more then just nunnaly

in zero-requiem, lelouch is in control of the formerly wrong side, and declares war on the right side for no reason
the UFN isnt going to attack him
they were not going to conquer the world
what was the point of attacking them
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Old 2009-10-08, 10:51   Link #5845
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The right side is simply a matter of opinion. For example, Suzaku and other elevens who cooperated with Britannia believed in the established system, flawed as it may have been, because they believed peaceful change was possible and more meaningful than change through violence. To them the side of Britannia is the right side, and the terrorists are in the wrong because they're killing civilians, not accomplishing a whole lot and keeping their people down. Rampant terrorism in zones heavily populated by 11s keeps business out and in turn creates high unemployment and well, the decayed infrastructure we see.
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Old 2009-10-08, 11:01   Link #5846
bladeofdarkness
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actually
no its not a matter of opinion
on the one side you have britannia, an empire that conquered about a 3rd of the world and continued to conquer and enslave more people all the time
and on the other side of the board you have the japanese people who have been conquered and oppressed by britannia

one side is the right one, the other is the wrong one

your mistake is that you confuse suzaku's path with that of britannia
in other words, "honorary britannians" vs "japanese"
when the actual conflict is "japan vs britannia"

suzaku, was part of those japanese who believed that if they lower their heads and behave themselves, they would be treated less horribly then if they would rebel
people who had resigned themselves to a life where they MIGHT, if they are lucky, be treated as second class human beings
and that MAYBE, in time, things would get better for them AS second class humans
this is not a result of "wanting to be part of britannia"
this is a result of giving up any hope they may have had for anything more
which is not the same

lelouch was fighting for on the side of the oppressed against their oppressors
suzaku, fought on the side of the oppressors, out of the belief that fighting back against the oppressors was hopeless
you cant claim that suzaku fought "for britannia" any more then you can claim that lelouch fought "for the japanese people"
but those were the sides they fought on

at least in season 1 that is
season 2 is a different matter
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Old 2009-10-08, 11:01   Link #5847
kir44n
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I wouldn't say the right side is a matter of opinion, but rather, a matter of where one stands. To the Britannians, everything they had was in the right, and the japanese attempting to fight the established rule were in the wrong. To the Japanese, the Britannians established rule was in the wrong, and any actions undertaken to undermine and destroy that rule would be "right".

To those intimately involved (the characters), theres little ambivalance towards whether Lelouch (Emporer, or Zero) are good or bad. They typically think he's one, or the other. We can sit here and debate it because we are seperate from the situation at hand, and can pick which side we empathize with (and thus declare which side we find to be right).
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Old 2009-10-08, 11:05   Link #5848
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kir44n View Post
I wouldn't say the right side is a matter of opinion, but rather, a matter of where one stands. To the Britannians, everything they had was in the right, and the japanese attempting to fight the established rule were in the wrong. To the Japanese, the Britannians established rule was in the wrong, and any actions undertaken to undermine and destroy that rule would be "right".
to the viewers, britannia was horribly mistreating the conquered japanese and had no reason, or intention to leave ever
there IS a very clear cut line, thats defined in the very second ep
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Old 2009-10-08, 12:52   Link #5849
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We've had the same argument before, terrorism is never justified and nothing you can say can change that view.

Ask yourself this, if resisting will only cause the system to crack down harder on those you're trying to "save", are you really accomplishing anything? Besides, killing more of your own people in pathetic attempts to kill a few of the other guy's is not righteous or justified as you might want to believe. It's cowardly.
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Old 2009-10-08, 12:59   Link #5850
bladeofdarkness
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you keep viewing things from WITHIN the system as if there actually IS a system
there IS NO SYSTEM
there is an occupation
unjustified, unlawful, brutal racist, murderous occupation
the occupation is not in place my right, or by merit, if there was, there would be a point to argue about the legitimacy of accepting vs rebelling
the occupation is there by force
do you submit to it, or do you fight against it
thats all there is to it
the "system" is what people who gave up call it because it makes it sound like it has any legitimacy to exist
and the "honorary britannian" thing is a way to convince some of the people to submit rather then fight back
divide and conquer
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Old 2009-10-08, 14:09   Link #5851
kir44n
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I would definitley argue against the "Terrorism is never justified" mentality. The fact that the britannians have moved "civilians" onto japanese territory shows the britannians are willing to use human shields in their lower classes to justify the moral high ground during the occupancy. If this is the case, does it not make sense to slaughter these "civilians" to show that you are not willing to submit to their occupation?

The civilians play just as, if not a larger role in the occupation of Japan by Britannian forces than the actual military. Going for "soft targets" is generally a way to reduce one's own losses while maximizing enemy losses. And this, is proven military dogma.
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Old 2009-10-08, 14:26   Link #5852
bladeofdarkness
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britannia controls and manipulates the media all the time, and blame civillian casualties on the "terrorists" even when they are the ones who butcher the civilians
so the "terrorists" are only terrorists according to britannia's views
its questionable how much terrorism actually was legitimate resistance activity against soldiers that got portrayed as "terrorism" by the media

and given the massive amounts of state-terrorism britannia directs at the Japanese population, they are hardly ones to talk
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Old 2009-10-08, 16:40   Link #5853
azul120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
"almighty, fair Suzaku"
what
suzaku is hardly a model of morality, especially in season 2
but its mostly because suzaku is quite possibly insane at that point (litterally, he had a nervous breakdown less then 24 hours before joining lelouch)and that any moral reservations he ever had about anything, died in the flejia blast
he gets to make people forget euphie, which is something he would want
he gets to punish himself
and suzaku gets to kill lelouch in the end
so he gets what he wants
Heh. Though killing Lelouch falls more under punishing himself, since he didn't really want to do it.

Quote:
britannia controls and manipulates the media all the time, and blame civillian casualties on the "terrorists" even when they are the ones who butcher the civilians
so the "terrorists" are only terrorists according to britannia's views
its questionable how much terrorism actually was legitimate resistance activity against soldiers that got portrayed as "terrorism" by the media

and given the massive amounts of state-terrorism britannia directs at the Japanese population, they are hardly ones to talk
Yeah. If only the "state-sponsored terrorism" card was played on Suzaku whenever he argued about "change from within". I mean, talk about self-righteous posturing, lol.
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Old 2009-10-09, 03:41   Link #5854
ZeroSama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
We've had the same argument before, terrorism is never justified and nothing you can say can change that view.

Ask yourself this, if resisting will only cause the system to crack down harder on those you're trying to "save", are you really accomplishing anything? Besides, killing more of your own people in pathetic attempts to kill a few of the other guy's is not righteous or justified as you might want to believe. It's cowardly.
The OotBK is basically like the French resistance and Russian Partisans in WW2 and i'm pretty certain that nowadays their considered as (legitimate)freedom fighters and not not terrorists.

Although admittedly before Lelouch came along and put them on the straight and narrow they were all douchebags out to cause as much havoc as possible, no matter if they ended up killing more of their guys than Britannians.
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Old 2009-10-09, 04:36   Link #5855
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroSama View Post
Although admittedly before Lelouch came along and put them on the straight and narrow they were all douchebags out to cause as much havoc as possible, no matter if they ended up killing more of their guys than Britannians.
we have nothing that shows that
at all
we have no info at all about what they did before lelouch came along
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Old 2009-10-09, 04:53   Link #5856
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I wonder if debates went on like this in the show between random civilians? Obviously not as well informed but still it makes you think. I can't help but feel like these are the kinds of things the japanese people would talk about behind closed doors.
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Old 2009-10-09, 04:55   Link #5857
ZeroSama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
we have nothing that shows that
at all
we have no info at all about what they did before lelouch came along
Yes i'm sure Ougi and his chums were going to use that poison gas capsule as a nice room ornament for their rundown appartment.
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Old 2009-10-09, 05:06   Link #5858
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroSama View Post
Yes i'm sure Ougi and his chums were going to use that poison gas capsule as a nice room ornament for their rundown appartment.
military or political targets are fair game
especially since the britannians were the ones who MADE that gas
and we know that whatever the intended target was, it wasnt a civilian one
hell. it might have even simply been used as a means of blackmail rather then outright used against any specific target
the idea that "terrorists" have such a powerful weapon and would use it if provoked would have gone a long way in terms of deterrence against britannian actions
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Old 2009-10-09, 19:05   Link #5859
Icarius Blightwalker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
military or political targets are fair game
especially since the britannians were the ones who MADE that gas
and we know that whatever the intended target was, it wasnt a civilian one
hell. it might have even simply been used as a means of blackmail rather then outright used against any specific target
the idea that "terrorists" have such a powerful weapon and would use it if provoked would have gone a long way in terms of deterrence against britannian actions
Ack. First time posting in these forums, being lurking for a long while.

Anyway, at first, the group seemed split up in their ideas on how to use the poison capsule. I seem to recall, Nagata musing about using the gas to Kallen while they were still in the civillian area, while Tamaki clearly stated that he thought they should of just released it. From what I remeber of Ougi, I believe he would of just caved in to the demmands from other members of the group, even if Kallen did protest to it.

Lucky that thing actually was not gas, huh?
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Old 2009-10-09, 19:14   Link #5860
bladeofdarkness
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considering that the whole mess started because, as nagata puts it "tamaki deviated from naoto's plan"
which suggests that there WAS a pre-determined use for the gas
the plan of what to do with it was already in place
and given kallen's reaction to nagata's suggestion, the target was not a civilian one
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