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View Poll Results: Is marriage a civil right?
Yes 237 77.20%
No 70 22.80%
Voters: 307. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-10-17, 15:40   Link #41
Tsuyoshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaseka View Post
I don't really see the appeal in marriages in any kinda form, but yes, everybody should have the right to marry their beloved ones, no matter what their sex may be. However, I don't see how one would even want to marry in a, let's say Christian Church, if their belief regards them as "sinful"? It's kinda meaningless to change such a seclusive group, even more to actually bother with it. But fear not, they will change it themselves..when people start leaving their Church and stop giving donations..

There are other problems like adoption and the possible disapproval of particular individuals that would oppose that with their meaningless arguments. Two women or two men can bring up a child just fine. Think of single parents, are they discriminated too? No, they are not. Two parents of the same sex can fuck up a child just as much as a hetero pairing would, no more or less.
Agreed. I'm even under the opinion that a gay couple may sometimes be more capable of raising a child right compared to an opposite sex couple because the child would grow to be more open to different points of view, considering how "abnormal" a lot of people still consider gay people to be. Other people who grew up in a traditional environment where it is advocated that man must be with a woman may not be able to accept the fact that there are people who just roll that way. Someone raised by a gay couple would be much more accepting and open to other points of view. But this doesn't apply to the general population of gay couples. I could be wrong half the time, but it's just a possibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Telmah View Post
You really think it is unrealistic?

I don't see why child custody couldn't be linked to the biological parents, with the child's desire added in like it already is. After all, they handle that for divorced couples, which are by definition not married.
Question: What if the biological parents are unable to maintain the child and prefer for the child to be a adopted by someone who is better able to cope with the responsibility of raising him/her?
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Old 2009-10-17, 15:43   Link #42
Narona
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Originally Posted by Ending View Post
Word. In Finland, there's civil marriage and church marriage. Civil marriage is basically the same thing, but anyone can get it. They just have to hold the celebrations in a place of their own instead of church.

Personally, I oppose gay marriages and hate it when they parade at the street, waving their rainbow flags.
In France, the only one that matters (recognized) in the eyes of the state and the laws is the Civil Marriage. You marry at the twon hall.

Here, the civil mariage is an institution.

Of course, if you are religious, after a civil marriage, you can do a church marriage, but nowadays this one has no legal value . So it's just "symbolic" when people do a church marriage after a civil marriage.

So one word, La´citÚ.

About the marriage between two person of the same sex, France still doesn't allow it, but created the PACS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacte_c...olidarit%C3%A9


Anyway, as for me, I have my own grip about the problem of adoption, but I don't feel like debating.







Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
To me, it's an eternal promise.

A promise (with regards to the conventional, biological sense) between a man and woman to each other and to God (or a higher being to spread the net to other religions) to love, care, treasure each other, support each other, through the good and bad (yes the vows mean more to me than just ramble always spouted on romcom Hollywood movies), to screw like bunnies and spout kids and raise them with love, good values and morals of which divorce is something that has serious consequences, not only on your family but also to your faith and your belief.
Nice Oh your description of a marriage is so cute.

Last edited by Narona; 2009-10-17 at 16:05.
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Old 2009-10-17, 16:07   Link #43
Zu Ra
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I think gay parents will give it more than 100% when it comes to raising kids for the sole reason they have lot to prove to themselves and society . Every person at some point wishes to have a family with kids . So being discriminated just for sexual orientation is wrong ..

Quote:
Other people who grew up in a traditional environment where it is advocated that man must be with a woman may not be able to accept the fact that there are people who just roll that way.
Traditional Environments are a fading minority these days . Most kids grow under a single mother and her changing partners That brings tonnes of problem in itself . If families were stable like biological parents being married till the kids become adults . IMHO that argument would hold good . Most people who argue about gay marriages destroying conventional marriage should remained married, then preach . When people go around destroying the sanctity of a conventional marriage by constant divorces . I seriously doubt they even understand basic concept of marriage to be pointing fingers .


When all is said and done ... its just a matter of queers being different than mainstream society . Its what people don't get is what they fear the most . Witch Burnings in the good ole days is a good example for that . As GayBashing is frowned upon now, so various outlets like these are used to vent hate and intolerance .




Just take gender equality, if the old thread is to believed ... Majority of Males on this forum are hardcore femnazis . But when there opinions are read in other threads . They are full of sexist undertones . Same is the case with homophobia in general =/

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Old 2009-10-17, 16:11   Link #44
MisterJB
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Basically, marriage is supossed to be all about two people who love each other and want to celebrate their love, rigth?

If so, then I don't see why homosexuals should not have the same rigth as heterosexuals.
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Old 2009-10-17, 16:12   Link #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zu Ra View Post
I think gay parents will give it more than 100% when it comes to raising kids for the sole reason they have lot to prove to themselves and society . Every person at some point wishes to have a family with kids . So being discriminated just for sexual orientation is wrong ..
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zu Ra View Post
Traditional Environments are a fading minority these days . Most kids grow under a single mother and her changing partners That brings tonnes of problem in itself . If families were stable like biological parents being married till the kids become adults . IMHO that argument would hold good .
By traditional, I meant a child raised by a man and woman, nothing more than that. True, this sort of scenario is diminishing, but there's still quite a majority of this, but I wouldn't put it above 50% of the world population, maybe not even 30%.
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Old 2009-10-17, 16:25   Link #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaseka View Post
Kids, especially in their early years are exactly what parents made them to be. If the parents are intolerable to such pairings, it will naturally rub on the kids too. They don't just naturally do that. If kids are bullies, one might ask what kinda environment and parental guidance they themselves have. It's no different than kids bullying other for their social status or appearance, every such problem must be faced with school social workers or worse.
Yes and No, kids are more effected by their peers than they are by their parents, especially in this day and age where parents typically only see their kids for a few hours a day.

If Boy A's best friend is a gay basher, chances are Boy A will gay bash along with him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterJB View Post
Basically, marriage is supossed to be all about two people who love each other and want to celebrate their love, rigth?

If so, then I don't see why homosexuals should not have the same rigth as heterosexuals.
Well they can "marry" like I say earlier, hold a private ceremony. Just can't get the legal documents to get more money, but they want that legal document so it becomes an issue.

Since the United States is a Christian gov't. It's why homosexuality is mostly unaccepted.
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Old 2009-10-17, 16:31   Link #47
Narona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterJB View Post
Basically, marriage is supossed to be all about two people who love each other and want to celebrate their love, rigth?
(here I don't talk about the same-sex marriage discussion.)

About "what a marriage is". In France, there are laws related to it, and effects (like that spouses owe it to each other to be faithful) related to it that you can't modify as you wish.
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Old 2009-10-17, 16:34   Link #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
If Boy A's best friend is a gay basher, chances are Boy A will gay bash along with him.
So the kid will have to toughen up at a young age . If bullying is hardcore as in brutal . Private schools / home schooling is the best option . You cant choose who your parents are that hold good here too .

Using that as an excuse to rally against same sex adoption seems quite comical though .
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Old 2009-10-17, 16:50   Link #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zu Ra View Post
So the kid will have to toughen up at a young age . If bullying is hardcore as in brutal . Private schools / home schooling is the best option . You cant choose who your parents are that hold good here too .

Using that as an excuse to rally against same sex adoption seems quite comical though .
Actually nowadays, kids CAN choose who their parents are. A kid can easily go to child protection services and make up some story and get removed. I would imagine it'll be especially easy if it was gay parents.
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Old 2009-10-17, 16:56   Link #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zu Ra View Post
So the kid will have to toughen up at a young age . If bullying is hardcore as in brutal . Private schools / home schooling is the best option .
Some families can't choose private schools/homeschooling because they simply can't afford it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
Actually nowadays, kids CAN choose who their parents are. A kid can easily go to child protection services and make up some story and get removed. I would imagine it'll be especially easy if it was gay parents.
Ugh, that's just terrible, but probably true nonetheless.
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Old 2009-10-17, 17:01   Link #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
Actually nowadays, kids CAN choose who their parents are. A kid can easily go to child protection services and make up some story and get removed. I would imagine it'll be especially easy if it was gay parents.
Yeah let the kids choose themselves . . If your suggesting the rate will be higher for children adopted by gay couples . Then such kids deserve to be smacked the hard reality of foster home to a loving caring family .

Though I really don't see this as an issue to advocate against same sex adoption

Quote:
Originally Posted by LusterFlare View Post
Some families can't choose private schools/homeschooling because they simply can't afford it.
When did home schooling ever been expensive ...

Here is an article on costs :

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_d...schooling_cost
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Old 2009-10-17, 17:14   Link #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterJB View Post
Basically, marriage is supossed to be all about two people who love each other and want to celebrate their love, rigth?

If so, then I don't see why homosexuals should not have the same rigth as heterosexuals.
I don't know what the laws say, but for now I can assume one of the most important concerns would be kids. If the marriage would be allowed, then they should obtain more rights for adopting a kid compared to the case of them being single. Of course the problem will mostly be about homosexual males compared to their female counterparts.

Even though, people might be scared here for no justifiable reason, it is not that easy to change their minds. There are many obstacles ahead, culture, religion, prejudice, etc. That is why a step by step approach is the better approach here. Because even a small problem that can easily be observed within a typical male-female family can intensify the fears of such people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zu Ra View Post
Yeah let the kids choose themselves . . If your suggesting the rate will be higher for children adopted by gay couples . Then such kids deserve to be smacked the hard reality of foster home to a loving caring family .
I saw that in the news a few times. It happened in Europe. When the kids learned that they will be adopted by homosexual parents, they refused the adoption. And, it wasn't solely the decision of the kids, meaning they were suggested that it wouldn't be good for them (for reasons you can imagine).
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Old 2009-10-17, 17:22   Link #53
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Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo View Post
Agreed. I'm even under the opinion that a gay couple may sometimes be more capable of raising a child right compared to an opposite sex couple because the child would grow to be more open to different points of view, considering how "abnormal" a lot of people still consider gay people to be. Other people who grew up in a traditional environment where it is advocated that man must be with a woman may not be able to accept the fact that there are people who just roll that way. Someone raised by a gay couple would be much more accepting and open to other points of view. But this doesn't apply to the general population of gay couples. I could be wrong half the time, but it's just a possibility.
Yes, that is also very true, for the current society at least. Once it gets normally accepted it won't really apply that much anymore. What is the main plus imho, is that same sex parters usually have a better mutual understanding of each other. I'm not saying all, I myself get rather better along with guy friends, but on a larger scale, I'd say that girls get along better with girls and guys with guys. At least as long as the man-woman separated mindset remains in mainstream society. So if that was really the case, there would be far less divorces, arguments and violence in such marriages that could potentially cause harm to these children.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
Yes and No, kids are more effected by their peers than they are by their parents, especially in this day and age where parents typically only see their kids for a few hours a day.

If Boy A's best friend is a gay basher, chances are Boy A will gay bash along with him.
So, where do these other peers get their opinions from? I know that children are easily affected by another, but it all starts by ones individual parental guidance. When you are kid, your parents are like the Gods to you. What you see is what you get at home. Also, did you just imply that absent parents don't carry the guilt of their children's deeds, just because they weren't there??? My opinion is that the whole society is based on how these kids are raised in their initial years..crime, wars, discrimination..everything starts with how parents raise their children..It's a really ironic magical circle..
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Old 2009-10-17, 17:31   Link #54
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Originally Posted by Zaseka View Post
Yes, that is also very true, for the current society at least. Once it gets normally accepted it won't really apply that much anymore. What is the main plus imho, is that same sex parters usually have a better mutual understanding of each other. I'm not saying all, I myself get rather better along with guy friends, but on a larger scale, I'd say that girls get along better with girls and guys with guys. At least as long as the man-woman separated mindset remains in mainstream society. So if that was really the case, there would be far less divorces, arguments and violence in such marriages that could potentially cause harm to these children.



So, where do these other peers get their opinions from? I know that children are easily affected by another, but it all starts by ones individual parental guidance. When you are kid, your parents are like the Gods to you. What you see is what you get at home. Also, did you just imply that absent parents don't carry the guilt of their children's deeds, just because they weren't there??? My opinion is that the whole society is based on how these kids are raised in their initial years..crime, wars, discrimination..everything starts with how parents raise their children..It's a really ironic magical circle..
Oh no, not at all. The fact that kids are raised by their peers and the media is completely the parents fault. Parents are held responsible of course. But kids will do what kids will do, despite any kind of upbringing. That is a known fact. Especially when they are teenagers.
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Old 2009-10-17, 17:34   Link #55
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Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
But kids will do what kids will do, despite any kind of upbringing. That is a known fact. Especially when they are teenagers.
Maybe a lot, but not all.

But I get your point about what you said above in your previous posts.
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Old 2009-10-17, 17:42   Link #56
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Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
Actually nowadays, kids CAN choose who their parents are. A kid can easily go to child protection services and make up some story and get removed. I would imagine it'll be especially easy if it was gay parents.
It can get even get more complicated than that sometimes.

Case in point, a mother is about to die and decides to leave her recently born daughter in the hands of her best friend...... a gay friend.

He raises the girl as best as he can, and from the photos you see and the comments of the neighbors, you can tell that he was doing a mighty good job as a parent. By the time the girl is 8-10 years old (can't remember the exact age), a "certain group of religious people" caught word of what he was doing and pulled all the strings at their disposal to separate the two.

Their only argument to set them apart was that he was gay, and that was pretty much the only excuse they needed. They will not allow him to even visit the girl and much less tell him where she is now.

All of this made it to the newspaper, btw.
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Old 2009-10-17, 17:47   Link #57
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Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
Oh no, not at all. The fact that kids are raised by their peers and the media is completely the parents fault. Parents are held responsible of course. But kids will do what kids will do, despite any kind of upbringing. That is a known fact. Especially when they are teenagers.
You still aren't getting my point. Who raised the reporters and who raised the people that appear in the media? Parents. It all starts with how parents raise their children, that then later affect other children in society and so on...You have to start at the foundation. That's why I said that it was a magical circle. So until ALL people accept same sex partners i.e. that the thought of it being wrong even exists,(which of course, will be never) things like this are bound to happen. Not only in this matter, in every other too. So the argument of fear for kids to bully such kids is a really really silly reason to prevent same sex adoptions. Actually, you don't have any argument other than GOD THINKS ITS WRONG. And then we can can continue to discuss this in the religion thread....
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Old 2009-10-17, 17:49   Link #58
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Excellent points raised there Zas ^-^



Closet Homophobia is a much bigger evil that straight.out Homophobia . The bane of political correctness if you can call it that .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaseka View Post
And then we can can continue to discuss this in the religion thread....
Offspring rightly said The Kids Aren't Allright .. turning into a straw-man argument otherwise ... Sadly we have strayed to far from the original point : (









EDIT :


Quote:
Originally Posted by LusterFlare View Post
I stand corrected. Though families in the lowest income quintile, like mine, are still unable to afford it .
There is a minimum income criteria for adoption . Something along 30 K the actual costs are already mentioned in that article . For various types of Home -Schooling from Horse Riding to Basic .
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Last edited by Zu Ra; 2009-10-17 at 18:00.
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Old 2009-10-17, 17:52   Link #59
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Originally Posted by Zu Ra View Post
When did home schooling ever been expensive ...

Here is an article on costs :

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_d...schooling_cost
I stand corrected. Though families in the lowest income quintile, like mine, are still unable to afford it.

I've also recently read that more and more kids are switching to public schools because of the economy. Though that's probably for another topic.

About the kids thing, I would like share something anecdotal. My high school French teacher is gay and he has four kids. However, he and his partner didn't adopt them; lesbian couples agreed to have kids using their sperm, though I think the kids mostly stay with lesbian couples.
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Originally Posted by Daniel E. View Post
It can get even get more complicated than that sometimes.

Case in point, a mother is about to die and decides to leave her recently born daughter in the hands of her best friend...... a gay friend.

He raises the girl as best as he can, and from the photos you see and the comments of the neighbors, you can tell that he was doing a mighty good job as a parent. By the time the girl is 8-10 years old (can't remember the exact age), a "certain group of religious people" caught word of what he was doing and pulled all the strings at their disposal to separate the two.

Their only argument to set them apart was that he was gay, and that was pretty much the only excuse they needed. They will not allow him to even visit the girl and much less tell him where she is now.

All of this made it to the newspaper, btw.
Just wow. That girl probably got thrown into the foster care system .
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Old 2009-10-17, 17:53   Link #60
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Originally Posted by Zaseka View Post
Actually, you don't have any argument other than GOD THINKS ITS WRONG. And then we can can continue to discuss this in the religion thread....
I pass on the value of the below arguments, but Religion is not always the only reason.

For example (i don't say it's good or bad, as i said, i don't want to enter this debate with my opinions, i just give an, example), in France, there are aethistic people who are against same-sex marriage/adoption because they think gays are crazy, or depraved, etc.

In those cases, religion is not related to it.
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