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View Poll Results: Is marriage a civil right?
Yes 237 77.20%
No 70 22.80%
Voters: 307. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-10-17, 18:02   Link #61
Irkalla
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Narona View Post
I pass on the value of the below arguments, but Religion is not always the only reason.

For example (i don't say it's good or bad, as i said, i don't want to enter this debate with my opinions, i just give an, example), in France, there are aethistic people who are against same-sex marriage/adoption because they think gays are crazy, or depraved, etc.

In those cases, religion is not related to it.
Blaming it on God is the only argument that could be debated within believers of why same sex marriages or adoptions could be wrong.(because God thinks its wrong) Otherwise they have no valid argument that wouldn't concern hetero couples as well. So what I'm basically saying is that, there is no valid argument against homosexuality or adoptions within such pairings.
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Old 2009-10-17, 19:30   Link #62
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Originally Posted by Zaseka View Post
You still aren't getting my point. Who raised the reporters and who raised the people that appear in the media? Parents. It all starts with how parents raise their children, that then later affect other children in society and so on...You have to start at the foundation. That's why I said that it was a magical circle. So until ALL people accept same sex partners i.e. that the thought of it being wrong even exists,(which of course, will be never) things like this are bound to happen. Not only in this matter, in every other too. So the argument of fear for kids to bully such kids is a really really silly reason to prevent same sex adoptions. Actually, you don't have any argument other than GOD THINKS ITS WRONG. And then we can can continue to discuss this in the religion thread....
What makes you think that I'm even religious? have you even read my post? If anything I believe christianity was born from those obsessed with greed and power, but I won't get into that.

Prejudices will always exist, tolerance will grow but you can never expect society as a whole to accept things that are different. And you can't force people to change either. Most kids who grow up will more than likely never see a real gay couple. The only time they'll see it is on T.V. at best. so seeing it in real life will pose as a shock.

I do believe bullying is an issue. It causes series life long trauma. But at the end of the day I could care less. I'm generally apathetic to those I don't know.
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Old 2009-10-17, 19:44   Link #63
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There's a serious disconnect between the thread title and the poll question ... to the point my "flame bait" flag has the safety off.

The conflation of civil marriage and religious marriage (in programmer-speak, "function overloading") has a lot to do with this issue (which often becomes a "stop thinking" hot button issue for homophobes who justify themselves with really shaky religious assertions).
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Old 2009-10-17, 19:47   Link #64
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Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
What makes you think that I'm even religious? have you even read my post?
A simple I am not religious would suffice =/

Quote:
Prejudices will always exist, tolerance will grow but you can never expect society as a whole to accept things that are different. And you can't force people to change either. Most kids who grow up will more than likely never see a real gay couple. The only time they'll see it is on T.V. at best. so seeing it in real life will pose as a shock.

Yes your original point was debatable i.e.


>> Adopted Children of Same Sex Couples suffer bullying

Now what are you debating about

>> Social Environments and there effects on Children's behavior ...


So what exactly has this to do with your original point ......... Or anything to do with Thread at hand ..
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Old 2009-10-17, 19:51   Link #65
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True, somewhere along the line adoption and children got involved, and I guess I just went a long with it. I believe I already made my stance within the first few posts though.
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Old 2009-10-17, 20:10   Link #66
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Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
What makes you think that I'm even religious? have you even read my post? If anything I believe christianity was born from those obsessed with greed and power, but I won't get into that.

Prejudices will always exist, tolerance will grow but you can never expect society as a whole to accept things that are different. And you can't force people to change either. Most kids who grow up will more than likely never see a real gay couple. The only time they'll see it is on T.V. at best. so seeing it in real life will pose as a shock.

I do believe bullying is an issue. It causes series life long trauma. But at the end of the day I could care less. I'm generally apathetic to those I don't know.
Nothing made me think that you are religious. English is a very inconvenient language when it comes to "you", make that "you can ever" . That said, at least we agree on one thing ^^

Of course there will always be prejudice, but can people make that hypothetical prejudice, that they themselves can change, a reason why gay people shouldn't be allowed to adopt kids? My point is, that there is absolutely no valid argument against gay couples who want to adopt a child, that society could use to prevent them that. Absolutely none..If anyone can name one argument, that wouldn't normally apply to hetero or single parents too, speak up now. I'm curious. I see what you are trying to say though, yes, indeed, most kids/families can never see a gay couple and thus don't feel the need to talk about it to their children. But do all boys and girls learn about Africa in school too, although most of them will never go there? That's why I mentioned how much important it is for parents and schools to educate children about all kinds of social matters, so the kids will know how to act to what you call "different".Foundations for life, so to speak, and homosexuality is just one of them.

@Zu_Ra
I believe I started the "Social Environments and their effects on Children's behavior". Because in essence its all connected. We we talking about how children from homosexual pairings would be bullied because of it. And I think we established that, the behavior of children is directly linked from their home environment and the environment of other homes. Basically, if parents accept homosexuality, it will brush onto their kids too, so no innocent children (at least not more than for other things kids usually bully for)can be bullied because of the nature of their parents. And this will happen..someday in the near future I hope.
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Old 2009-10-17, 20:30   Link #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo View Post
Question: What if the biological parents are unable to maintain the child and prefer for the child to be a adopted by someone who is better able to cope with the responsibility of raising him/her?
I don't think this would be handled any differently than it is already handeled. If the parents are dead or incapable of providing for/raising a child, then the child is often given to family who are capable or put in an orphanage.

Basically, my argument is to seperate the idea of marriage into a "religious marriage" and a "civil union". All government/business/legal etc things are tied to the civil union. All these entities stay out of the "religious marriage". Let each individual church decide (as they already do) who is worthy of marriage or not.
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Old 2009-10-17, 20:41   Link #68
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Originally Posted by Zaseka View Post
Basically, if parents accept homosexuality, it will brush onto their kids too, so no innocent children (at least not more than for other things kids usually bully for)can be bullied because of the nature of their parents. And this will happen..someday in the near future I hope.
I guess you can also say that, that will stop if the bullying, for any other reason, ever stops...Sometimes all you need is only a single kid to mess things for everyone.
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Old 2009-10-17, 21:29   Link #69
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Real simple breakdown;

Me, I am black agnostic. I respect religion and non believers but have a problem with fundamentalism of any stripe or even with utilizing religion as basis for discrimination.

There is no reason homosexuals shouldn't be protected by hate crimes laws and no reason why they can't have the same status and benefits that heterosexuals couples have in a legal sense. NO REASON. Provided that they are intelligent, responsible, law abiding citizens. This won't open up the flood gates to bestiality, legalized incest or what ever hoo hah people say.

Sorry I feel strongly on this, I am not gay, but being Afro-American, I have a problem with legitimizing discrimination just for the sake of keeping things status quo, religion was used to systematically demonize us once upon a time along with Jew and Catholic immigrants, why BECAUSE WE WERE DIFFERENT! (AAAUUGHHH, A PRESIDENT KENNEDY WILL BE A PAWN OF THE POPE!!!!)

ON THE OTHER HAND....

My conservative aunt's beef is not that they are gay, but along the lines of "they are inserting their own idea of marriage into a sacred practice, thus sullying it" or some sort. I can understand those sentiments. Seeing as how marriage is tied to religion so deeply, I think realistically Gays should worry about getting civil unions (purely SECULAR legality) first. Otherwise it seems primarily symbolic. My heart goes out to gay Christians but, religious definitions and mandates are best left to individual denominations and institutions.

With that, I say no to them being under the concept of "marriage" but yes to civil unions and discrimination protection.
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Old 2009-10-17, 23:27   Link #70
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Fine. Then the "gay marriage" law should be declared for female-female only. Legalising yuri but banning yaoi.

I hope you are all happy and content with this proposition to make the world a better place. I have confidence in this becoming a success because...

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Old 2009-10-17, 23:41   Link #71
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Ever since a young age, I've had this certain understanding and I guess I could say compassion for gay people. I definitely have compassion for gay people nowadays. I'm not gay, but I do have some gay relatives, and they have given me some great insight into this whole topic.

One thing I've learned is this (and have heard from my gay relatives and heard from people I know/knew that are gay)...they didn't choose their sexuality. Their attraction to the same sex just comes naturally, due to biological factors, just like how the average person is attracted to the opposite sex. I know many people here know about this and many people believe this, as well. It is just that understanding this has had a lot with how I feel about these people and how I support fairness and equality for them. They can't help but be attracted to the same sex, so they absolutely shouldn't be discriminated for something they can't control. I should mention, I mentioned biological factors, and scientific studies have concluded that gay people (on the whole), have biological factors that make them gay. Then of course there are the freaky deaky bi-curious people who want to experiment, but they are the exception. Most people wouldn't want to try out being gay for the heck of it. Most people wouldn't wanna just "try it out"; why would they choose to put up with the bullshit gay people go through (makes sense, no?).

I think that gay couples should be allowed to marry, especially with secular based marriages. Old world views are that marriage should only be between a man and a woman, but we know a lot more about homosexuality in this day and age, and as I said earlier, most gay and bi people don't choose their sexuality like how people don't choose their skin color or eye color. So we should discriminate against them for something they don't choose? Let's start being more fair to them, I say.
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Old 2009-10-18, 01:46   Link #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
Ever since a young age, I've had this certain understanding and I guess I could say compassion for gay people. I definitely have compassion for gay people nowadays. I'm not gay, but I do have some gay relatives, and they have given me some great insight into this whole topic.

One thing I've learned is this (and have heard from my gay relatives and heard from people I know/knew that are gay)...they didn't choose their sexuality. Their attraction to the same sex just comes naturally, due to biological factors, just like how the average person is attracted to the opposite sex. I know many people here know about this and many people believe this, as well. It is just that understanding this has had a lot with how I feel about these people and how I support fairness and equality for them. They can't help but be attracted to the same sex, so they absolutely shouldn't be discriminated for something they can't control. I should mention, I mentioned biological factors, and scientific studies have concluded that gay people (on the whole), have biological factors that make them gay. Then of course there are the freaky deaky bi-curious people who want to experiment, but they are the exception. Most people wouldn't want to try out being gay for the heck of it. Most people wouldn't wanna just "try it out"; why would they choose to put up with the bullshit gay people go through (makes sense, no?).

I think that gay couples should be allowed to marry, especially with secular based marriages. Old world views are that marriage should only be between a man and a woman, but we know a lot more about homosexuality in this day and age, and as I said earlier, most gay and bi people don't choose their sexuality like how people don't choose their skin color or eye color. So we should discriminate against them for something they don't choose? Let's start being more fair to them, I say.
I wouldn't completely dismiss the idea that some are born with the predisposition to becoming a homosexual but I most definitely believe that the environment of a growing child is more responsible for whatever orientation the child will develop. We really can't compare homosexuality with our physical features such as our eye color or our skin color. Homosexuality delves into a more deeper depth of a person's being than their superficial physical traits. But then again you only got insight from your gay relatives.

I strongly believe though that people such as homosexuals don't really have a choice to what orientation they develop. We really can't blame a homosexual if his/her same sex parent failed to be there for their child. The failure of establishing relationships with the same sex parent is also a known cause for a person to develop same sex attraction. We can't pin all the blame on the homosexual if he/she failed to attain same sex friends when they were young or if they identified more with peers of the opposite sex.

Someone with same sex attraction can't really choose who they're attracted to but they can choose if they want to indulge in a homosexual lifestyle(which is then considered the sin in my religion). I am one of those people who believe that homosexuals can change their gender preference but I also acknowledge that it may be impossible for some. There are just some instances in life where the scars are rooted too deeply. There are a few people I know who have spent hundreds or even thousands of dollars entering those therapy sessions that offer to help change your orientation but sadly, to no avail

My heart really goes out to homosexuals but even more to the homosexuals who are struggling to change. They had to undergo alot of struggles and conflicts directed at them because of being different. I am very much against discrimination against homosexuals but I am against the gay movement which is trying to attain equal rights such as marriage. It completely warps the definition of marriage in my opinion since two important factors that should always be present in marriage is a man and a woman. It is not a problem for me if homosexuals are to live together but I don't seen the need to enforce accomodation of gay marriage.
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Old 2009-10-18, 01:53   Link #73
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It's amazing how many people think marriage is a religious institution. In the United States people do get married in churches and temples but that does not mean marriage does not exist outside of religion.

Almost every culture in the world has the equivalent of marriage. Even cultures that are very different from each other will have remarkably similar definitions of marriage. This proves that marriage is a natural product of humanity.

In countries that aren't as religious as America people, even atheists, are still getting married, and governments are calling these unions marriage.

Marriage is a social institution, traditionally reserved for hetero couples (often of the same race), but should today be extended to homosexual couples.
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Old 2009-10-18, 01:57   Link #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaseka View Post
Nothing made me think that you are religious. English is a very inconvenient language when it comes to "you", make that "you can ever" . That said, at least we agree on one thing ^^

Of course there will always be prejudice, but can people make that hypothetical prejudice, that they themselves can change, a reason why gay people shouldn't be allowed to adopt kids? My point is, that there is absolutely no valid argument against gay couples who want to adopt a child, that society could use to prevent them that. Absolutely none..If anyone can name one argument, that wouldn't normally apply to hetero or single parents too, speak up now. I'm curious. I see what you are trying to say though, yes, indeed, most kids/families can never see a gay couple and thus don't feel the need to talk about it to their children. But do all boys and girls learn about Africa in school too, although most of them will never go there? That's why I mentioned how much important it is for parents and schools to educate children about all kinds of social matters, so the kids will know how to act to what you call "different".Foundations for life, so to speak, and homosexuality is just one of them.

@Zu_Ra
I believe I started the "Social Environments and their effects on Children's behavior". Because in essence its all connected. We we talking about how children from homosexual pairings would be bullied because of it. And I think we established that, the behavior of children is directly linked from their home environment and the environment of other homes. Basically, if parents accept homosexuality, it will brush onto their kids too, so no innocent children (at least not more than for other things kids usually bully for)can be bullied because of the nature of their parents. And this will happen..someday in the near future I hope.
People can come up with arguments against gay couples adopting children, but not without giving the impression of being heavily discriminant toward gay people, or lesbian. They wouldn't be able to come with a legitimate reason for not allowing gay couples in general to adopt any children. You're right about another thing. Parents will hardly ever talk to their kids about gay people unless they actually see one, which is relatively seldom to begin with. Because there's no need, there's no prejudice being passed down.
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Old 2009-10-18, 01:58   Link #75
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I wouldn't completely dismiss the idea that some are born with the predisposition to becoming a homosexual but I most definitely believe that the environment of a growing child is more responsible for whatever orientation the child will develop. We really can't compare homosexuality with our physical features such as our eye color or our skin color. Homosexuality delves into a more deeper depth of a person's being than their superficial physical traits. But then again you only got insight from your gay relatives.
Considering what we know of behavioral science, that's outright wrong. What you're saying is behavioral repression.

Is puppy love a carefully arranged multi-generational social engineering construct, or is it, god forbid, natural? How does one fall in love for that first time, and why? So why can feeling attraction to someone of the same sex be a social construct, especially if Western society for the last few centuries viciously opposed anything remotely homosexual?

If it's really a socially influenced thing, we would have seen their extinction by now with those centuries of oppression. On the contrary, children of heterosexual couples in rabidly sexually intolerant societies continue to become homosexual...even if the environment forced them to learn to hide such tendencies from the world. And we now know that intelligent animals like elephants exhibit homosexual behaviors, both male and female.

Homosexuality is natural. The few of us who get it are just waiting for the rest of the world to drop their petty prejudice.
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Old 2009-10-18, 02:23   Link #76
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@FragrantFlora: I don't understand. If you believe that a homosexual truly does not have a choice in regards to their homosexuality (whether because of genetics, birth order, environmental factors, etc), then how can they not be treated the same as any other person or group that also has no real choice in regards to their identity?

It is only if Homosexuality is in fact a choice (which all the current science says it is probably not), that a religious response can be used (and only in regards to marriage in a religion, state marriages are still a right that should be bestowed upon any and all consenting adults, no matter theri race, colour, creed, or sexual orientation). Otherwise, if homosexuality is in fact genetic (which seems more and more likely), then a religion (not necessarily a God, but the religion's interpretation of their God) rejecting a section of humanity because of the way nature (i.e. God) made them seems quite blasphemous to me. Of course, this is only if homosexuality is truly genetic, and not choice (I am not trying to offend with my remarks, religion is always a touchy subject, and far be it for me to try and bash anyone's religion. If you feel at all slighted, please PM me and I will apologies).

(I will now abstain from trying to pull religion into this discussion any further (sadly, it seems very likely that someone else will pull religion back in eventually ).)

That being said, I think you are confusing Egodystonic sexual orientation with homosexuality (don't worry, psychologists only, in the past 30 years, realized the difference ).
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Old 2009-10-18, 02:39   Link #77
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I personally believe the state should stop legislating marriage in general--and in fact remove itself from the entire institution (ie No tax credits for marriage). Leave marriage as a strictly religious union. Follow a seperation of church and state ideal more than they do. All the difficulties with gay marriage tend to disappear then.
This.

/thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
There's a serious disconnect between the thread title and the poll question ... to the point my "flame bait" flag has the safety off.

The conflation of civil marriage and religious marriage (in programmer-speak, "function overloading") has a lot to do with this issue (which often becomes a "stop thinking" hot button issue for homophobes who justify themselves with really shaky religious assertions).
Also this.

Seriously. Simple fix.

Just rename "marriage" to "civil union" whether it's between a man and a woman, a man and a man or a woman and a woman.

The argument against "gay marriage" is wholly built upon the ownership of the word "marriage."

Give them their word back, and let everyone have equal rights under the law, thanks.

The most complex problems in the world have the simplest fixes.

The economy? Want to fix that in four words?

Repeal all corporate taxes. There, economy fixed.

More proof that simple and easy aren't synonyms.
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Old 2009-10-18, 02:43   Link #78
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^ I always figured it should be as such, its quite entwined.
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Old 2009-10-18, 02:57   Link #79
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Considering what we know of behavioral science, that's outright wrong. What you're saying is behavioral repression.

Is puppy love a carefully arranged multi-generational social engineering construct, or is it, god forbid, natural? How does one fall in love for that first time, and why? So why can feeling attraction to someone of the same sex be a social construct, especially if Western society for the last few centuries viciously opposed anything remotely homosexual?

If it's really a socially influenced thing, we would have seen their extinction by now with those centuries of oppression. On the contrary, children of heterosexual couples in rabidly sexually intolerant societies continue to become homosexual...even if the environment forced them to learn to hide such tendencies from the world. And we now know that intelligent animals like elephants exhibit homosexual behaviors, both male and female.

Homosexuality is natural. The few of us who get it are just waiting for the rest of the world to drop their petty prejudice.
Thank you Irenicus. I agree with you. I think that most people who are gay or bi have biological factors at work. I'm totally convinced of this.

Think of it, FlagrantFlora, if it was more about nurture than nature, why do so many people 'turn out gay' despite having upbringings where heterosexuality is encouraged (or worse, homosexuality is vilified, on top of it). There have been homosexuals all throughout human history, all over the world. Most cultures have not looked kindly on it. There were gays in America in the 1920s-1950s (and earlier, of course). It just wasn't commonly heard of because people hid it in a society that condemned it. See, it was very condemned...didn't stop the fact that there were homosexual individuals. It is just that most of them repressed it, denied it, hid it from themselves and the rest of the world. Think of how many people are gay in the muslim world but just about no one ever finds out because if that comes out, they'll die? Again, societies where homosexuality is condemned, but there are still gay people in those societies. You see more and more gay and bi people in America these days because people can come out in this day and age and it isn't as terrible as some other countries out there.

Plus, the view that homosexuality comes natural to many gays and bis is not just a baseless view of mine. Scientific studies back it. More and more over time, scientific findings find that gays and bis have biological factors which dictate their sexuality. Like I said, some people are just experimental. But some (most gays and bis, I believe) can't help but be attracted to the same sex. Their inclination wasn't a concrete choice, that is for sure. Like I said before, why would people choose to be gay and put up with the bullshit? No, these people can't help but feel the way they do and they come out and date people of the same sex because it is natural for them and it will lead to a healthier, happier life for them (as someone said in this thread). They'll suffer if they live a lie.

And also, I find you have a wrong view in saying some gay people just "indulge" in the homosexual lifestyle. What do you mean by that? That people who feel that way about physical attraction are wrong for embracing it. They shouldn't date people that they want to date? That is only for the heterosexuals? I know you mentioned your religion calls it a sin, and I can respect that you have views aligned with your religion, but consider if people don't choose this aspect of themselves. It is pretty unfair to speak of them as social deviants over something about themselves they didn't choose.

I also thought about something about my first post...I wrote it but then thought about how I really think about this topic...I welcome it when a state legalizes gay marriage, and I'm for it, but I'm not a big advocate about it or anything. If it passes into law, it happens, and I don't complain. But to add to my views...what I really care about is these people getting the same rights. Married couples who are straight get benefits from being married and certain rights. I really just want to see gay couples get the same rights. Even if it was just civil unions with the same rights (although that would be separate but equal; not good), I want to see the same rights.
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Old 2009-10-18, 03:08   Link #80
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This.

/thread
I wonder what you people mean by "stopping legislating it completely"?

Whether you call it civil marriage or civil union, you think it should not be legislated at all? I let aside the same-sex union problem.

I don't exactly remember how it works in the USA, so i let it aside, but in France, a marriage is not only a signature on a piece of paper, and what you get and what the state compels you to do from a civil marriage is, imo, good for the couple, its family, and for the society.
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