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Old 2009-10-14, 20:53   Link #1
Triple_R
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Anime Suki's Spoiler Policy

I wanted to provide some feedback on Anime Suki's Spoiler Policy.

For the most part, I feel that the Spoiler Policy is very well-structured. I certainly see its rationale as it pertains to anime episodes, which are typically watched in, near, or shortly after, "real time" - hence drawing in fans and thread commentators that aren't necessarily fans of the source material.

However, as it pertains to upcoming anime movies to be shown in theaters, and based on particular manga sections, or novel source material...

My view here is that these discussions tend to naturally attract people who are fans of the source material being turned into the anime movie. In other words, there's already familiarity with the source material there for thread commentators.

These discussions aren't likely to attract anime-only fans since the actual content of these movies won't be available for several months... as with live-action movies that are adaptations of, say, a popular cartoon series (Transformers, for example), the only people that'll be talking about the movie several months in advance are folks that are actually already fans of the cartoon/of the source material.

Likewise, the same, I think, pretty much holds true for discussions on upcoming anime movies.

So... I would argue that perhaps Anime Suki's Spoiler Policy should be edited to include a special exception for Movie Threads. It really has been my experience that these threads attract very few, if any, anime-only fans.

While it would probably be a good idea to still insist upon using spoiler tags in these threads for the benefit of the few anime-only fans that may decide to check out the thread, I don't think that any more than this is necessary.

Anyway, in the interest of full disclosure, I'm writing this post largely in response to recent moderator actions taken concerning the Haruhi Suzumiya forum's The Movie of the Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya thread. While these moderator actions are, of course, perfectly consistent with the Spoiler Policy itself, it does, for me, raise issues with the policy itself.

Simply put, I believe that this Disappearance thread would be best served as the catch-all thread for Novel 4 discussion, particularly since Novel 4 discussion is likely going to be very dominant on the Haurhi subform for the next few months, and precisely because a movie of it is coming out.


While I understand the admirable principles behind the Spoiler Policy of this site, I think that some... pragmatic alterations, perhaps... should be made to that policy to ensure that this forum is as strong and dynamic and conducive a place for healthy discussion as it can be (and that 'can be' has a lot of potential, frequently realized, to AS' credit).

I fear that having Novel 4 discussions spread out between a few different Haruhi subforum threads (each arguably being a decent place for such discussions) will lead to disjointed Novel 4 discussion that would best be served as discussion all on one thread. The best thread for that purpose is, in my view, the Movie of the Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya thread.


Anyway, that's just my take. Thanks for taking the time to read and consider it.
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Old 2009-10-14, 21:44   Link #2
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I think that I could make a pretty good case that this particular exception, were it approved, is not so far removed in principle from allowing people to discuss what is going to come in a full anime series before it airs. What makes a movie so special that it should be treated as a distinct case? After all, before an anime series airs, the people who will be most interested in the show and have the most to say are those who are already familiar with the source material. To say, "well it's a full series, so take your spoilers elsewhere" on the one hand, and also "well, it's a movie, so in this case spoilers are okay" seems... well, inconsistent. And I always prefer consistency unless there's simply no way around it.

In terms of the proposed exception, I don't really agree that these threads attract few or even fewer anime-only fans. It's simply that the anime-only fans do not have much to say at that point in time (other than "Are we there yet?"). They will, however, be interested in checking the thread regularly to see if any new news has been released about the movie -- for example, a release date, or a trailer, or any news from the staff. This is aside from spoilerific discussion of what will be contained within the movie, which many may prefer to keep a surprise. I think the idea of keeping the thread there for any legitimate production news and related discussion but without the end-game spoilers has some merit, and it is a bit more consistent with the traditional policy.

For this specific case, given the amount of folk familiar with the source material, I would prefer for us to consider a specific spoiler thread for the movie, where those familiar with the novels can speculate in particular about the movie and its contents. I say that although I'm still not entirely convinced that the existing threads aren't good enough. (Why is this so different from normal anime spoiler speculation that it needs to be kept distinct? Is it really better to keep it distinct? What if people want to speculate beyond the scope of the topic, as seems to often happen for this series?) But I would certainly prefer a new thread be created for this specific group of fans, then to make a broad exception that seems to open the door to a complete redefinition of what a "spoiler" is on these boards (which, frankly, would take some time to work through, and by then the movie might be over!).

Anyway, not sure if any other mods or admins will have their own thoughts or comments to add as well. Certainly all feedback is welcome.
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Old 2009-10-14, 22:55   Link #3
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I'd say that the "experienced viewer" threads (spoilerific) used to cover source-adaptation comparisons and other discussion are the best workaround for the whole problem.
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Old 2009-10-15, 12:20   Link #4
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I've mentioned before that threads made before the release (all these "speculations and expectations" threads) will be filled with either spoilers, "zomg i can't wait for this!!!" post, or random theories that make no sense and nobody really bothers to read because everyone has their own theories. Guess which of these would likely generate the most meaningful conversation, and which is not allowed. No real meaningful discussions can be had if people can't even discuss the plot under spoilers.

But this isn't the first complaint i made about the spoiler rules.
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Old 2009-10-15, 14:05   Link #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeedFreedom View Post
I've mentioned before that threads made before the release (all these "speculations and expectations" threads) will be filled with either spoilers, "zomg i can't wait for this!!!" post, or random theories that make no sense and nobody really bothers to read because everyone has their own theories. Guess which of these would likely generate the most meaningful conversation, and which is not allowed. No real meaningful discussions can be had if people can't even discuss the plot under spoilers.
Well, in that case, perhaps "speculations and expectations" is the wrong label. I personally think, in line with my comments before, that what people are looking for is more of a "News & Reaction" thread. A place they can check regularly to see if there's been official word about what to expect, screenshots, trailers, and so on. You're, of course, right that "speculation and expectations" from people who don't know the source material won't yield anything too substantive in terms of discussion, and for obvious reasons. But, for the benefit of the anime-only viewer, I don't think they should have to wade through mountains of spoilers to find the news tidbits they're looking for either.

And to be clear, it's not that the discussion isn't allowed, it simply isn't allowed in that particular thread (according to the policy we have now).

Also... I think that everyone admits that the Spoiler Policy isn't perfect, but that's because it attempts to be a compromise that covers a wide range of opinions about spoilers. There's just no way we can please everyone. So, in an attempt to have some sort of logic, we adopted the "on-topic" based system. For all the occasional kinks, it seems to generally serve the purpose. You have to remember that part of this was in response to the way spoiler tags used to be used before this current policy, where you might have pages upon pages of nothing but spoiler-tagged discussion, even if the source material had never been translated into English, and some felt that was inappropriate for a English community. (I remember being part of some of these long spoiler-filled discussions myself back when they were allowed.) So it's sort of like... no matter what you do, people will complain. It may be that the best you can hope for is a sort of happy medium where most can live with it, even if they don't think it's all that great.
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Old 2009-10-15, 16:57   Link #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeedFreedom View Post
I've mentioned before that threads made before the release (all these "speculations and expectations" threads) will be filled with either spoilers, "zomg i can't wait for this!!!" post, or random theories that make no sense and nobody really bothers to read because everyone has their own theories. Guess which of these would likely generate the most meaningful conversation, and which is not allowed. No real meaningful discussions can be had if people can't even discuss the plot under spoilers.
Good thinking. I strongly agree.

I don't have hard and fast poll data, of course, but the impression I get from Haruhi's fan community here on AS, at least, is that the vast majority are familiar with Novel 4 and would like to be able to talk about it in the Movie of The Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya thread.

If English translations of Novel 4 weren't available, I could understand strict refusals of novel discussions in the Movie thread, but given that they are translated into English...
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Old 2009-10-15, 19:46   Link #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
would like to be able to talk about it in the Movie of The Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya thread.
Why not talk about it in the novels thread? Novel readers are giving specific threads to discuss these things, and yet, they seem to also want the anime-specifc threads as well. How is that fair?

Quote:
If English translations of Novel 4 weren't available, I could understand strict refusals of novel discussions in the Movie thread, but given that they are translated into English...
Just because it's there doesn't mean some of us are interested in reading it. >_<
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Old 2009-10-15, 20:04   Link #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I don't have hard and fast poll data, of course, but the impression I get from Haruhi's fan community here on AS, at least, is that the vast majority are familiar with Novel 4 and would like to be able to talk about it in the Movie of The Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya thread.

If English translations of Novel 4 weren't available, I could understand strict refusals of novel discussions in the Movie thread, but given that they are translated into English...
Well, keep in mind that the novels are licensed, so even though translations are "out there", there are some restrictions to how much we can officially offer that as a justification for making policy exceptions (just like how we have restrictions on all forms of licensed anime, and so on).

Regarding numbers... I could be wrong, but I'm inclined to think that it's simply that the difference between the level of participation of the novel-reading crowd (hardcore fan?) and the anime-only crowd (maybe casual fan?) is so enormous. Many novel readers can write essays on the most minute of Haruhi-related topics, but those who have not studied the franchise in that much detail have much less to say. If the topics became even more spoiler-laden, you would amplify that dichotomy even further. But if you're trying to count "uniques", I don't think that novel-readers are by any stretch the majority, though they're certainly the most "vocal" (in many ways).
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Old 2009-10-15, 21:18   Link #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel E. View Post
Why not talk about it in the novels thread? Novel readers are giving specific threads to discuss these things, and yet, they seem to also want the anime-specifc threads as well. How is that fair?
Because its a reasonable prediction on the plot of the movie? Why would it make sense to talk about the movie in the novel thread? The movie is obviously not out. Anyone who is deathly afraid of spoilers shouldn't be in that thread as they are likely not to post anymore than "zomg i love haruhi so much!" anyways. Besides plot, what else is there to discuss in a movie thread without a movie? Using proper spoilers and labeling should keep it safe. People who are too intent on clicking any random spoiler, even if they are going to spaz about spoilers will likely be spoiled anyways for their habits, not the people trying to have an actual conversation.

If the board is going to be so strict on spoilers threads should NOT be made before it can be discussed meaningfully. As a side, any discussion on "News" about the movie would probably be a bigger spoiler than any guesses based on the novel. So i really dont see how that is going to help generate discussion AT ALL.

I trying my hardest not to hijack this thread, but what about animes without a subfourm? Why would anime watchers go into the novel thread, try to dig through just to get some guesses on future plots? What is the use of a spoiler tag if there is no legal use for it?
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Old 2009-10-15, 21:36   Link #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeedFreedom View Post

I trying my hardest not to hijack this thread, but what about animes without a subfourm? Why would anime watchers go into the novel thread, try to dig through just to get some guesses on future plots? What is the use of a spoiler tag if there is no legal use for it?
Speaking as the OP for this thread, I don't mind you bringing up tangental issues. I've said my piece on the
Haruhi-situation-in-particular anyway.

I see where Daniel E. is coming from... but at the same time, your point about spoiler tags in general resonates with me.

I guess, for me, I just don't see how having to wade through two or three pages of heavy spoiler-tagged discussion is any worse than, say, digging through the Haruhi or Nanoha images threads to try to find a certain image.

That will probably be my final word on this topic, though. I respect what the moderators choose to do given current policy, and feedback given here on this thread.
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Old 2009-10-15, 21:57   Link #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeedFreedom View Post
I trying my hardest not to hijack this thread, but what about animes without a subfourm? Why would anime watchers go into the novel thread, try to dig through just to get some guesses on future plots? What is the use of a spoiler tag if there is no legal use for it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoiler Policy
Exceptions:
Spoilers are permitted in limited circumstances, provided that they are posted under clearly marked spoiler tags. These exceptions include:
  • Posting and discussing content found on official sites or blogs.
  • Answering specific questions about past or current events using knowledge of the source material. (We strongly encourage posters to discuss any spoilers via PM, rather than in the work's discussion thread.)
  • Comparing events in an adaptation to the way they were presented in the source material or other adaptations. (Discussions about the source material itself, or extended comparisons should be directed to the appropriate manga/novel/game thread.)
  • Comparing one story to another, when such comparisons are useful or informative. (These spoiler tags must always be labeled with the name of the other work whose spoilers it contains.)
And also:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoiler Policy
Note regarding unsubbed "raw" anime episodes:
Because our forum is targeted primarily at fansub viewers, it is inconsiderate to openly discuss or post impressions of an episode before the fansubs are released, except in threads discussing that specific episode. So, when multiple raw and fansubbed episodes are being discussed in the same thread, please keep all discussion of unsubbed episodes behind clearly-marked spoiler tags. Discussing unsubbed anime is not a spoiler according to this policy, but please be considerate.
When writing these rules, the staff had long discussions about this issue of series that don't have sub-forums, and we realized that no matter what we came up with it would be less than ideal. But as I said before, one of the things that some were trying to move away from was the old reality where you could get pages-upon-pages of spoiler-tagged posts as people carried on spoiler-based conversations in anime threads. It was felt that conversations about source material don't belong in anime threads unless they were relevant to things already shown in the adaptation. Hence the wording we got.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeedFreedom View Post
If the board is going to be so strict on spoilers threads should NOT be made before it can be discussed meaningfully. As a side, any discussion on "News" about the movie would probably be a bigger spoiler than any guesses based on the novel. So i really dont see how that is going to help generate discussion AT ALL.
But there is a normalcy to the way this information is disseminated that people are used to. From the initial teaser, to the slow release of bits and pieces of information, to full cast-lists/interviews/trailers... this is normal, and what anyone would expect going into a movie. Of course, if people want to keep things an absolute surprise they should avoid the threads, but there's a certain realm of reasonableness based on common expectations. In-depth discussion about the content within is (considered at least by some to be) out of bounds.

--

Let me explain what the other issue is that is really at play here, and the reason why we had to have this compromise. People really suck horribly at labeling their spoilers. You may or may not recall that back in the day the rule used to be that spoilers were allowed as long as they were properly labeled. We even gave examples about how to label your spoiler tags to make sure they were specific and descriptive so that everyone knew what they were going into. But barely a day went by when we'd have some moron post something like this.

Spoiler for spoiler:
Much to the frustration of everyone. And then that idiot would say "but I used spoiler tags; if they didn't want to know, they shouldn't have clicked!"

The problem was that the level of spoilers within threads was far too varied. You had people using spoiler tags to post their impressions of raws that were just released (which some people were okay with reading), and other people using the very same spoiler tags to post top secrets about things nobody wants to be told about, all with very little care paid to differentiate between the two. So people would get lulled into a false sense of security and be clicking away at spoilers (that were of the mild variety), until all of a sudden one of the spoilers in a long thread of mild spoilers would be an improperly-labeled "extreme spoiler", possibly some guy replying to another post and trying to be "helpful" (and they thought that since it was a reply, their spoiler didn't need a label). This happened quite often.

So the decision was made to limit the type of spoilers that you could possibly find in an anime thread so that whatever spoilers are there are occasional and sporadic, and would never be too extreme. This way it's also much more clear-cut; no more arguments about whether something is or isn't "clearly labeled" -- it's either allowed, or it isn't. The topic-based system, with its limited exceptions, is at least understandable and provides some consistency that can be applied throughout the site. In general terms, from a moderator perspective, I would say that it's accomplished its purpose of reducing the overall amount of spoiler tags, and reducing the amount of "accidental spoilers" that people are subjected to.

So, all that being said, you need to keep in mind that the current policy wasn't adopted in some sort of vacuum. We all know that the word "spoiler" means "it spoils the content of the show!", and so that it logically follows (policy excepted) that clicking it may cause you to be spoiled. But what you're proposing as an ideal state is actually the same thing that we had before, and it was as a result of our experiences in that prior state that we arrived at this new policy (after a great deal of discussion among the staff). So even if you say that you basically want us to return to the way it used to be, we'd still have to find a different way to overcome all the problems that this new policy was designed to solve. Perhaps these last few years of experience have uncovered some new opportunities or possibilities in this area, but it's not as if these sorts of issues weren't considered in the first place.

I know that's probably way too much information, but if you really want to know why we have the policy we do, that's just another one of the reasons. From an outside perspective, I'm sure that many of the policies seem illogical and impractical at times, but chances are that, at the very least, it's the result of prior experience and change over time.

(And also... I want to say that although I was part of these discussions, what we landed on wasn't my first choice, or necessarily the first choice of any of the given staff. We had to work hard to find something that would meet all the objectives and still be agreeable to (and enforceable by) everyone. So it's not like all of this is necessarily my personal point of view, but having been through all the long conversations that got us to where we are, I at least remember the hurdles that we were trying to overcome.)
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Old 2009-10-15, 23:00   Link #12
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Originally Posted by SeedFreedom View Post
Because its a reasonable prediction on the plot of the movie? Why would it make sense to talk about the movie in the novel thread?
Bacause the movie is not out yet, and you want to talk about it's source and not the movie itself.

And a "reasonable prediction" is only so to novel readers. The novels are not some sort of universal and mandatory knowledge to all fans of the anime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeedFreedom View Post
Besides plot, what else is there to discuss in a movie thread without a movie?
You take things as they come.

-Initial reactions to the anouncement
-Discussion regarding the staff in charge of the movie (when/if it's announced)
-How popular the movie could be in Japan (in comparison with other animated films)
-Possibilities of the movie reaching theaters outside of Japan.
-Etc. etc.

For any comparison/discussion about how the movie will handle the plot of the books, you simply jump to the novel threads and voila!

If you ran out of things to discuss, you simply take a break from the thread and wait until more info is available.
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Old 2009-10-16, 08:23   Link #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
[mod edit: see post above, rather than quoting the whole thing]
Again, slightly off the OP topic, but i recently ran into a thread without a sub-fourm where a person asked a question about future events. The replyer had his post deleted. I missed the actual post, but if the spoiler is marked correctly than why is that a problem? If that person needs to be PMed with the answer, than everyone else looking for that answer will also PM him. Should that person have to now PM the same message 5 times just for being a nice guy and answering a question?

I fully remember that spoiler tags use to be absolutely horrendous, but that should only serve to make people use better tag titles, and ban those who don't. I'm not looking for a return to the old rules, just a set of rules that would allow conversations, but with adequate protection for the people who don't like spoilers. Fully out banning the discussion seems incredibly extreme to me, but i digress...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel E. View Post
Bacause the movie is not out yet, and you want to talk about it's source and not the movie itself.

And a "reasonable prediction" is only so to novel readers. The novels are not some sort of universal and mandatory knowledge to all fans of the anime.



You take things as they come.

-Initial reactions to the anouncement
-Discussion regarding the staff in charge of the movie (when/if it's announced)
-How popular the movie could be in Japan (in comparison with other animated films)
-Possibilities of the movie reaching theaters outside of Japan.
-Etc. etc.

For any comparison/discussion about how the movie will handle the plot of the books, you simply jump to the novel threads and voila!

If you ran out of things to discuss, you simply take a break from the thread and wait until more info is available.
Please do not take this as an attack on you... but again i ask, what MEANINGFULLY discussion can be had?

allow me to sum up general discussions on the topics you have listed
inital reaction = "zomg i love this so much"
staff = "zomg xxx staff rocks so much and i watch everything by them"
popularity = "zomg i love this so much and so does everyone else"
exporting = "Dubs plz"

Now you may say this is an unfair generalization of a few bad posters. But i have seen this on other sub-fourms. I'll admit discussion on the staff may be the closest thing to bring meaningfully discussion, but otherwise, initial reaction without plot is simply fandom, popularity is even more evident of this, and exporting... well i have not seen much discussion involving this but i would bet that it would be the same.

In some cases, books/novels are way ahead. the show might cover chapter 20, when the manga is at chapter 100. Either you would have to dig through tems or hundreds of pages to find your answer, or you would have to make a post every time someone had a question, and that gets annoying for manga readers.

Again, without meaningfully discussion, threads should not exist. if i can't discuss the plot and the thread is going to be filled with only fanboy antics, then you shouldn't make threads before its aired.
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Last edited by relentlessflame; 2009-10-16 at 09:59.
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Old 2009-10-16, 10:49   Link #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeedFreedom View Post
Again, slightly off the OP topic, but i recently ran into a thread without a sub-fourm where a person asked a question about future events. The replyer had his post deleted. I missed the actual post, but if the spoiler is marked correctly than why is that a problem? If that person needs to be PMed with the answer, than everyone else looking for that answer will also PM him. Should that person have to now PM the same message 5 times just for being a nice guy and answering a question?
Well, because the policy is based on specific guidelines of what content is or isn't allowed in a thread. The burden this places on people who want to find answers to spoiler-based questions is notwithstanding because people who want to ask questions about the source material should do so in the thread for the source material. That's just how it works.

The basic logic of the overall policy is rather straightforward: anything that's off-topic is not allowed, and anything that isn't discussing the specific medium of the thread is off-topic. We had to have a system, and this is what we have. So the answer to "why is it a problem?" is quite simple: it isn't allowed. And it isn't allowed because that's the basis of the policy. And the policy exists to reduce and restrict the use of spoiler tags in anime threads. So the fact that it succeeded in eliminating a use case for spoilers in an anime thread means that the policy accomplished one of its objectives (the other, and related, being to protect people from being unintentionally spoiled).

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeedFreedom View Post
I fully remember that spoiler tags use to be absolutely horrendous, but that should only serve to make people use better tag titles, and ban those who don't. I'm not looking for a return to the old rules, just a set of rules that would allow conversations, but with adequate protection for the people who don't like spoilers. Fully out banning the discussion seems incredibly extreme to me, but i digress...
Again, it wasn't just about protecting people who don't like spoilers, it was about reducing the actual amount of spoiler tags in general, because some did not want there to be threads that had long chains of spoiler-tagged conversations. The feeling was "take those spoilers elsewhere". If I were to do a poll of the staff right now and ask "Would you support allowing properly-tagged spoiler-based conversations inside anime series and movie threads?", I don't think you'd find enough support to see the policy changed. The general feeling, in line with what Daniel E. said, is that people who want to talk spoilers can just go to the source material thread. (To which you're basically saying, "but I don't want to go to the source material thread, because it belongs here." The sentiment is fine, but...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeedFreedom View Post
Again, without meaningfully discussion, threads should not exist. if i can't discuss the plot and the thread is going to be filled with only fanboy antics, then you shouldn't make threads before its aired.
It's not our responsibility as mods to make every thread meaningful and insightful. When a topic comes up that is of interest and that people want to talk about, we create a thread to capture that conversation. Beyond that, it's up to those posting to be insightful; if there's nothing useful to say that would permitted within the scope of the topic, don't post. If that means that a thread lays dormant for a few months while we wait for something interesting and relevant to say, so be it. It's not as if we're paying rent. In the meantime, if you think the thread won't produce any meaningful conversation, don't read it. People who want to discuss spoilers related to the content of the adaptation can do so in the relevant thread or, if the case warrants, a new thread can be created for that purpose. So I think that, no matter what, everyone can be accommodated if they, in turn, are accommodating. (You don't even want to know some of the weird and crazy ideas we came up with to try to address this issue in other ways...)

But that aside... Heck, if "meaningful and insightful" is the new measuring stick, there are a lot of threads on this site that deserve some re-considering...
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Old 2009-10-16, 11:11   Link #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Well, because the policy is based on specific guidelines of what content is or isn't allowed in a thread. The burden this places on people who want to find answers to spoiler-based questions is notwithstanding because people who want to ask questions about the source material should do so in the thread for the source material. That's just how it works.

The basic logic of the overall policy is rather straightforward: anything that's off-topic is not allowed, and anything that isn't discussing the specific medium of the thread is off-topic. We had to have a system, and this is what we have. So the answer to "why is it a problem?" is quite simple: it isn't allowed. And it isn't allowed because that's the basis of the policy. And the policy exists to reduce and restrict the use of spoiler tags in anime threads. So the fact that it succeeded in eliminating a use case for spoilers in an anime thread means that the policy accomplished one of its objectives (the other, and related, being to protect people from being unintentionally spoiled).

Again, it wasn't just about protecting people who don't like spoilers, it was about reducing the actual amount of spoiler tags in general, because some did not want there to be threads that had long chains of spoiler-tagged conversations. The feeling was "take those spoilers elsewhere". If I were to do a poll of the staff right now and ask "Would you support allowing properly-tagged spoiler-based conversations inside anime series and movie threads?", I don't think you'd find enough support to see the policy changed. The general feeling, in line with what Daniel E. said, is that people who want to talk spoilers can just go to the source material thread. (To which you're basically saying, "but I don't want to go to the source material thread, because it belongs here." The sentiment is fine, but...)

It's not our responsibility as mods to make every thread meaningful and insightful. When a topic comes up that is of interest and that people want to talk about, we create a thread to capture that conversation. Beyond that, it's up to those posting to be insightful; if there's nothing useful to say that would permitted within the scope of the topic, don't post. If that means that a thread lays dormant for a few months while we wait for something interesting and relevant to say, so be it. It's not as if we're paying rent. In the meantime, if you think the thread won't produce any meaningful conversation, don't read it. People who want to discuss spoilers related to the content of the adaptation can do so in the relevant thread or, if the case warrants, a new thread can be created for that purpose. So I think that, no matter what, everyone can be accommodated if they, in turn, are accommodating. (You don't even want to know some of the weird and crazy ideas we came up with to try to address this issue in other ways...)

But that aside... Heck, if "meaningful and insightful" is the new measuring stick, there are a lot of threads on this site that deserve some re-considering...
So this is basically a big "screw you" to people who would be interested in future events, being impossible to wade through tons of pages of materials to find out maybe 5 mins of material that could easily be covered by one or two spoilers. Well if you mods do insist on this there really is nothing that will change your mind as you seem to fully understand the types of discussion going on.

Also i thought that the entire point of "limited fourms" was to weed out threads with no discussion. Your last post makes that seem incredibility contradictory.

Again, AnimeSuki is a private entity and are free to set their own rules, i just find the spoiler rules incredibility unfair, restricting, and contradictory.
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Old 2009-10-16, 12:10   Link #16
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Originally Posted by SeedFreedom View Post
So this is basically a big "screw you" to people who would be interested in future events, being impossible to wade through tons of pages of materials to find out maybe 5 mins of material that could easily be covered by one or two spoilers.
Well, you know, anyone can pick a test case to prove that as broad a policy as this has some less-desirable consequences in certain situations. I personally don't think that this scenario is so common or troubling that it warrants a complete change to the current process, and that implementing the proposed change would have other consequences that would be contrary to the reason the current policy was implemented in the first place. (And incidentally, in Q&A threads, we do allow spoiler questions and spoiler answers, so long as they're clearly marked. Again, we've accepted that no perfect solution could be found for series that don't have sub-forums.)

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Also i thought that the entire point of "limited fourms" was to weed out threads with no discussion. Your last post makes that seem incredibility contradictory.
No, the point of limited forums was to control the sort of topics that were created. And whether you personally think the discussion is interesting or not, people do want to talk about the new Haruhi movie that was announced. It's a relevant topic for that sub-forum. And if there's enough demand, we can even create a "spoiler thread" for the movie; I mentioned that earlier. All this can be done within the constraints of the current policy.

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Again, AnimeSuki is a private entity and are free to set their own rules, i just find the spoiler rules incredibility unfair, restricting, and contradictory.
*shrug* There's no pleasing everyone. Like I said, this implementation wasn't my first choice, and I'd be perfectly willing to propose a change if it were logical. But I wouldn't even bring it to the rest of the staff's attention if it doesn't first address the problems that the current policy was trying to solve. Otherwise, it'd just be shot down. So this is why, if you really want to see things changed, you have to understand how we got here first and make a solution that builds on what we have. In a way it's playing politics, but that's always the way it is when you want to bring about change in any sort of group or organization.

I can at least say that the current policy, as written, does have a logic that can be followed and applied consistently throughout the forum. At least that's something.
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Old 2009-10-16, 14:15   Link #17
Daniel E.
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Please do not take this as an attack on you... but again i ask, what MEANINGFULLY discussion can be had?
A discussion can be as meaningful and serious as the fans want it out to be. Such as people discussing how a live action adaptation of said movie would work, such as how people talked for weeks about the K-ONification of Endless Eight and how that could also affect the upcoming movie.

If you think only novel discussions can be meaningful, then that's the only thing that will ever be meaningful to you.

It's all a matter of perspective in the end.
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Old 2009-11-11, 13:04   Link #18
DragoZERO
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Something should be done about talking about source material in the adapation thread. Many times people start talking about the source material and says they aren't spoiling anything. Sorry but, telling me that new Character C makes Character A act different to Character B is a spoiler. It is hard to gauge and some source material discussion is to be expected, like comparisons or what was left out, BUT some people don't' care. They should use spoiler tags and they may be more inclined (or simply forced to) if the rules were changed to include something like that.

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Again, AnimeSuki is a private entity and are free to set their own rules, i just find the spoiler rules incredibility unfair, restricting, and contradictory.
I think the spoiler policy is a little too lenient in some cases. I hate spoilers like they are the plague, they ruin everything.

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It's all a matter of perspective in the end.
Exactly. SeedFreedom thinks its too strict, and I think its not strict enough. I've gotten into some small squabbles over spoilers and even had my reputation attacked because of it.


I do have one question, if I see a spoiler should I just report the post?
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Old 2009-11-11, 13:25   Link #19
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I do have one question, if I see a spoiler should I just report the post?
Definitely.

The Report feature can be used for informing us of such instances. Please bear in mind that we (the Mods) are not familiar with the source material of all the series out there so we may not be able to respond in a timely manner in every case.
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Old 2009-11-11, 15:46   Link #20
SeedFreedom
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But i've seen some people complaining over a post basically saying "Stuff happens". That can't really be a spoiler. Of course stuff happens. Stuff always happens. Unless the show ends stuff will happen. Its got to be expected. For instance, a person said "Omg this character will get some development soon. Things are going to get interesting" is that a spoiler? I think at some point, especially if nothing is revealed people need to chill. Accidentally seeing "stuff happens" isn't the end of the world.

Directly adressing DragonZero's point, sure, maybe you can see a person saying "person A is going to change person B and C" a spoiler, but if nothing is exactly revealed, how is that a spoiler? For all you know, they get closer, drift apart, or even one kills another. Your excitement for the show should change because of that. If things become that restrictive people cant even say "stuff happens" then source readers will just be turned off by this board. I'm seriously having a lot of a harder time enjoying anime suki when everyone has to now say "Pm me for details, i cant tell you details of what cuse its a spoiler, but some kind of detail on the show".
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