AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Haruhi Suzumiya

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2009-10-13, 16:15   Link #3001
Sparvid
*hic*
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: A Swede in Tokyo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Even when Haruhi's not really in the story, she is a plot point.
Disapperance = Where is Haruhi?
Intrigues = How do we evade Haruhi?
"Whenever Haruhi's not onscreen, all the other characters should be asking 'Where's Haruhi'?"
Sparvid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-13, 20:15   Link #3002
Triple_R
Center Attraction
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Quote:
Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
The CCP is awesome, simply because he's so hapless. Maybe you just don't get him. ^_^
As a general rule of thumb, I don't like totally hapless characters... not unless they're the "lovable loser" type. I don't find the CCP particularly lovable, so...

But, to each their own.


Quote:
Agreed, but not quite what we were talking about. As I've stated multiple times, there is no getting away from Haruhi's influence on the plot. What we were talking about is getting away from her physical presence in the plot, which is most thoroughly done in Volumes 4 and 7, but often occurs any time something needs to happen without her knowledge. In that sense, only Kyon's presence (as the audience POV and narrator) is truly indispensable, to the point where when something does occur without his involvement (certain parts of Someday in the Rain, Yuki and Itsuki's initial "curing" of the Mikuru Beam), it's jarring.
I see what you mean here. Kyon's physical presence is indispensable, yes, whereas Haruhi can be off-screen a fair bit and it doesn't hurt the story much, if at all. Kyon, as the narrator, more or less needs to be in just about every scene for just that reason.


Quote:
You misunderstand me. Maybe I should have italicized the "must" in "x character must be involved..." to better accentuate my point. I'm not talking about preferring certain characters and wanting to see them portrayed. I'm talking about those who would dismiss an entire story or novel because they don't think there's enough of "x character" in it.
Yeah... that's going too far, I agree. I obviously like Haruhi a lot, but I still like Novel 4 a lot, even though her presence is relatively low there. Yuki and Kyon are strong enough to carry entire chapters by themselves, and also to be the principle focus of a novel. I have no disagreement there.


Quote:
I don't think we get nearly enough Tsuruya-san for example, and would love to see more of her (knowing that is a bit self-centered, considering any time spent focusing on her is time that can't be spent focusing on someone else's favorite character), but I'm content to let Tanigawa make that decision, and I'm certainly not going to brand a good story as deficient simply because there's not enough green-haired senpai in it.
I'd welcome more Tsuruya-san too, partly to shift the focus a bit broader than the Core Five. Mind you, that's partly E8 residue, where the Core Five (and Kyon's sister with that one memorable line ) is pretty much all we saw for most of the year.

And Tsuruya is a very cool character. Laws of Tsuruya is absolutely adorable and hilarious!


Quote:
Similarly I have a problem with overpromotion of a character, even if they're supposedly the centerpiece of the series, because all characters eventually wear thin with people, and overpromotion exacerbates that. All the characters are important to the story, and undue focus on any one character causes problems, especially if the creator starts reading his own press and changing plot decisions based upon it.
Ok, I see your take on Haruhi as a character a bit better now. It's probably fair to say that she, as a character, was a bit overpromoted back in 2006 and 2007.
__________________
Triple_R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-13, 20:17   Link #3003
Kogetsu Shirogane
Giant Doughnuts for All!
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Otonokizaka
Age: 29
Send a message via AIM to Kogetsu Shirogane
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparvid View Post
"Whenever Haruhi's not onscreen, all the other characters should be asking 'Where's Haruhi'?"
Well... if Disappearance is any proof, Kyon is like that.
__________________
Ryuko Matoi, Kill la Kill
WARNING: Kogetsu Shirogane cannot be held accountable for any actions taken by someone else. Potential side effects of communicating with this user include headaches, mild confusion, insanity, delirium, and jumping into fires. Do not expose this user to sunlight or water or feed this user after midnight.
... that's... not a doughnut...
Kogetsu Shirogane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-15, 00:06   Link #3004
Ricky Controversy
Frandle & Nightbag
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
So, this came out some time ago, but when I was a teenager there was a particular humorous shirt that was pretty popular, called the 'Religions of the World' shirt. It had two columns; one listing a religion on the wearer's right, and one listing its 'definition' on the wearer's left. Only, ever 'definition' included something about 'Shit Happening'. So, for example, "Taoism: Shit Happens", "Hinduism: This Shit Happened Before", "Unitarianism: What Is This Shit?" etc. I've figured one out that's appropriate here.

Haruhiism: Shit happens all Over the place because of Suzumiya Haruhi's Brigade.
__________________
Ricky Controversy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-15, 00:19   Link #3005
Joe4evr
(Ex-)Seitenkan VN coder
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Slightly south-west of the exact center of this country's X and Y axes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy View Post
So, this came out some time ago, but when I was a teenager there was a particular humorous shirt that was pretty popular, called the 'Religions of the World' shirt. It had two columns; one listing a religion on the wearer's right, and one listing its 'definition' on the wearer's left. Only, ever 'definition' included something about 'Shit Happening'. So, for example, "Taoism: Shit Happens", "Hinduism: This Shit Happened Before", "Unitarianism: What Is This Shit?" etc. I've figured one out that's appropriate here.

Haruhiism: Shit happens all Over the place because of Suzumiya Haruhi's Brigade.
A friend of mine has that same shirt. Nice one for Haruhiism, by the way.
__________________

↑Click for MAL.↑
Joe4evr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-15, 02:12   Link #3006
Otaku Emperor
Love Conquers All!
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: The Suzumiya Haruhi Section of AnimeSuki, (I placed my main Otaku HQ box there)
Age: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparvid View Post
"Whenever Haruhi's not onscreen, all the other characters should be asking 'Where's Haruhi'?"
Yep.

And they go looking for her, and they are then like "There she is"

6 mins Later: Haruhi makes them carry heaters "Remind me why we went looking for her again?"
Otaku Emperor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-15, 03:16   Link #3007
Kogetsu Shirogane
Giant Doughnuts for All!
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Otonokizaka
Age: 29
Send a message via AIM to Kogetsu Shirogane
I think you may have missed the joke.
__________________
Ryuko Matoi, Kill la Kill
WARNING: Kogetsu Shirogane cannot be held accountable for any actions taken by someone else. Potential side effects of communicating with this user include headaches, mild confusion, insanity, delirium, and jumping into fires. Do not expose this user to sunlight or water or feed this user after midnight.
... that's... not a doughnut...
Kogetsu Shirogane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-15, 03:22   Link #3008
Otaku Emperor
Love Conquers All!
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: The Suzumiya Haruhi Section of AnimeSuki, (I placed my main Otaku HQ box there)
Age: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
I think you may have missed the joke.
^ _ ^ Probably.

(I just did a Tsukasa Moment)
Otaku Emperor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-23, 20:29   Link #3009
bhl88
Otaku Apprentice
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Unseen Horizon
Send a message via MSN to bhl88 Send a message via Yahoo to bhl88
Maybe it's:

Melancholy = Who's Haruhi
Sighs = Is Haruhi evil?
Boredom = How to stop Haruhi from getting bored?
Disapperance = Where's Haruhi?
Rashness = What's going on with Haruhi?
Disturbance = Is Haruhi a disturbance?
Scheme = Is this s*** happening because of Haruhi?
Anger = Is Haruhi getting bored to wish for a villain?
Dissociation = Will Haruhi get more friends?
Surprise = Will Haruhi know who John Smith is?

something like that
__________________

Dang it Avalon, you c(XD LOL)-block Shirou and Reinforce, but don't protect his mind in other ways? What is wrong, you woman?
Friendship, be made! Magical power, gather! Starlight Breaker.... this world!
bhl88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-23, 20:35   Link #3010
AmyElizzabeth
Moo
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Iowa
Age: 18
Send a message via MSN to AmyElizzabeth
I want Surprise Novel, right now.
I've waited too long. And the fans who've waited longer have also waited too long.
And I'm not so sure why there's all the questions..
AmyElizzabeth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-23, 20:40   Link #3011
bhl88
Otaku Apprentice
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Unseen Horizon
Send a message via MSN to bhl88 Send a message via Yahoo to bhl88
lol of course every Haruhiist would like it...

Even I would like that light novel to come in faster...

But meanwhile I would like to preserve those books (I could give those to someone XD)
__________________

Dang it Avalon, you c(XD LOL)-block Shirou and Reinforce, but don't protect his mind in other ways? What is wrong, you woman?
Friendship, be made! Magical power, gather! Starlight Breaker.... this world!
bhl88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-02-24, 22:43   Link #3012
netvope
SOS-Dan
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhl88 View Post
Surprise = Will Haruhi know who John Smith is?
holy...

I want it right now too!!
netvope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-13, 13:46   Link #3013
Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4 View Post
I think my biggest problem with the Sigh arc is that nothing really HAPPENS. We see the couple of weird things in Episode 00 get resolved (Yuki tackling Mikuru, Shamisen talking, etc.), but besides that, the most emotion I can muster is, "Eh...so what?" Episode 00 already conveyed "a bunch of clueless high schoolers make a movie and suck at it," and it just seems redundant to show the actual sucking.
The entire point of Sigh was about Kyon putting his foot down.
That's all. It was about Kyon deciding he will take the responsibility of being Haruhi's moral compass, the one who will stand up to her even while those with superpowers and immense technology tremble in fear.

And this was important, because that's what made Haruhi tolerable from Live A Live onwards. And that was also when the other 3 members start to defer to Kyon when they needed him to hold Haruhi in check. This was in comparison to the original story, when Kyon really did nothing to oppose her.
__________________
Vallen Chaos Valiant is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-16, 00:07   Link #3014
Triple_R
Center Attraction
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
The entire point of Sigh was about Kyon putting his foot down.
That's all. It was about Kyon deciding he will take the responsibility of being Haruhi's moral compass, the one who will stand up to her even while those with superpowers and immense technology tremble in fear.

And this was important, because that's what made Haruhi tolerable from Live A Live onwards. And that was also when the other 3 members start to defer to Kyon when they needed him to hold Haruhi in check. This was in comparison to the original story, when Kyon really did nothing to oppose her.
I more or less agree.

Sigh is basically about Haruhi getting truly out of control in how she was treating everybody around her, especially Mikuru. Sigh certainly displays Haruhi at her worst, imo.

Kyon had to stand up to her here, because nobody else would. It's from Sigh on that Haruhi more or less forces herself to be a better person, knowing that if she didn't do this, her relationship with Kyon (and the rest of the SOS Brigade) was in jeopardy.
__________________
Triple_R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-16, 11:06   Link #3015
Gamer_2k4
Anime Cynic
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: USA
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Sigh is basically about Haruhi getting truly out of control in how she was treating everybody around her, especially Mikuru. Sigh certainly displays Haruhi at her worst, imo.
So it's a contrived situation that forces the characters to act in a way that they otherwise wouldn't in order to wedge in character development with a sledgehammer. Fantastic.

Think about it. The kind of person who says outright (and believes it), "Mikuru is my TOY," isn't going to change, especially not instantly, because one person happens to disapprove. The kind of person who would get someone drunk on tequila, throw them into polluted water, make them wear immodest outfits, and everything else that Mikuru CLEARLY doesn't want to do is not going to have a drastic behavioral overhaul because a second person doesn't want it to happen either.

Remember what Haruhi said to Kyon? It was something like, "What is your problem? This is my movie and I'll do what I want!" She thinks his objections are nonsense, and the fact that he wanted to hit her only made her more indignant. Remember, Haruhi was just smacking Mikuru (hard) seconds earlier. If Kyon's attempted attack upset her at ALL, it proves that she doesn't have any self-awareness or empathy, at least not the kind that would force such a turnaround in her behavior.

And how does Kyon resolve things? "uhh we're going to make this movie a success." So he's caving into Haruhi's desires. Someone with any intelligence at all (and it's understood that Haruhi has a significant amount) would immediately realize, "Hey! Even if he gets angry at me, he's still going to do exactly what I want!" You know why she's upset? Someone finally opposed her. You know what made her cheer up? That person stopped opposing her. Kyon's essentially apologizing for getting angry, and what's worse, he legitimately feels that way too. ("I don't know why I was so out of control, but I drank some milk and calmed down. It was probably just a calcium deficiency.") I think I remember yelling at my monitor, "No! You had every right to get mad! Don't be an idiot!"

When I said, "Sigh was boring and nothing happened," I was being generous. Perhaps, "Nothing happened that made sense," would be a more valid appraisal of the situation. This just brings us back to point 7 in my review at the top of the page, that Tanigawa is overrated. When you force development onto characters rather than letting them develop realistically, they're exposed for the plot tools that they are. That's not good writing.
__________________
Gamer_2k4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-16, 13:03   Link #3016
Grahf616
High Saint of Asakuraism
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: The Great White North
I have to disagree on a lot of those points, although hopefully the reasons why are at least somewhat legitimate.

As far as character development is concerned, we do have to remember that this is only the second novel in the series. In the first we saw a Haruhi who, while happy enough, was also in a state of Melancholy, thus the title. So I don't think that the situation is going into the boarders of being contrived. Haruhi was probably written to have a personality that would cause her to do this, and we just haven't had a chance to see her do so until this point. It's true that after this she does still have some of this behaviour (I'm specifically thinking of the baseball game) she does begin to tone it down and become less of a raging sociopath over time.

You say that Haruhi isn't going to change instantly just because one person objects to what she's doing. I believe that she doesn't undergo an instant change, for example she's still more than willing to force Mikuru to play dressup, but after peeving Kyon off so badly, it became clear to her that there are limits to what can be tolerated. Also, Kyon isn't just any random person to her, even at this early stage in the narrative. At this point, it might not be horribly far off to say that he's the only person whose opinions might matter to her at all.

As far as her reaction to getting hit goes, I think that the anime portrayed it a lot better than the novels did, honestly. In the novels she comes across as an indignant brat about it, while in the anime, with exactly the same lines, you can still see that her reaction is almost one of "Why would you, of all people, be the one to do this to me?" she almost looks like she's going to cry. Whether or not she recognizes the fact that her treating other people like garbage is what spurred him to attempt it is a little besides the point, all she needs to take away from it is the jarring sense of "How far did I push him for him to be willing to do that?"

The resolution is the part I can actually mostly agree with you on. Kyon's reasoning that he needs to apologize to her because he's disagreed with what she's done is rather contrived when those disagreements were completely legitimate for the most part. Sure, he's been snarking about stuff in general, and perhaps feels a little guilty about that, but he shouldn't feel bad for taking a hard line on what is and is not acceptable. I think the apology scene, or rather the brief opening to it where Haruhi was making a ponytail just when he walked in, had more potential because it showed that Haruhi was trying, even if it was a physical attempt, to maybe work herself up to an apology. I think a mutual apology would have been so much better in the long run, with Haruhi being the one to initiate it. But sadly that's not the way it went.

I hope that even if you don't find these points to be things that you can agree with that they at least made a modicum of sense. I'm not trying to change your interpretation of events, I'm rather just offering mine as a differing viewpoint.
__________________
Grahf616 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-16, 14:35   Link #3017
Ashaman
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Age: 24
Two things; one, the baseball game chronologically happens before Sighs. Two, Kyon never actually apologised.

He just said, 'Let's make this movie a success.'

Its not an apology, but it is sort of like saying - 'Lets get on with this.' Kind of a declaration of support.

It takes nothing away from his putting his foot down though. It was then that Haruhi learned that there are limits.

To me, that scene was a turning point. After that, Haruhi began to care more about people, and stopped simply using them.

I think it shocked her into realising that, if she carried on like she was, Kyon would leave her. True, by this point she cares somewhat for the rest of the Brigade, but Kyon's opinion mattered more.
__________________
Ashaman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-16, 15:05   Link #3018
Grahf616
High Saint of Asakuraism
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: The Great White North
Whoops, that's my bad. I'm still bad with the timeline.
__________________
Grahf616 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-16, 22:38   Link #3019
Gamer_2k4
Anime Cynic
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: USA
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grahf616 View Post
You say that Haruhi isn't going to change instantly just because one person objects to what she's doing. I believe that she doesn't undergo an instant change, for example she's still more than willing to force Mikuru to play dressup, but after peeving Kyon off so badly, it became clear to her that there are limits to what can be tolerated. Also, Kyon isn't just any random person to her, even at this early stage in the narrative. At this point, it might not be horribly far off to say that he's the only person whose opinions might matter to her at all.
Well, it is essentially an instant transformation, because Haruhi's huge out-of-character moment, the only time that I can think of that she ever showed empathy for anyone outside of the SOS Brigade, was at the festival that occurred a day or two after filming concluded. That's horribly abrupt.

Incidentally, the only time Mikuru actually has a problem with the cosplaying is when she has to wear the skimpy outfits. Her only gripe with the maid costume was that Haruhi wouldn't let her take off her own clothes, she had no (on-screen) issues with the frog or the nurse outfits, and of course she dressed up for the soba cafe without a problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grahf616 View Post
As far as her reaction to getting hit goes, I think that the anime portrayed it a lot better than the novels did, honestly. In the novels she comes across as an indignant brat about it, while in the anime, with exactly the same lines, you can still see that her reaction is almost one of "Why would you, of all people, be the one to do this to me?" she almost looks like she's going to cry. Whether or not she recognizes the fact that her treating other people like garbage is what spurred him to attempt it is a little besides the point, all she needs to take away from it is the jarring sense of "How far did I push him for him to be willing to do that?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashaman View Post
It takes nothing away from his putting his foot down though. It was then that Haruhi learned that there are limits.
If you don't know what you did wrong, then being yelled at won't change a thing. You might be upset (and Haruhi was indeed moody afterwards), but of course that'll all go away once the person who yelled at you says, "It's okay."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashaman View Post
Kyon never actually apologised.

He just said, 'Let's make this movie a success.'

Its not an apology, but it is sort of like saying - 'Lets get on with this.' Kind of a declaration of support.
Yes - a declaration of support shortly after withdrawing his support. In other words, he essentially retracted his objections. If a kid is told he has to stay in detention and then at the end of the day the teacher tells him he can go home right away, he'll have learned nothing. Here too, if someone gets furious at you and then returns a lot calmer saying, "Okay, go back to what you were doing," you're not going to learn anything either. At best, you'll think the person had a lapse of judgment that they've gotten over. If you had any uncertainty about your actions, that will be completely dispelled.
__________________
Gamer_2k4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-16, 23:43   Link #3020
Grahf616
High Saint of Asakuraism
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: The Great White North
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4 View Post
Well, it is essentially an instant transformation, because Haruhi's huge out-of-character moment, the only time that I can think of that she ever showed empathy for anyone outside of the SOS Brigade, was at the festival that occurred a day or two after filming concluded. That's horribly abrupt.

Incidentally, the only time Mikuru actually has a problem with the cosplaying is when she has to wear the skimpy outfits. Her only gripe with the maid costume was that Haruhi wouldn't let her take off her own clothes, she had no (on-screen) issues with the frog or the nurse outfits, and of course she dressed up for the soba cafe without a problem.
Admittedly, that might not have even been empathy so much as it was her making a spur of the moment decision to get involved in a situation. It is a little convoluted, but I think that's more of a timeline order fault than anything else.

Also, forcing Mikuru to play dressup was a bad choice of words on my part. The root of the problem was Haruhi continually treating people like objects, means to an end without any regard of how they feel about it one way or another. Now, whether she continues to do this after the fact (and she does at least a bit) does open debate over whether she learned anything, but she never went to such extremes again.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4 View Post
If you don't know what you did wrong, then being yelled at won't change a thing. You might be upset (and Haruhi was indeed moody afterwards), but of course that'll all go away once the person who yelled at you says, "It's okay."
I think here you might be giving Haruhi too little credit. She is quite empathetic, it's just that for the most part, she chooses not to be. And if I was arguing with someone and they went to hit me directly after something I just said, I'd probably attribute their anger to that statement, or at least the general focus of that current situation. Haruhi would have to be pretty wilfully ignorant not to see that Kyon had a huge problem with her treatment of Mikuru and her statement of ownership.

I haven't really quoted the last part, because as I mentioned earlier, I agree with you that the apology came off as completely one sided and contrived, and I think that it wouldn't have been much of a stretch if, as you say, Haruhi basically learned nothing from that incident other than that Kyon will cave given enough time. Now, she obviously did take something away from it, because she did tone down her behaviour and become more empathetic over the course of the next novels, but it could have just as easily gone the other way.
__________________
Grahf616 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
comedy, kadokawa, kyoto animation, school life, science fiction, shounen

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:59.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.