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Old 2009-03-12, 18:32   Link #2061
Evangelion Xgouki
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Originally Posted by BPHaru View Post
Yes, that's very logic considering the canon scenario and his personality, so to bring the fight out you should change one or the other thing.
What is there to change? The build up for Jail's plan of activating and using the ancient Cradle had been building up since the start of the series. Actually, even before with him collecting Relics in the manga. Vivio was introduced and was already determined to be an artificial mage, an integral part of Jail's plans. Hell, RF6 wouldn't have even been formed if it wasn't for Jail's ultimate plan of using the Cradle. Plus Jail holds all the cards in the end. Yes, Nanoha can demand them to come out and fight. But they have Vivio. They have a massive, ancient battleship armed to the teeth with weapons and mobile weapon platforms. They don't have to do anything. If Nanoha wants to save Vivio, she needed to go in and save her herself which is what she did (and also further develops her character). The same does with Fate. Jail is deep underground in his lair that was recently discovered. The TSAB has all they have thrown at the Cradle in hopes of stopping it and he knows it. The threat of attacking his lair is moot as he is deep underground and could escape undetected should things not start working out well. That leaves the option to go in after him which Fate does to arrest him as her duty as an Enforcer.


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Originally Posted by BPHaru View Post
You can make it work as well, if not better with the two of them and Vivio, that way both will got the same importance in the scene and the acceptance of Vivio. The motherhood of Nanoha and Fate can be learned through the time goes.
Except that is not the point. The contrasting between the parenting habits of Nanoha and Fate is used to provide various development points for the both of them. nanoha, who has zero experience is going why what she believes to be the best course of action while Fate, who has had some experience contrasts Nanoha. They also both learn more about being a good parent drawing from their current envisioning of the roll and current experiences.
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Old 2009-03-12, 18:35   Link #2062
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BPHaru View Post

You can make it work as well, if not better with the two of them and Vivio, that way both will got the same importance in the scene and the acceptance of Vivio. The motherhood of Nanoha and Fate can be learned through the time goes.
But (that part of) StrikerS isn't about Nanoha and Fate becoming mothers it's about Nanoha becoming a mother. If Fate is there it would ruin that story that has been worked on up to then. Vivio wasn't the only one who needed to stand on her own, Nanoha had to become a mama in her own right to complete her arc.
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Old 2009-03-12, 18:38   Link #2063
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Originally Posted by TheShinySword View Post
But (that part of) StrikerS isn't about Nanoha and Fate becoming mothers it's about Nanoha becoming a mother. If Fate is there it would ruin that story that has been worked on up to then. Vivio wasn't the only one who needed to stand on her own, Nanoha had to become a mama in her own right to complete her arc.
It also provides a contrast. While Fate was seeing how Nanoha and Vivio interacted as mother/child she saw how she wasn't fulfilling that roll with her own children. While her intent was good she didn't see how her execution of it was bad until Vivio began interacting with Nanoha. From that point we see how Fate develops and learns from this to try and improve her relationship with Caro and Erio. Character development is a very important aspect.
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Old 2009-03-12, 18:45   Link #2064
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelion Xgouki View Post
What is there to change? The build up for Jail's plan of activating and using the ancient Cradle had been building up since the start of the series. Actually, even before with him collecting Relics in the manga. Vivio was introduced and was already determined to be an artificial mage, an integral part of Jail's plans. Hell, RF6 wouldn't have even been formed if it wasn't for Jail's ultimate plan of using the Cradle. Plus Jail holds all the cards in the end. Yes, Nanoha can demand them to come out and fight. But they have Vivio. They have a massive, ancient battleship armed to the teeth with weapons and mobile weapon platforms. They don't have to do anything. If Nanoha wants to save Vivio, she needed to go in and save her herself which is what she did (and also further develops her character). The same does with Fate. Jail is deep underground in his lair that was recently discovered. The TSAB has all they have thrown at the Cradle in hopes of stopping it and he knows it. The threat of attacking his lair is moot as he is deep underground and could escape undetected should things not start working out well. That leaves the option to go in after him which Fate does to arrest him as her duty as an Enforcer.
In the worst case you can rebuild everything from zero. I'm not going to explain every detail of a possible universe because it's not going to be written.

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Originally Posted by Evangelion Xgouki View Post
Except that is not the point. The contrasting between the parenting habits of Nanoha and Fate is used to provide various development points for the both of them. nanoha, who has zero experience is going why what she believes to be the best course of action while Fate, who has had some experience contrasts Nanoha. They also both learn more about being a good parent drawing from their current envisioning of the roll and current experiences.
Yes, but in my opinion a scenario with the two of them would have a better appealing for the fans. That may be the point.

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Originally Posted by TheShinySword View Post
But (that part of) StrikerS isn't about Nanoha and Fate becoming mothers it's about Nanoha becoming a mother. If Fate is there it would ruin that story that has been worked on up to then. Vivio wasn't the only one who needed to stand on her own, Nanoha had to become a mama in her own right to complete her arc.
The reason to change that was to give same importance from Vivio to the both of them, and not give a major role to Nanoha in this part of the story.

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Old 2009-03-12, 22:26   Link #2065
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In other words, more family moments between Nanoha Fate and Vivio because it puts Nanoha and Fate together, while sacrificing both of their development, undercutting their depth and stagnating them in the same position that has been shown many many times before.

I haven't thought before about how much worst StrikerS could get but your words certainly remind me of those possibilities.
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Old 2009-03-12, 22:29   Link #2066
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Enough already. Take this discussion to the Relationship thread before I get a mod in here. You have one post to comply.
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Old 2009-03-13, 03:23   Link #2067
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Originally Posted by Tormenk View Post
In other words, more family moments between Nanoha Fate and Vivio because it puts Nanoha and Fate together, while sacrificing both of their development, undercutting their depth and stagnating them in the same position that has been shown many many times before.

I haven't thought before about how much worst StrikerS could get but your words certainly remind me of those possibilities.
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Old 2009-10-09, 03:26   Link #2068
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Ported from the image thread:

Spoiler for The image that started it all:


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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
No, Fate's defense is not crap. You don't become a great melee fighter with sucky defense, Keroko.
*bites tongue* I could go on a very long rant, but long story short, yes you can be. Superior fencing skills and superior agility skills, for one. Which, ironically, are what Fate uses.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Fate's defensive spells are fine. She successfully shielded herself, with a magic shield, from one of Nanoha's best blast attacks in their final battle in the original Nanoha anime.

I don't see any evidence at all that Fate has "low defensive spells". Just because Fate dodges a lot doesn't mean she has "low defensive spells". That's like saying that since Superman dodges attacks sometimes, he can't withstand them. No, it's just that he instinctively dodges, or he doesn't want to risk the attacks hurting him if he doesn't know how potent they are.

Also, in Fate's case, why waste magic energy making shields when she's so good at dodging?
The question you should be asking is "If Fate's defensive spells are fine, why does she repeatedly say otherwise herself?" Even after the cartridge upgrade, Fate noted that the only way to defeat Signum was to concentrate on dodging rather than defending.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Finally, a defense value should count for more than just "defensive spells". It should count for physical defense as well. Fate uses Bardiche very well as a defensive weapon at times.
Like I said. Fencing skills. However, that goes to blur the lines, as by that logic we can just as easily call dodging defense.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
... And Nanoha got dropped by a single punch from Vivio in their fight. So... what's your point?
Yes, a Vivio powered by the Cradle's reactor, who's attacks have been noted to be on the insane level.

Fate, on the other hand, got told by every single opponent she faced that one single hit in Sonic Form, even a glancing one, would be the end of her. And here's the beauty: Fate concurred.

However, a point I will agree with you is that her defense could be a bit higher. The Barrier Jacket she is wearing -her StrikerS one- has been noted to have a higher defensive stat. However, her defense is very much lower than Nanoha's. I'd place it around the middle mark, perhaps one point below it. Sonic form would drop the line to the bottom.
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Old 2009-10-09, 03:44   Link #2069
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I'll drag my comment over here too..

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Originally Posted by Me!
If you're going to match them up...

It matches up as thus in canon.

Fate Favors speedblitzing over tanking and precision over power. She starts out towards the balanced end of the spectrum, but favors rotating her stats to a speed and firepower edge as she 'powers up'. Emphasising her desire to hit first, hit hard, and be gone before the return fire. Her specialty would be strike.

Signum, as a classic full warrior case, favors an ideal balance. If anything, Signum is the Mario of the group. Her speed is balanced with her defense, armor, skills and power. She excels in nothing, but can handle everything equally well. She'd be an ideal escort.

Nanoha is a tank. She favors blasting her opponents until they give up, maneuvering a little, simply shrugging off what she does get hit with and keeps on trucking. Her firepower is strong and balances with her defenses. Prolonged assault is right up her ally.

Hayate said it herself. She's absurd in close combat. She's a glass cannon. She's a cute artillery piece that suffers from a severe issue if you get inside her attack sphere. She's field artillery.
I would also like to add that when the term 'drop' is used in combat. It means to permenantly neutralize. Meaning to knock out for the duration, or kill... depending on the threat/force level you're at.

Nanoha was most certainly not DROPPED by Vivio during the fight on the Cradle. Vivio certainly waled on her a lot, but at no time was Nanoha down for the count that wasn't deliberate stalling for her W.A.S.
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Old 2009-10-09, 04:00   Link #2070
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Ported from the image thread:

Spoiler for The image that started it all:




*bites tongue* I could go on a very long rant, but long story short, yes you can be.
No, you can't be. You really can't be. Not unless your agility and speed are off the charts... and I don't think that Fate is *that* good. To be a good melee fighter, you have to be able to take a hit, and come back strong. And Fate has. Numerous times.


Quote:

Superior fencing skills and superior agility skills, for one. Which, ironically, are what Fate uses.
Fate also uses defensive maneuvers and defensive magic.


Quote:
The question you should be asking is "If Fate's defensive spells are fine, why does she repeatedly say otherwise herself?"
Feats trumps character's appraisals of themselves. Every time.

Feats are iron clad evidence right in front of our eyes. Character appraisals can be very unreliable, due to either arrogance or humility.

Fate is a very humble person. This comes across a lot. It's quite possible for her to be underrating herself, as such.


Quote:
Even after the cartridge upgrade, Fate noted that the only way to defeat Signum was to concentrate on dodging rather than defending.
Well... that's Signum. That's the best pure melee fighter on the show. The same would hold true for Nanoha trying to defeat Signum, frankly.


Quote:
Yes, a Vivio powered by the Cradle's reactor, who's attacks have been noted to be on the insane level.
Again... noted. Said to be. That's not something to base a whole lot on. You base things on feats, imo. Did Vivio lift a 50 ton object, for example? Is there any ironclad reason to put a punch from Vivio at a higher level than an energy blast from Scaglietti?


Quote:

Fate, on the other hand, got told by every single opponent she faced that one single hit in Sonic Form, even a glancing one, would be the end of her. And here's the beauty: Fate concurred.
Opponents trash-talking Fate is supposed to count for something? And Fate concurring in order to not get drawn into a pointless debate in the middle of a fight, is supposed to count for something?

I don't think that it does.


Quote:

However, a point I will agree with you is that her defense could be a bit higher. The Barrier Jacket she is wearing -her StrikerS one- has been noted to have a higher defensive stat. However, her defense is very much lower than Nanoha's. I'd place it around the middle mark, perhaps one point below it. Sonic form would drop the line to the bottom.
Again, I really don't see any reason to rate Fate's defense below Nanoha's.

If anything, Nanoha's defense is more questionable in my mind. I've seen an awful lot take down Nanoha's magic shields - Vivio's punches, Vita's Graf Eisen, etc...

That being said, I appreciate you trying to meet me half-way, anyway.

Thinking about it even more... I'd put Fate's defense on par with Nanoha's, but increase Nanoha's agility a bit. Nanoha was hanging with Fate, speed-wise/maneuverability-wise, pretty good in their original anime fights.
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Old 2009-10-09, 04:17   Link #2071
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I would point out several things here.


Defense refers to the ability to withstand a hit and not take damage. Like Armor on a tank.
Fate's 'armor' (active defenses) is not very powerful, thus she doesn't rely on it. Especially after Nanoha made it clear in season when she was overpowered by Starlight Breaker Prototype.

Taking a blow as you would reffer to it as Fate taking damage and getting back up is not defense, but a stat that is similar to endurance. (Damage Absorbtion)

Likewise, the ability to parry blows in melee or deflect them is not defense in the sense being used here, but skill.

As for your downplay of nanoha's defense levels, you're equating a cross spectrum, cross timeline series of completely isolated events and applying them to a universal context that does not exist.

When Vita smashed Nanoha's barrier, she did so with a cartridge powered, rocket boosted hammer attack designed specificly for jack-hammering right through a barrier against a Nanoha who had not upgraded to matching equipment. (She had not leveled up yet one could say.) Note that later on, Vita never broke Nanoha's defenses.

When Nanoha was fighting Uber Vivio in the Cradle, she was severely hampered by a high density AMF field, stressed, exhausted, and holding herself back to buy time for her WAS to located Quattro. Note that despite the barrier getting busted, Nanoha was not put out of the fight thanks to a combination of her secondary defense (barrier jacket) and some Epic level Endurance on her part. She was under all those handicapping factors, and was still tanking Vivio attacks.

You cannot ignore these factors in determining Nanoha's defense. It is a Hasty Generalizaton Fallacy, Composition Fallacy, and Biassed Sample Fallacy all rolled into a neat little package and served with a side of Straw Man Fallacy.
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Old 2009-10-09, 05:23   Link #2072
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
No, you can't be. You really can't be. Not unless your agility and speed are off the charts... and I don't think that Fate is *that* good. To be a good melee fighter, you have to be able to take a hit, and come back strong. And Fate has. Numerous times.
Yes you can, and Fate proves it. You talked about how feats thrumps character appraisals... to a degree I agree, however let's deal with that later. For now, let's focus on said feats. Note how Fate, in every battle she lost, started to lose the moment she stopped dodging and began blocking. Fate versus Nanoha, Fate versus Signum, Fate versus Tre, in all of those battles the moment where she started blocking was the moment she started to lose.

This is also strike one against Fate's defenses being on the same level as Nanoha's, as Nanoha has repeatedly blocked very powerful attacks.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Fate also uses defensive maneuvers and defensive magic.
If by defensive maneuvers you mean dodging, that is classified as agility, and defensive magic is the entire point here.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Feats trumps character's appraisals of themselves. Every time.

Feats are iron clad evidence right in front of our eyes. Character appraisals can be very unreliable, due to either arrogance or humility.
And feats can be very deceiving if not backed up with appraisals of the situation. Let's take this example:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Again... noted. Said to be. That's not something to base a whole lot on. You base things on feats, imo. Did Vivio lift a 50 ton object, for example? Is there any ironclad reason to put a punch from Vivio at a higher level than an energy blast from Scaglietti?
Now, the 'Vivio punches Nanoha and knocks her down' feat. What does this feat, on its own, prove? Nothing. One can argue Vivio's attack was insane, one can argue Nanoha's defense was weak. Neither would be right or wrong, because there is no proof to substantiate the claim.

This is where appraisals come in. In this case, the DVD booklets blatantly said the Cradle's reactor boosted Vivio's power to frightening levels. Evidence to substantiate one of the claims has come forth: Vivio's powers are far above normal.

Similarly, dialog can accomplish the same feat. If Nanoha were to have said "Such powerful magic" it would show that Vivio's powers were far above the norm.

In this case, appraisals very much do mean more than feats. Booklets and the like are preferred, of course, since they are more objective, but dialog works too.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Well... that's Signum. That's the best pure melee fighter on the show. The same would hold true for Nanoha trying to defeat Signum, frankly.
Technically, Vita has more power than Signum. Warhammer versus sword and all that, destruction is Vita's specialty. Vita is a better barrier buster than Signum is, yet Fate could not defend herself against Signum's blows, where Nanoha could defend herself against Vita's.

Strike two against Nanoha and Fate having the same defenses.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Opponents trash-talking Fate is supposed to count for something? And Fate concurring in order to not get drawn into a pointless debate in the middle of a fight, is supposed to count for something?

I don't think that it does.
Now you are twisting events to suit your own ends. Please provide some proof that Signum was 'trashtalking' (seriously, can you even imagine Signum doing so?) and even more so, provide evidence that Fate was merely agreeing in order not to get drawn into a pointless debate.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Again, I really don't see any reason to rate Fate's defense below Nanoha's.
Then let me provide you with strike three, proven by your very own feats.

Let's take the best comparison. The Fate versus Nanoha fight. Nanoha managed to block Fate's most powerful attack, with the extra restriction that she was bound while doing so.

Fate, on the other hand, barely managed to block Nanoha's Divine Buster. heck, the shield was already being penetrated by just that blast alone, tearing her Barrier Jacket to shreds. Starlight Breaker completely obliterated it.

Nanoha survived Fate's most powerful attack without a scratch while being bound, while Fate was already almost down for the count by Nanoha's regular attack. Fate lost that battle the moment she stopped dodging and started blocking.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Thinking about it even more... I'd put Fate's defense on par with Nanoha's, but increase Nanoha's agility a bit. Nanoha was hanging with Fate, speed-wise/maneuverability-wise, pretty good in their original anime fights.
Well, Fate definitely has a higher agility. Flash Move allows short bursts of speed but straight line only, Sonic Move allows high speed maneuvering. Also, remember A's where Fate carried Nanoha away from Reinforce's Starlight Breaker. There's no reason to do that unless Fate is simply faster.
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Old 2009-10-09, 09:29   Link #2073
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Yes you can,
No, you can't. Not unless your agility and speed trumps everybody else's, and Fate's doesn't.


Quote:
...and Fate proves it.
That's circular reasoning, Keroko. Fate only supports your position if you accept that she has crappy defense... which I don't.

Also, one example is hardly a proof of anything. It could easily be an exception to the rule.

A good melee fighter ought to be able to take a hit, Keroko. Period.


Quote:

You talked about how feats trumps character appraisals... to a degree I agree,
You don't appear to agree at all. In fact, you actually argue the exact opposite. Your approach is the diametric opposite to the approach that I've seen serious on-line fighting boards take (i.e. boards that debate who would win in a fight between two characters).


Quote:
...however let's deal with that later. For now, let's focus on said feats. Note how Fate, in every battle she lost, started to lose the moment she stopped dodging and began blocking.
Fate didn't "stop dodging" against Nanoha. She simply got put in a bind. Dodging isn't exactly an option there.

But you see, Keroko... especially in an universe where binds exist, a good melee fighter needs to be able to take a hit. And Fate can... when she hasn't already had her defenses wore down by a divine buster.


Quote:
Fate versus Nanoha, Fate versus Signum, Fate versus Tre, in all of those battles the moment where she started blocking was the moment she started to lose.

This is also strike one against Fate's defenses being on the same level as Nanoha's, as Nanoha has repeatedly blocked very powerful attacks.
No, this isn't a strike against Fate's defenses being on the same level as Nanoha's. The destructive power of Nanoha's Divine Buster is at least on the same level as the very basic physical assaults that Vita used to break through Nanoha's shields.


Quote:
If by defensive maneuvers you mean dodging,
I mean using Bardiche to block physical attacks, and to slice through blast attacks. Fate uses Bardiche as an effective defensive weapon at times.


Quote:
And feats can be very deceiving if not backed up with appraisals of the situation.

Let's take this example:

Now, the 'Vivio punches Nanoha and knocks her down' feat. What does this feat, on its own, prove? Nothing.
Wrong. It proves that Vivio can knock through Nanoha's shields and proceed to down her in one hit. So, we can then draw comparisons between Vivio and other characters that have done that (most notably Vita).


Quote:
One can argue Vivio's attack was insane, one can argue Nanoha's defense was weak. Neither would be right or wrong, because there is no proof to substantiate the claim.
You're raising a false dichotomy here.

One can argue that Vivio's attack is very good, while Nanoha's defense is also good, but simply not as good as Vivio's attack. That is exactly what I'm arguing.


Quote:
This is where appraisals come in. In this case, the DVD booklets blatantly said the Cradle's reactor boosted Vivio's power to frightening levels.
"Frightening levels" is a fairly vague term. Many regular everyday people would find Vita's attacks to have "frightening levels" of power behind them.

Frankly, virtually anything superhuman can be called "frightening".


Quote:
Evidence to substantiate one of the claims has come forth: Vivio's powers are far above normal.
And what's "normal" in this case?


Quote:
Similarly, dialog can accomplish the same feat. If Nanoha were to have said "Such powerful magic" it would show that Vivio's powers were far above the norm.
Ah... but Nanoha didn't say that.


Quote:
In this case, appraisals very much do mean more than feats.
No, they don't.

Appraisals with out feats prove nothing.

Feats with out appraisals at least can point towards something concrete being true and valid.


Quote:
Technically, Vita has more power than Signum. Warhammer versus sword and all that, destruction is Vita's specialty. Vita is a better barrier buster than Signum is, ...
And what proof do you have of this?


Quote:
...yet Fate could not defend herself against Signum's blows, where Nanoha could defend herself against Vita's.
...Huh? Nanoha got taken out completely by Vita in their first fight. Fate did much better against Signum in their first fight against each other than Nanoha did against Vita in their first fight against each other.


Quote:
Strike two against Nanoha and Fate having the same defenses.
If anything, comparing Fate/Signum to Nanoha/Vita is a strike against Nanoha's defenses. Nanoha's magical defenses repeatedly fell to Vita's attacks. Meanwhile, Fate was at least able to use Bardiche to parlay some of Signum's attacks.


Quote:
Now you are twisting events to suit your own ends.
Given that you're using circular reasoning in at least one of your arguments, I don't think that you have much room to talk here.


Quote:
Please provide some proof that Signum was 'trashtalking' (seriously, can you even imagine Signum doing so?)
Yes, I can absolutely imagine Signum doing so. Signum is noble and stoic, but if she can verbally intimidate her opponent while using words that don't dishonor her, she may very well choose to do so.


Quote:
... and even more so, provide evidence that Fate was merely agreeing in order not to get drawn into a pointless debate.
Well, this is self-explanatory. It's generally not a good idea to get caught up in verbal jousting of your opponent's creation while you're also in physical combat with your opponent. Fate's smart enough to know that.

Anyway, Keroko, you really have to take what character's themselves say with a huge grain of salt. Characters overrate others (famous example: Batman calling the Ten-Eyes Man the most dangerous man ever ), and underrate others all the time.


Quote:
Then let me provide you with strike three, proven by your very own feats.

Let's take the best comparison. The Fate versus Nanoha fight. Nanoha managed to block Fate's most powerful attack, with the extra restriction that she was bound while doing so.

Fate, on the other hand, barely managed to block Nanoha's Divine Buster. heck, the shield was already being penetrated by just that blast alone, tearing her Barrier Jacket to shreds. Starlight Breaker completely obliterated it.
Well, here I would argue that Nanoha's offensive blasts are simply more powerful than Fate's. Honestly, I thought that this was self-evident. If Fate's offensive blasts were on par with Nanoha's, why would she take the riskier melee fighter route instead of the safer long-range shooter route?


Quote:
Fate lost that battle the moment she stopped dodging and started blocking.
Fate lost that battle because she was simply overpowered. With the possible exception of Hayate, Nanoha has the most powerful long-range magic attacks in this entire series. The way Nanoha dealt with Quattro proves that beyond a shadow of a doubt.


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Well, Fate definitely has a higher agility. Flash Move allows short bursts of speed but straight line only, Sonic Move allows high speed maneuvering. Also, remember A's where Fate carried Nanoha away from Reinforce's Starlight Breaker. There's no reason to do that unless Fate is simply faster.
I haven't watched that particular A's fight in awhile. I may look at it again to get a better sense of what you're referring to here.

Anyway, in their last battle, Nanoha continually took Fate off-guard, at least once with sheer speed. If there is a difference between them speed-wise, it's very minute.

The real difference between Nanoha and Fate is that Nanoha is a long-range blaster (for the most part) while Fate is a close-quarters melee fighter (for the most part). As such, it makes sense for Nanoha's blasts to be superior to Fate's, and it doesn't make sense at all for Fate's defense to be lower than Nanoha's.
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Old 2009-10-09, 10:11   Link #2074
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
No, you can't. Not unless your agility and speed trumps everybody else's, and Fate's doesn't.
A fighter in cloth with a rapier can win against a fighter in plate with an axe by virtue of being able to strike more quickly. Yes you can.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
A good melee fighter ought to be able to take a hit, Keroko. Period.
And yet, I have walked around winning fights without even taking a single hit at all. Curious, wouldn't you say?

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Fate didn't "stop dodging" against Nanoha. She simply got put in a bind. Dodging isn't exactly an option there.
Yes she did stop dodging. She stopped dodging the moment Nanoha began her Divine Buster, at that point Fate was not yet in a bind. What Fate did was try to block it, because Nanoha had blocked her attack and she felt she had to do the same.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
But you see, Keroko... especially in an universe where binds exist, a good melee fighter needs to be able to take a hit. And Fate can... when she hasn't already had her defenses wore down by a divine buster.
Yes, and this is critical. Fate's defenses had been worn by a single Divine Buster, while Nanoha was still unscratched after taking Fate's most powerful attack. While bound.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
No, this isn't a strike against Fate's defenses being on the same level as Nanoha's. The destructive power of Nanoha's Divine Buster is at least on the same level as the very basic physical assaults that Vita used to break through Nanoha's shields.
Source please.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I mean using Bardiche to block physical attacks, and to slice through blast attacks. Fate uses Bardiche as an effective defensive weapon at times.
Very scarcely. And often right before she loses.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Wrong. It proves that Vivio can knock through Nanoha's shields and proceed to down her in one hit. So, we can then draw comparisons between Vivio and other characters that have done that (most notably Vita).
No we can't. That's where the main flaw in saying 'feats trumph all' set in. We don't know how powerful Vivio's attack was, or how strong Nanoha's shields are. Right now all we can do is guess, which is what you are doing. Guess. However guesses are not facts.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
You're raising a false dichotomy here.

One can argue that Vivio's attack is very good, while Nanoha's defense is also good, but simply not as good as Vivio's attack. That is exactly what I'm arguing.
In other words: It's more powerful, which is then supported by the booklets placing it far beyond the norm.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
"Frightening levels" is a fairly vague term. Many regular everyday people would find Vita's attacks to have "frightening levels" of power behind them.

And what's "normal" in this case?
These are booklets which discuss the casts attacks and call most of Nanoha's move 'powerful.' Frightening in those booklets means frightening to the cast.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Ah... but Nanoha didn't say that.
I'm well aware. That's why I said could. Dialog can be used to explain differences in power, which is why characters speaking about their powers is very important.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
No, they don't.

Appraisals with out feats prove nothing.

Feats with out appraisals at least can point towards something concrete being true and valid.
And subjective. Let's take Signum's attack on Fate in A's, the rapid movement one. Say I call it a teleportation, and you a fast movement spell. Which of us is right? At this point, the feat itself proves nothing.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
And what proof do you have of this?
Vita's words. Breaking things is hers and Graff Eisen's specialty. Of course there's also supporting that Graff Eisen's design, which just screams "built for breaking" as well as booklets describing Vita's attacks as barrier breakers.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
...Huh? Nanoha got taken out completely by Vita in their first fight. Fate did much better against Signum in their first fight against each other than Nanoha did against Vita in their first fight against each other.
I am talking post-cartridge upgrade. Fate couldn't defend against Signum's blows to the point where she had to abandon blocking completely because it was fighting a losing battle.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Given that you're using circular reasoning in at least one of your arguments, I don't think that you have much room to talk here.
Not at all. I am hardly twisting events to suit my needs.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Yes, I can absolutely imagine Signum doing so. Signum is noble and stoic, but if she can verbally intimidate her opponent while using words that don't dishonor her, she may very well choose to do so.
Again, proof of this?

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Well, this is self-explanatory. It's generally not a good idea to get caught up in verbal jousting of your opponent's creation while you're also in physical combat with your opponent. Fate's smart enough to know that.
I am not asking for explanations why it would be a valid tactics, I am calling for proof of them doing so. Without proof, this claim is quite simply false.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Well, here I would argue that Nanoha's offensive blasts are simply more powerful than Fate's. Honestly, I thought that this was self-evident. If Fate's offensive blasts were on par with Nanoha's, why would she take the riskier melee fighter route instead of the safer long-range shooter route?
So Nanoha's regular attack is stronger than Fate's most powerful attack? I mean, Nanoha came out of that Phalanx Shift without a scratch on her body, and while in a bind no less! Meanwhile, Fate Barrier Jacket got torn to shreds by Nanoha's Divine Buster. This is not just a case of Nanoha having superior firepower (which she does) but also a case of her having superior defense.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Fate lost that battle because she was simply overpowered. With the possible exception of Hayate, Nanoha has the most powerful long-range magic attacks in this entire series. The way Nanoha dealt with Quattro proves that beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Yes, and she would not have lost that battle if she -here it comes- would have continued dodging instead of blocking. Her choice to block Nanoha's attack was what lead to her downfall, just like how choosing to block Signum's first strikes in A's lead to Bardiche being sliced in two, and blocking Tre lead to her being cornered. Fate is at her strongest when she is dodging, not blocking.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
As such, it makes sense for Nanoha's blasts to be superior to Fate's, and it doesn't make sense at all for Fate's defense to be lower than Nanoha's.
Try looking at it from an RPG style setting. Signum is a fighter, Fate is a rogue. Signum has strong armor to weather the blows that come her way, while Fate relies on dodging to protect herself.
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Old 2009-10-09, 10:40   Link #2075
Wild Goose
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Or in the trope definitions, Nanoha is the Tank, Fate is a Fragile Speedster, and Signum the Lightning Bruiser.

Also, something to point out: when Fate was teaching the Lightning Forwards, what did she tell them to do? Dodge. Now one can make an argument that dodging is needed for a support mage like Caro, but then when she tells Erio, the Neo-Belkan Melee mage that he needs to dodge, one starts to wonder.

You don't teach people something that you don't practice and believe.
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Old 2009-10-09, 11:20   Link #2076
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
A fighter in cloth with a rapier can win against a fighter in plate with an axe by virtue of being able to strike more quickly.
What you're talking about isn't melee fighting. It's stealth assault on one particular target, or hit-and-run on one particular target.

Melee fighting involves group fighting: It's not one-on-one with no other combat participants around.

From Wiki:

Melee... generally refers to disorganized close combat involving a group of fighters. A melee ensues when groups become locked together in combat with no regard to group tactics or fighting as an organized unit; each participant fights as an individual.

Bold emphasis mine.


This is why it's important for a good melee fighter to have good defense. Because in the event of group warfare where each participant fights as an individual, the likelihood of not getting hit at all is exceedingly slim (i.e. somebody on the other side that you're not fighting directly with could sneak attack you at any time).

Sure, in one-on-one combat with out other participants around, you can win a fight with out taking a single hit on the basis of speed advantage alone... but this is much more difficult to achieve in melee warfare.

And, interestingly enough... Fate had no choice but to use defensive acumen (i.e. blocking) against her opponents when she went into combat inside the cradle. The reason being that she was outnumbered 3-to-1, and hence dodging everything would quite possibly be beyond even her.

However, Fate won that fight, ultimately defeating all of her opponents here, demonstrating that she's a good melee fighter with good defense.

So...

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Yes you can.
No, you can't. A melee fighter needs good defense unless they have an unreal speed/agility advantage (I'm thinking of Hecate from Shakugan no Shana here).


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And yet, I have walked around winning fights without even taking a single hit at all. Curious, wouldn't you say?
Not if it's one-on-one, no.


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Yes she did stop dodging. She stopped dodging the moment Nanoha began her Divine Buster, at that point Fate was not yet in a bind. What Fate did was try to block it, because Nanoha had blocked her attack and she felt she had to do the same.
IIRC, Fate tried to counter that blast with one of her own, and her blast was disintegrated entirely by it. Then, in clear visible shock, she raised a shield. I'm not sure if dodging was an option at the point of shock here. Nanoha's blast had a significant thickness to it.

So... it's very debatable if she consciously chose to stop dodging or not, Keroko.


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Source please.
Nanoha's divine buster is obviously more powerful than Vita's most basic physical attacks. Vita herself was stunned by the potency of the blast, and was knocked backwards by it; even enraged by it.


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Very scarcely.
No, not very scarcely. Fate uses Bardiche as a defensive weapon frequently.


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And often right before she loses.
No, not often right before she loses.


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No we can't.
Yes we can, Keroko.


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That's where the main flaw in saying 'feats trumph all' set in.
There's no flaw whatsoever in saying 'feats triumph all'. This is the approach that serious fighting boards take; fighting boards that pit fictional characters against one another in combat.

They've been doing this for decades, and with wide consensus agreement.

Have you ever heard of Comic Book Rumbles?


Quote:
We don't know how powerful Vivio's attack was, or how strong Nanoha's shields are. Right now all we can do is guess, which is what you are doing. Guess. However guesses are not facts.
Feats provide a good basis for educated estimations. Appraisals are frequently completely wrong or dishonest.

Feats trump appraisals. Always.


Quote:
In other words: It's more powerful, which is then supported by the booklets placing it far beyond the norm.
Vivio's punching ability is more powerful than Nanoha's shields, yes.

Look, one reason why you don't put much credence in appraisals is because of things like exaggerations and hyperbole. This is very common through out fiction; creators amping up the assessment of the Big Bad (or whatever) beyond what feats demonstrate.

In the case of Vivio, she clearly wasn't all that awesome, or she would have curbstomped Nanoha.


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These are booklets which discuss the casts attacks and call most of Nanoha's move 'powerful.' Frightening in those booklets means frightening to the cast.
Nanoha didn't seem very frightened to me, during her fight with Vivio.


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I'm well aware. That's why I said could. Dialog can be used to explain differences in power, which is why characters speaking about their powers is very important.
Perhaps, but it's not as important as feats. Feats are concrete evidence right in front of your eyes. The picture tells the story. The picture doesn't exaggerate, or use hyperbole, or engage in bragging or insulting, or lie. Claims about powers are obviously very open to all of the above, and hence less trustworthy.


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And subjective. Let's take Signum's attack on Fate in A's, the rapid movement one. Say I call it a teleportation, and you a fast movement spell. Which of us is right? At this point, the feat itself proves nothing.
Wrong, Keroko.

Totally wrong. I can't believe that you're making such an awful argument.

The feat itself proves that Signum can move very rapidly from Point A to Point B. The means used to achieve this is secondary to the objective fact, proved by the feat, that she can move rapidly from Point A to Point B.


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Vita's words.
So Vita is above boasting? Or trying to infuse herself with greater self-confidence?


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Breaking things is hers and Graff Eisen's specialty. Of course there's also supporting that Graff Eisen's design, which just screams "built for breaking" as well as booklets describing Vita's attacks as barrier breakers.
This proves absolutely nothing as far as Vita/Signum comparisons are concerned.


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I am talking post-cartridge upgrade. Fate couldn't defend against Signum's blows to the point where she had to abandon blocking completely because it was fighting a losing battle.
And Nanoha couldn't defend against Vita and Vivio's blows.


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Not at all. I am hardly twisting events to suit my needs.
Keroko... it is obviously circular reasoning to argue that "Fate has crappy defense. Hence, Fate proves that a good melee fighter can have crappy defense. Thus, saying that Fate being a good melee fighter means that she should have good defense is wrong" in a debate centering around whether or not Fate has crappy defense.


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Again, proof of this?
The very fact that she argued that Fate couldn't take a signal hit from her is telling, don't you think? Why would you want to let your opponent in on a weakness that they have?

On the other hand, it makes sense to try to unnerve your opponent by having them underestimate their chances to win the battle.


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I am not asking for explanations why it would be a valid tactics, I am calling for proof of them doing so. Without proof, this claim is quite simply false.
The fact that it makes for valid tactics means that it is a plausible explanation for why Fate is saying what she's saying there, Keroko. Given that it is a plausible explanation that fits the shown feats, it's far more valuable than appraisals taken purely at face value.


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So Nanoha's regular attack is stronger than Fate's most powerful attack?
Divine Buster wasn't Nanoha's "regular" attack at the time. It only became that after Nanoha introduced the Starlite Breaker... later on in the fight against Fate. Fate didn't see that coming. She was startled that Nanoha had something greater than the Divine Buster.


Quote:
I mean, Nanoha came out of that Phalanx Shift without a scratch on her body, and while in a bind no less! Meanwhile, Fate Barrier Jacket got torn to shreds by Nanoha's Divine Buster. This is not just a case of Nanoha having superior firepower (which she does) but also a case of her having superior defense.
I disagree. Superior firepower explains everything, in my opinion.


Quote:
Yes, and she would not have lost that battle if she -here it comes- would have continued dodging instead of blocking.
I don't know if she had the choice to dodge at that juncture. The blast was coming fast, and had disintegrated Fate's own counter blast, much to Fate's shock.


Quote:
Try looking at it from an RPG style setting. Signum is a fighter, Fate is a rogue. Signum has strong armor to weather the blows that come her way, while Fate relies on dodging to protect herself.
No, Fate is not a rogue. Rogues would not engage in lengthy one-on-one fights, and rogues certainly wouldn't engage in one-on-three fights where they're outnumbered. You have to be able to take a hit to try such things.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Or in the trope definitions, Nanoha is the Tank, Fate is a Fragile Speedster, and Signum the Lightning Bruiser.
Fate is not a Fragile Speedster. Fate is a melee fighter with good defense.


Quote:

Also, something to point out: when Fate was teaching the Lightning Forwards, what did she tell them to do? Dodge. Now one can make an argument that dodging is needed for a support mage like Caro, but then when she tells Erio, the Neo-Belkan Melee mage that he needs to dodge, one starts to wonder.

You don't teach people something that you don't practice and believe.
Dodging makes sense for everybody in this series when it's a viable option. It makes sense since it conserves magical energy vis a vis making an energy shield.
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Old 2009-10-09, 12:47   Link #2077
Takamura Mamoru
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Signum is noble and stoic, but if she can verbally intimidate her opponent while using words that don't dishonor her, she may very well choose to do so.
Actually, she was praising Fate's strength all the time.

Quote:
And Nanoha couldn't defend against Vita
Post cartridge upgrade?
She doesn't look too troubled to me..

Do note that Nanoha had to go so high over the limit she lost 9% of her strength, permanently, to defeat Vivio.

I'd also like to quote Signum's and Fate's thoughts when fighting against each other.

Quote:
Signum: She's come here and become faster and faster. She hit me with an attack I couldn't even follow. If I don't finish this quickly, I'll be in trouble.

Fate: She's strong. She keeps overpowering me in close and middle range. I'm just fooling her with my speed. If I take another strong blow like that, I'll be finished!
And lastly, I'd like to mention that I have both Endurance and Defense in the attributes. "Being able to take a hit" goes to endurance, which I didn't put that low. "Defending against a hit" goes to defense.

Physically, she can take blows, she's not weak. She just has no defense, which is why every blow hurts that much more. Especially in Sonic Form. For Signum, it was necessary since Signum was stronger than her in almost all fields, so Fate sacrificed it all to have at least one field where she has the huge advantage (speed).
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Old 2009-10-09, 15:18   Link #2078
Kaijo
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Didn't want a new thread for this, but not sure where the best place to put these thoughts. So I suppose my question would be if someone had already thought along these lines, as I'm getting some research and thoughts together for a fanfic, and wanted to see if there were any holes in my interpretation of this subject:

Belka vs. Mid styles

I'm going to approach this from a different angle, and hopefully resolve any contradictions or issues people see.

First, let's go back to Ancient Belka; what do we have? A King. Knights. What imagery does this conjure up? Like medieval Europe with their nobility, royalty, honor system, pheasants and knights. Or medieval Japan with their emperor, nobility, Samurai(knights), and an honor system.

If Midchilda's history is anything like earths, there were fiefdoms that fought or allied for power and resources. Each kingdom or fiefdom had standing armies. Like most Earth armies, they probably evolved into specialized units. Earth had foot soldiers, cavalry, archers and the support staff (medics, healers, spies, sabotage, craftsmen to make weapons, etc.). What does this sound like? Let me put it into specifics:

Signum - mounted cavalry, using speed to outflank opponents (not odd for Samurai to master both bow and sword)
Vita - Foot Soldier, knight, charge straight ahead and punch through
Shamal - support; the healer, craftsman, etc. that I mentioned above
Zalfiras - a bit tougher to put into perspective, but consider that medieval societies did use dogs for guard duty. I can assume ancient belka used magics to create creatures for combat, which would serve and protect alongside the main units.

And Hayate? Archer. Or catapult or trebuchet if you prefer. :P

In Ancient Belka, I would assume people would specialize into these types, just as they did on Earth. So Yuuno, a learned man of histories, saw Signum and Vita fighting, he came to the same conclusion you or I would, if we saw someone in armor fighting with a sword, or a guy in a kimono swinging a samurai sword in today's time.

So, to me, "Ancient Belka Style" merely means a specialization in a type of combat. It's a focus on one. How do I see Midchilda style, then? Let's start turning the clock ahead.

Ancient Belka falls, for one reason or another. Some knowledge and specialities is probably lost, such as the cartridge system. In fact, if I were a kingdom back in those days and wanted to take over a neighbor, I'd aim to destroy their ability to make cartridges; without them, my army could cut through theirs like Sig and Vita do to Fate and Nanoha in A's eps 1 and 2. So people with the know-how to make cartridges, were probably a high target for conversion or elimination.

Anyway, Belka falls, armies scatter, go back to their hometowns, or get killed. The ones who survive, are those that use magic in new and unique ways, that aren't tied down to a specialty that has a glaring weakness. Also, getting cartridges gets harder, so that particular battle tactic falls out of general use.

Magic evolves from this, as scattered people do magical research and testing. Beasts that were probably created by several mages and not tied to their creater's magicforce, eventually become familiars that are. As we evolve into modern midchilda, the need for specialized army units becomes less and less needed as time goes. Some, like Zest, survive into the present, but he's the exception.

Today's times demand a well-rounded skillset for agents and enforcers, which are the current end result of magic's evolution. And thus, the modern Mid-childia style came into being. It might go a bit against the "manga canon", but that could be explained by the person explaining how the current identification works in the TSAB: While they have primarily been using Midchildian style for longer ranged attacks(it's generally better to get rid of your enemy before they can get close, guns. vs swords reasoning), they recently began incorporating an upfront melee style which draws upon the ancient Belka for inspiration, ie, a modern Belka style.

So all that's left is the magic symbols, the Belka triangle and Midchildian circles. But we also have IS cyborg multi-circles and summoning squares. What I think this refers to is the "base" a spell's power is drawn from. If you've played the later Final Fantasy games, this can be interpreted to the animation around your character, that's different when casting a white, black, or summoning spell. So a character could summon up both a belka triangle and midchildian circle depending on which school of magic they are drawing from. Most stick with one school, though.

If you play FFXI Online, there is a single-target sleep spell in both white and black magics. One is called "Sleep" and one is called "Repose." So while someone in Nanoha-verse may be casting similar spells, they still could be from differing schools of magic.

At least, this is how my brain currently organizes things. Make sense? Any glaring holes?
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Old 2009-10-09, 19:17   Link #2079
Wild Goose
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Fate is not a Fragile Speedster. Fate is a melee fighter with good defense.
I'll grant that she has decent defense in her standard mode, but that goes out the window in Sonic Form, where she dumps everything into speed.

Quote:
Dodging makes sense for everybody in this series when it's a viable option. It makes sense since it conserves magical energy vis a vis making an energy shield.
And yet what is being taught to Subaru and Teana? Subaru is taught to use shields and barriers appropriately to protect herself. Teana is being taught to be a human CIWS - note that when Teana dodged in that training episode, Nanoha was going, "No no no, you can't be dodging."
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Old 2009-10-10, 00:41   Link #2080
Kikaifan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Takamura Mamoru View Post
Actually, she was praising Fate's strength all the time.


Post cartridge upgrade?
She doesn't look too troubled to me..

Do note that Nanoha had to go so high over the limit she lost 9% of her strength, permanently, to defeat Vivio.

I'd also like to quote Signum's and Fate's thoughts when fighting against each other.
Was retconned so that the knights were going easy on them, probably with an eye towards StrikerS. In post-A's manga Nanoha says as much, and in the sound stages Signum flat-out says her relationship with Fate can't be considered a rivalry yet because Fate's no match for her.

Anyway I like to class things more in terms of combat styles than raw abilities; I think Signum's dominance in that kind of chart makes sense but because of her narrow combat style it's not the advantage it looks like.

Personally I class Fate as a skirmisher. With her speed and all-range capability she choose her tactics to suit her opponent and fight wherever they're weakest or just mix up ranged and melee. She's valuable in a formation for intercepting, spoiling, flanking, and such but I generally feel that her raw combat power is a bit below Nanoha and Signum.

Nanoha's definitely ranged; she may be able to defend herself adequately at close range but you never see her closing in for the kill like Signum or Fate would. She has a wide range of spells too, but unlike Fate they all support a single tactical doctrine... which is good old-fashioned pin 'em down and blow 'em up. She seems to use active defenses a lot more than other characters, but since she depends on her mobility somewhat less than the others that's not surprising.

Signum's combat style is totally singleminded. She has no fast ranged abilities to toss at enemies to 'keep them busy'; she's has to either close with the enemy or transform her weapon to attack, which requires her to commit heavily every step of the way when she's fighting. With hardly any variety in spells she's pretty much just depending on raw skill and strong armor to win fights, and I think this is why she shows an advantage in raw stats. I also think she has a big edge in a fight to the death because of how different her second fight with Zest went.

Vita's kind of in the middle; she's still focused on close combat but she hasn't had a chance to show skills on Signum's level. On the other hand she actually has a basic ranged attack, and her weapon forms may look pretty unwieldy but they do put her solidly above Signum in damage potential. Still, she feels a bit limited compared to the other three to me.
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