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Old 2009-10-10, 07:45   Link #2081
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Takamura Mamoru View Post


And lastly, I'd like to mention that I have both Endurance and Defense in the attributes. "Being able to take a hit" goes to endurance, which I didn't put that low. "Defending against a hit" goes to defense.
I see your rationale much better now. I interpreted "Endurance" as "Stamina", and "Defense" as magical defense/physical durability/blocking ability all rolled into one. In this vein, I took "Endurance" to mean how long the person can keep going (in battle, in flight, in energy discharge, etc...) before they just collapse from sheer exhaustion.

With Endurance meaning "physical durability" and Defense meaning "special/magical defensive shielding", I have far less of an issue with your stat schematics. My main problem with Fate's low "Defense" stat schematic is that it struck me as saying that Fate was as fragile/unable to take a hit as a RPG bard. As a Fate fan, I decidedly didn't like the idea, lol. But since it doesn't mean that, I'll let this debate go.


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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
I'll grant that she has decent defense in her standard mode, but that goes out the window in Sonic Form, where she dumps everything into speed.
True.


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And yet what is being taught to Subaru and Teana? Subaru is taught to use shields and barriers appropriately to protect herself. Teana is being taught to be a human CIWS - note that when Teana dodged in that training episode, Nanoha was going, "No no no, you can't be dodging."
... Strange. Teana's ability to cast illusions of herself strikes me as an ideal ability for a dodger.

Subaru is a tank, though, so I can see Nanoha's point there.
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Old 2009-10-10, 09:01   Link #2082
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When Nanoha went "no, no dodging" to Teana, she mainly went that "When in a group, your job as the middle support is to call shots, shoot enemies, warn allies, you can't do that if you're rolling on the ground like that."

Most of the mages in Nanoha don't dodge very much. *Points to Signum just standing there and armor tanking Fate's attacks in Nanoha As.* Seriously, that was just to show off.

Though Fate was teaching Erio and Caro that since they aren't nearly as tough as Subaru or Teana that they need to learn how to dodge.

Edit: To be fair to Nanoha's criticizing of Teana's rolling is actually something that Armed Forces in the US (Green Berets for example) frown upon as well. You're wasting time rolling around when you could just easily be shooting your enemy.

Though Teana's rolling is a nod to some other Armed Forces in the world (Soviet Speznek for example) that train their units to be rolling and shooting.
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Old 2009-10-10, 09:16   Link #2083
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Spoiler for Big pic:


I have to admit, this is awesome.

Ha! Reinforce I trumps all. XD
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Old 2009-10-10, 10:21   Link #2084
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You know, I had a massive quote replying post tapped up, but then I did some digging and found the case closer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I disagree. Superior firepower explains everything, in my opinion.
So Fate's Phalanx Shift is weaker than a Divine Buster in your opinion?

Well, the facts seem to argue your opinion. Photon Lancer Phalanx Shift is ranked AAA in power, whereas Divine Buster is an A+ ranked attack.

So let's re-capture. Nanoha managed to defend herself against a AAA ranked attack without so much as a scratch on her body, whereas Fate was already exhausted and had her Barrier Jacket torn to shreds after being hit by an A+ attack.

Nanoha's defense is quite simply more powerful than Fate's.

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Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
Spoiler for Big pic:


I have to admit, this is awesome.

Ha! Reinforce I trumps all. XD
Reinforce is h4xx!

... But then, we already knew that. :3
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Old 2009-10-10, 10:33   Link #2085
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
When Nanoha went "no, no dodging" to Teana, she mainly went that "When in a group, your job as the middle support is to call shots, shoot enemies, warn allies, you can't do that if you're rolling on the ground like that."

Most of the mages in Nanoha don't dodge very much. *Points to Signum just standing there and armor tanking Fate's attacks in Nanoha As.* Seriously, that was just to show off.

Though Fate was teaching Erio and Caro that since they aren't nearly as tough as Subaru or Teana that they need to learn how to dodge.

Edit: To be fair to Nanoha's criticizing of Teana's rolling is actually something that Armed Forces in the US (Green Berets for example) frown upon as well. You're wasting time rolling around when you could just easily be shooting your enemy.

Though Teana's rolling is a nod to some other Armed Forces in the world (Soviet Speznek for example) that train their units to be rolling and shooting.
I see your point here. While I think that Teana is generally better off dodging attacks than tanking them, as an excellent shooter/tactician, she can't be rolling away from enemy fire all the time, either. Her role requires her to have good command and control of the theater of battle, and that means she needs to keep her head up as much as possible.


I actually felt that Teana underestimated herself a fair bit in StrikerS. Granted, her pure offensive output might be the weakest of the team, but she has an excellent tactical head on her shoulders; possibly even greater than her superiors, frankly. I was impressed with many of the attack plans that Teana came up with; she's an ideal field commander.
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Old 2009-10-10, 10:36   Link #2086
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I agree with the dodging. I think she'd be better off ducking for cover rather than rolling though, and I think that's what Nanoha was also trying to cover.

Plus, if you're too busy dodging, you're too busy to give cover fire, and that's no good.
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Old 2009-10-10, 10:40   Link #2087
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
You know, I had a massive quote replying post tapped up, but then I did some digging and found the case closer.



So Fate's Phalanx Shift is weaker than a Divine Buster in your opinion?
Yes, that is my opinion.

Look... if Fate has long-range power more or less on par with Nanoha, and crappy defense, then why would she choose to be a melee fighter, of all things? Is she simply suicidal?

Top-notch long-range power combined with weak defense means you should be a long-range shooter, imo.

Think of RPG games where you have a top-notch magic-caster with weak defense. Do you put them in the back of the formation, or on the front line?


Quote:

Well, the facts seem to argue your opinion. Photon Lancer Phalanx Shift is ranked AAA in power, whereas Divine Buster is an A+ ranked attack.
Where are you getting these rankings from?


Quote:

Nanoha's defense is quite simply more powerful than Fate's.
I disagree. We may have to agree to disagree here, Keroko. I'm fine with that if you are.
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Old 2009-10-10, 10:43   Link #2088
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There's also the difference between close combat and ranged combat. In close combat dodging is preferred over blocking your opponents attacks (though this varies per weapon, some weapons are made to take advantage of blocking) Overall though, for most weaponry dodging is preferred, as blocking merely introduces a stalemate which can go either way, while dodging creates openings for you to take advantage off.

Ranged combat goes too fast. Dodge one bullet and the enemy already has a next one ready to fire. It doesn't create openings the same way close combat does.
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Old 2009-10-10, 10:47   Link #2089
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
There's also the difference between close combat and ranged combat. In close combat dodging is preferred over blocking your opponents attacks (though this varies per weapon, some weapons are made to take advantage of blocking) Overall though, for most weaponry dodging is preferred, as blocking merely introduces a stalemate which can go either way, while dodging creates openings for you to take advantage off.

Ranged combat goes too fast. Dodge one bullet and the enemy already has a next one ready to fire. It doesn't create openings the same way close combat does.
Those are good points. I completely agree with you here, Keroko.
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Old 2009-10-10, 10:56   Link #2090
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I actually felt that Teana underestimated herself a fair bit in StrikerS. Granted, her pure offensive output might be the weakest of the team, but she has an excellent tactical head on her shoulders; possibly even greater than her superiors, frankly. I was impressed with many of the attack plans that Teana came up with; she's an ideal field commander.
A lot of Teana's underestimation of herself was because she wasn't quite as strong or as 'special' as the other members of her squad; I can't remember what episode she said it in, but she commented that she seemed to be the only normal one in the group; i.e., her magical power wasn't as strong as Subaru, or Caro, or even Erio, at least in her mind. Personally, I enjoyed her character arc in StrikerS, it was definitely one of the best of the season.

Teana makes up for her lack of power with her attack plans. There's a reason why her battle with Nove and Wendi is considered her Took A Level In Badass moment. It was incredible to see a girl who earlier in the season had doubted herself completely become strong enough and smart enough to take down her oppnonet while outnumbered. And injured.
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Old 2009-10-10, 10:57   Link #2091
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Look... if Fate has long-range power more or less on par with Nanoha, and crappy defense, then why would she choose to be a melee fighter, of all things? Is she simply suicidal?
Apparently. Fate's combat style hasn't changed much after so long and I would say Precia's hand in molding her combat and mage style did that much.
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Old 2009-10-10, 10:58   Link #2092
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Yes, that is my opinion.

Look... if Fate has long-range power more or less on par with Nanoha, and crappy defense, then why would she choose to be a melee fighter, of all things? Is she simply suicidal?
No, she simply knows how to not get hit. Like rogues. Don't get me wrong, Nanoha does have superior firepower, but not in this attack. And the numbers (or rather letters, in this case) prove it.

Where am I getting these rankings from?

Right here. I can quote the relevant information bits if you like:

Photon Lancer: Phalanx Shift.

使用者:フェイト・テスタロッサ
魔法ランク:AAA
フォトンランサーのバリエーションにして、1期時点でのフェイトの最大攻撃魔法。
30発以上のフォトンスフィアより繰り出される、フォトンランサーの一点集中高速連射。
小説版によると、生成されるフォトンスフィアは38基。 ここから毎秒7発の斉射を4秒継続することで、合計1064発のフォトンランサーを目標に叩きつけることに なる。 メガミマガジンの設定資料での記載もほぼ同様で、継続時間の表記はないが『合計38基のフォトンスフィアか ら秒間7発の高速連射を行う「一斉射撃」』とされている。
フェイトの教育をしていたリニスが、機動力に頼りがちなフェイトの絶対防御対策として考案した 。 リニスがフェイトに手本として見せたときは発射体は20体に満たなかったが、フェイトに課した目標は最低3 0体の生成だった。 当初フェイトは3体までしか生成できず、本人も同時発動・制御が苦手だった。 しかし、そのためにリニスの作ったインテリジェントデバイス・バルディッシュを手にすることによって、この 魔法も完成に至った。(以上小説版)
なのはのスターライトブレイカーほどではないが、この魔法も呪文詠唱にそれなりの時間が掛かるため、使いど ころはかなり難しい部類と言える。 本編中では、なのはをライトニングバインドで拘束して時間を稼いでいた。 また、フェイト自身の魔力を莫大に消費するため、1度使うと後がない状態に追い込まれかねないことも注意点 と思われる。
リニスは発動・命中さえすれば防げる相手はまずいないと言っていた。 小説ではバリアジャケットの原形をかろうじて保っていられるほどの損害をなのはに与えたが、アニメ本編では まったくの無傷に終わった(VFB054)。
因みに「Phalanx Shift」は、古代ギリシャに端を発した攻防一体の密集陣形戦法であるファランクスが由来と思われる。 それに由来するバルカンファランクスと呼ばれる圧倒的な連射速度を持つ機関砲もある。 本編中での発動呪文は以下の通り。

Divine Buster:
使用者:高町なのは
射程:A+
攻撃力:A
発射速度:C
なのはの主砲(この呼び方は1期、A'sDVDブックレットに記載された)。
膨大な魔力を直接目標に向けて放出するという、シンプルながら高威力の攻撃魔法。
その威力は、叩きつける魔力だけで強引に「封印」が出来るほど。また強靭なバリア貫通能力を持っている。1 期第11話のフェイトとの決戦では、フォトンランサーの発射体をやすやすと打ち砕いた上に、ラウンドシール ドを展開したフェイトにバリアジャケットに影響が出るほど大ダメージを与えた(シールドの上からでもフェイ トの魔力を削り取り、結果としてフェイトがバリアジャケットを維持できなくなった)。魔力のぶつかり合いな らば、ほぼ負けなしの威力を誇る。
レイジングハートのシューティングモードから使用される。
使用時に、レイジングハートを4つの環状魔法陣が取り巻くのが印象的。 この環状魔法陣が魔力の増大・加速を行っている。
一方トレカや1期DVD1巻ブックレットでは、杖の周囲に形成されているのは帯状魔法陣で、魔力の放出・集 束のコントロールを行っているとされている。
発射に少し時間がかかるので、なのははフラッシュ・ムーブやディバインシューターと連携させるなど、距離を とるために工夫している。
1期第3話での初出時には、ユーノは、自分はできない長距離魔法を使ったなのはの才能に感心し ていた。 ただし、このときは封印を目的としていて、名称は出ていない。名称の初出は1期第4話。
使用話数:1期第3話、他多数

Oh, and while translators are funky, I did catch something in Phalanx Shift mentioning Fate relying on mobility. Could anyone translate that?
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Last edited by Keroko; 2009-10-10 at 12:43.
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Old 2009-10-10, 11:28   Link #2093
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Originally Posted by RadiantBeam View Post
A lot of Teana's underestimation of herself was because she wasn't quite as strong or as 'special' as the other members of her squad; I can't remember what episode she said it in, but she commented that she seemed to be the only normal one in the group; i.e., her magical power wasn't as strong as Subaru, or Caro, or even Erio, at least in her mind.
And it was very stupid of her. Because she IS another monster there. Her illusions are in the same category as Caro summoning: "very useful, but chance of finding anybody that can do it is like finding snowball in hell". Plus her brains are top grade. When she started to concentrate on that two points she fit nicely.
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Old 2009-10-10, 11:58   Link #2094
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Yes, that is my opinion.

Look... if Fate has long-range power more or less on par with Nanoha, and crappy defense, then why would she choose to be a melee fighter, of all things? Is she simply suicidal?
Because once you get in melee range - and she has the speed and movement magic to close very quickly - your chances of getting hit by a big ranged attack become much lower.

This isn't a typical fantasy setting; magical ranged combat is the norm and melee is a relatively rare specialization. A mage getting in close isn't asking for a pounding; they're more likely to know how to fight there than their opponent so they're probably going to be giving one out instead.

In other words, melee suits an aggressive, speed-based strategy quite well in the Nanohaverse.
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Old 2009-10-10, 12:11   Link #2095
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
... Strange. Teana's ability to cast illusions of herself strikes me as an ideal ability for a dodger.

Subaru is a tank, though, so I can see Nanoha's point there.
Basically, Nanoha was trying to turn her into a combination AWACS-CIWS; Teana would manage the battlespace and coordinate the Forwards while shooting down everything that was flying away at them - she wasn't supposed to dodge enemy fire, she was supposed to shoot it down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
When Nanoha went "no, no dodging" to Teana, she mainly went that "When in a group, your job as the middle support is to call shots, shoot enemies, warn allies, you can't do that if you're rolling on the ground like that."
Which was really terrible advice, frankly - she was wanting Teana to be a stationary target, shooting down everything. The problem with being a human point defense is that it's only a matter of time before you're overwhelmed - and when you're concentrating on intercepting enemy fire, you can't exactly spare much thought for coordinating your team.

Note that when Tea moved away from what Nanoha was teaching she started getting more success. And don't forget the Hotel Augusta incident, where she was pretty much shooting everything that moved on on full auto, thanks to Nanoha's training.

Quote:
Most of the mages in Nanoha don't dodge very much. *Points to Signum just standing there and armor tanking Fate's attacks in Nanoha As.* Seriously, that was just to show off.

Though Fate was teaching Erio and Caro that since they aren't nearly as tough as Subaru or Teana that they need to learn how to dodge.

Edit: To be fair to Nanoha's criticizing of Teana's rolling is actually something that Armed Forces in the US (Green Berets for example) frown upon as well. You're wasting time rolling around when you could just easily be shooting your enemy.

Though Teana's rolling is a nod to some other Armed Forces in the world (Soviet Speznek for example) that train their units to be rolling and shooting.
Evasive action isn't something that's used alot in the Nanoverse, although that might be because of the fact that evasive action is mitigated by homing rounds, requiring people to learn how to tank.

Also, rolling is not quite frowned upon - it's the purpose of the rolling. Throwing yourself on the ground lets you evade the first shot, but it takes you longer to get back up and reorient compared to rolling. And then, if you've just been shot in the legs, at least if you turn your fall into a roll you can come up fighting, like what happened to LTC Erik Kurilla in Iraq; chasing an insurgent, Kurilla was shot in the legs and went down, and turned his fall into a roll so that he came up with his M4 up and ready.

Referring to this link, point 9: Roll instead of crawling, because rolling is faster. (Note that the author is a retired Marine NCO.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
I agree with the dodging. I think she'd be better off ducking for cover rather than rolling though, and I think that's what Nanoha was also trying to cover.

Plus, if you're too busy dodging, you're too busy to give cover fire, and that's no good.
No, Nanoha was saying that she shouldn't dodge, she needed to shoot down every single thing heading her way and her teammates' way.

Also, remember that it was an open patch of grass ringed by trees. Not much cover, so she ducked and rolled away from a shot she couldn't intercept.

As for the too busy dodging to give cover fire... that's the whole point of suppression fire, which is to keep the enemy from poking their heads up and shooting at you. In this case Tea was beginning to be suppressed and attempted to dodge a shot she couldn't intercept and move to a different position to give herself a breather and reorient.
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Old 2009-10-10, 12:55   Link #2096
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
No, she simply knows how to not get hit.
She gets hit a fair bit, Keroko. Even Scaglietti managed to catch her, and hit her with a shot.


Quote:
Like rogues. Don't get me wrong, Nanoha does have superior firepower, but not in this attack. And the numbers (or rather letters, in this case) prove it.
Well, whether or not it proves it depends on how reliable Nanoha Wiki is (thanks for the link). Regular Wiki is infamous for not always being reliable. Is Nanoha Wiki maintained by the makers of the Nanoha anime, or by Nanoha fans like you and I?

Finally... what's the rationale given for ranking Phalanx Shift over Divine Buster?

Note: Why did you edit out your offer to agree to disagree? I'm genuinely curious there.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kikaifan View Post
Because once you get in melee range - and she has the speed and movement magic to close very quickly - your chances of getting hit by a big ranged attack become much lower.

This isn't a typical fantasy setting; magical ranged combat is the norm and melee is a relatively rare specialization.
Hhmmm... Signum, Vita, Vivio, Subaru, most of the Numbers IIRC... are all much more melee fighters than magical ranged specialist. Melee certainly doesn't seem like a rare specialization to me.

Heck, of the four young protagonists in training in StrikerS, only Teana is a magical ranged specialist, and her magical blasts are fairly weak in comparison to other magical blasts.
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Old 2009-10-10, 12:59   Link #2097
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
No, Nanoha was saying that she shouldn't dodge, she needed to shoot down every single thing heading her way and her teammates' way.

Also, remember that it was an open patch of grass ringed by trees. Not much cover, so she ducked and rolled away from a shot she couldn't intercept.

As for the too busy dodging to give cover fire... that's the whole point of suppression fire, which is to keep the enemy from poking their heads up and shooting at you. In this case Tea was beginning to be suppressed and attempted to dodge a shot she couldn't intercept and move to a different position to give herself a breather and reorient.
Though in all fairness, the basic message of Nanoha's lesson wasn't wrong. Once Teana starts dodging, the enemy can take her time shooting while Teana is too busy dodging to counter. The problem is that Nanoha's lessons were tailored towards ranged fighting ranged, and placed Teana in a support role that guarded both herself and her teammates. Unfortunately, most of Teana's opponents ended up being melee opponents, during which the lesson we saw ended up being useless.

It should also be noted that dodging in mage combat is not always the wisest of choices. It works fine against drones, but dodging a mage shot doesn't mean you can stop worrying about the shot you dodged. Chances are you are now being attacked attacked from two sides.

It's like the saying "don't turn your back on the enemy" dodging, or more specifically rolling, gives your enemy the chance to act while your eye is off them.
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Old 2009-10-10, 12:59   Link #2098
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Double Standard Fallacy involving the Wiki.

Watch your claims Triple_R.
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Old 2009-10-10, 13:03   Link #2099
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Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Double Standard Fallacy involving the Wiki.


Where am I making a double standard? Asking if Nanoha Wiki is like regular Wiki is not a double standard at all.


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Watch your claims Triple_R.
That's needlessly confrontational, AdmiralTigerclaw.
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Old 2009-10-10, 13:11   Link #2100
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You made a previous claim and supported it (with bold lettering for emphasis mind you) with Wiki information. And you then called the information recently pulled from a Wiki into question on the basis of it being wiki.

That can be, and is a Double Standard Fallacy. It's a rather minor instance, but I thought I'd point that out before the argument could get shanghai'd.

I'm just letting you know to watch your claims. Sometimes they can bite back if you're not careful. I was watching for it ever since you made the refference to wiki earlier. (I was even tempted to point out that you should have gotten the definition of 'melee' from Dictionary.com, rather than Wikipedia.)

Wiki refferences are rather notorious for ending up with Double Standard Fallacies.


EDIT: *Added link*
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Ernest 'Admiral Tigerclaw' Hart
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