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Old 2009-10-20, 11:11   Link #2481
npal
I desire Tomorrow!
 
 
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It's not the first time a "top" warrior/assassin/whatever lets his guard down due to having mellowed down and gets killed when he could own the world otherwise.

Spoiler for major Claymore spoiler:


In short, no matter how badass you are/were, not only will there appear someone better eventually, but being all lovey-dovey and living peacefully will eventually cause you to lower your guard. If your emenies didn't give up and were still seeking your head, that's the time you'll end up dead.

Last edited by npal; 2009-10-21 at 06:53. Reason: failed at spelling :p
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Old 2009-10-21, 03:15   Link #2482
Haak
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Originally Posted by Gilgamesh00 View Post
Come on!, kill people give a bad karma even if you make for survive, they killed a LOT of people in order to survive, even innocent people was killed, the way they died was great for me, Elen and Renji were happy intil the moment where they died, best end for a depressive life immersed in the most deep shit.
Yes but death isn't the only karmic ending. Reiji and Elen deciding to actively work to make other lives better and perhaps try and save lives would've been an equally karmic ending. Karma isn't simply "what goes around comes around".

I can't think of any reason why one would've wanted the former rather than the later, other than intense hatedom for Reiji and Elen. And you would have to hate them a lot if you'd rather they die than work to help others. It's either that or just not caring what happens to them either way.
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Old 2009-10-21, 04:36   Link #2483
ac195
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Yes but death isn't the only karmic ending. Reiji and Elen deciding to actively work to make other lives better and perhaps try and save lives would've been an equally karmic ending. Karma isn't simply "what goes around comes around".

I can't think of any reason why one would've wanted the former rather than the later, other than intense hatedom for Reiji and Elen. And you would have to hate them a lot if you'd rather they die than work to help others. It's either that or just not caring what happens to them either way.
The foreshadowing and tones of the show wouldn't make sense with the kind of ending you're describing.

Really, I have no idea why people can't accept this ending. This isn't Code Geass with all it's crazy twists and turns...
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Old 2009-10-21, 06:23   Link #2484
Haak
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Originally Posted by ac195 View Post
The foreshadowing and tones of the show wouldn't make sense with the kind of ending you're describing.
What kind of froeshadowing and tones?

Quote:
Really, I have no idea why people can't accept this ending. This isn't Code Geass with all it's crazy twists and turns...
I don't see how Reiji and Elen not getting shot would be a crazy twist.
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Old 2009-10-21, 08:33   Link #2485
ac195
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
What kind of froeshadowing and tones?.
Seriously???

Phantom ~ REQUIEM for the Phantom ~

...

How many times did they go on and on with their emo speeches about life/the world.

The title of the first opening song is KARMA .

The second ending song starts with Ein saying they are Phantom and can't exist anywhere. Hell, the lyrics are pretty spot on as well.

Did we even watch the same show?


As for the twist thing, I was making a point that people could dispute the Code Geass ending because that show had so many twists and turns, a mind fuck ending where C.C. addresses Lulu could be interpreted as him being the cart-driver during the end of R2. But that isn't the case with Phantom, the overall tone of the show is dark and grim... and thus the ending fit perfectly.
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Old 2009-10-21, 08:47   Link #2486
Haak
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Originally Posted by ac195 View Post
Seriously???

Phantom ~ REQUIEM for the Phantom ~

...
Yes, Requiem for the PHANTOM. Reiji and Elen wouldn't really be Phantoms in the Karmic ending I suggested.

Quote:
How many times did they go on and on with their emo speeches about life/the world.
Now that's a little vague. Personally the speeches I remember don't involve any takes about how they should die.

Quote:
The title of the first opening song is KARMA .
I have already told you that the ending I suggested is a Karmic ending. That doesn't count. You're supposed to be arguing how the the show has suggested death as a karmic ending rather than just a karmic ending.

Quote:
The second ending song starts with Ein saying they are Phantom and can't exist anywhere. Hell, the lyrics are pretty spot on as well.

Did we even watch the same show?
Yes because they are Phantoms. But the ending I suggested would've put an end to that wouldn't it, now that Elen knew where she came from.

Seriously, though, ending themes don't count. They could've easily just replaced it with another ending theme and it would've still worked.

Quote:
As for the twist thing, I was making a point that people could dispute the Code Geass ending because that show had so many twists and turns, a mind fuck ending where C.C. addresses Lulu could be interpreted as him being the cart-driver during the end of R2. But that isn't the case with Phantom, the overall tone of the show is dark and grim... and thus the ending fit perfectly.
Erm, the ending doesn't always have to fit in with mood of the show. That's how you get downer endings:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DownerEnding

"2. A similarly low-key or unhappy ending to an episode of a normally "happy" series."
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Old 2009-10-21, 09:04   Link #2487
npal
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Yes but death isn't the only karmic ending. Reiji and Elen deciding to actively work to make other lives better and perhaps try and save lives would've been an equally karmic ending. Karma isn't simply "what goes around comes around".

I can't think of any reason why one would've wanted the former rather than the later, other than intense hatedom for Reiji and Elen. And you would have to hate them a lot if you'd rather they die than work to help others. It's either that or just not caring what happens to them either way.
One would take the former over the latter for the simple reason that the latter is based on a baseless assumption that Elen and Reiji actually care to atone for whatever they did, something neither of them ever mentioned wanting to do. The best thing they said was "getting away from the past" which somehow also evolved to "forgetting the past was there" and that's all. While caring about themselves only is human, the fact that they kept carrying a burden of slaughter they never wanted to shed given the chance makes them targets of karmic retribution, something which they finally received. That fate was kind enough to offer them their final wish is merciful enough for sworn murderers.
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Old 2009-10-21, 09:22   Link #2488
Haak
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Originally Posted by npal View Post
One would take the former over the latter for the simple reason that the latter is based on a baseless assumption that Elen and Reiji actually care to atone for whatever they did, something neither of them ever mentioned wanting to do. The best thing they said was "getting away from the past" which somehow also evolved to "forgetting the past was there" and that's all. While caring about themselves only is human, the fact that they kept carrying a burden of slaughter they never wanted to shed given the chance makes them targets of karmic retribution, something which they finally received. That fate was kind enough to offer them their final wish is merciful enough for sworn murderers.
Yes that's why i said "deciding to".
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Old 2009-10-21, 09:49   Link #2489
Slick_rick
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Yes that's why i said "deciding to".
Then that would be adding an element to there character no there in the beginning with the express purpose of giving them a way out of death. They could have easily done the same for Claudia and Cal too if they in fact wanted them to live. Then in the end we can see them all running carefree through a sea of dandelions. This however loses the impact of the show being a tragedy. Blame the Greeks for inventing the genre otherwise characters like Romeo and Juliet would all end up living happily ever after. Unfortunately happy ending aren't mandatory especially in this type of show.
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Old 2009-10-21, 09:51   Link #2490
Haak
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Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
Then that would be adding an element to there character no there in the beginning with the express purpose of giving them a way out of death. They could have easily done the same for Claudia and Cal too if they in fact wanted them to live. Then in the end we can see them all running carefree through a sea of dandelions. This however loses the impact of the show being a tragedy. Blame the Greeks for inventing the genre otherwise characters like Romeo and Juliet would all end up living happily ever after. Unfortunately happy ending aren't mandatory especially in this type of show.
Sure it would've been an added element that would've given them a happy ending, but since it seemed to going that way anyway, it doesn't matter. I consider the deaths of Reiji and (possibly) Elen to be more Diabolus Ex Machina, than it being a Tragedy. That's why I'm asking if there was anything to suggest that they were going to die.
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Old 2009-10-21, 10:01   Link #2491
Slick_rick
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Sure it would've been an added element that would've given them a happy ending, but since it seemed to going that way anyway, it doesn't matter. I consider the deaths of Reiji and (possibly) Elen to be more Diabolus Ex Machina, than it being a Tragedy. That's why I'm asking if there was anything to suggest that they were going to die.
Yes a lot including there in own words. Elen pretty much said she was expecting to join SM in death once she accomplished her goal of finding her home. The whole atmosphere of the show was on tragic deaths. Pretty much every major character died up until that point so them having a happy ending was certainly not some forgone conclusion if anything it was the opposite.
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Old 2009-10-21, 10:07   Link #2492
Haak
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Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
Yes a lot including there in own words. Elen pretty much said she was expecting to join SM in death once she accomplished her goal of finding her home. The whole atmosphere of the show was on tragic deaths. Pretty much every major character died up until that point so them having a happy ending was certainly not some forgone conclusion if anything it was the opposite.
Yes but Elen said that in the ending though, didn't she?

Those tragic deaths were because of karma. I think that was the theme of the show. But like I said, the ending I suggested would've been equally karmic. The only reason the others got deaths was because they didn't try to escape. But Reiji and Elen did. It would've still been fitting.
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Old 2009-10-21, 10:21   Link #2493
Slick_rick
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Yes but Elen said that in the ending though, didn't she?

Those tragic deaths were because of karma. I think that was the theme of the show. But like I said, the ending I suggested would've been equally karmic. The only reason the others got deaths was because they didn't try to escape. But Reiji and Elen did. It would've still been fitting.
And like I said not all endings have to be happy. They certainly could have added that element to keep it about Karma if they wanted to but they chose not to. Reiji and Elen were not about atoning for what they did. In the end their past sins caught up with them as they knew it would they just wanted to find a little happiness before the end. They got it and then they died. Tragic ending. Certainly not a Dues Ex Machina. The possibility was there all the time you're just are having a hard time accepting it. Watch more shows like this you'll get use to it. I've watched my fair share of endings similar to this. I don't mind happy endings but tragic ones suit me just as well.
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Old 2009-10-21, 10:26   Link #2494
Zwei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Sure it would've been an added element that would've given them a happy ending, but since it seemed to going that way anyway, it doesn't matter. I consider the deaths of Reiji and (possibly) Elen to be more Diabolus Ex Machina, than it being a Tragedy. That's why I'm asking if there was anything to suggest that they were going to die.
Agreed. It was a Deus Ex Machina ending which is the reason I haven't rewatched this show, yet.
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Old 2009-10-21, 11:15   Link #2495
npal
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I think some people are greatly misusing the DeM device in this argument. I'm not sure whether it's deliberate or people aren't aware of what a DeM is.

Inferno never seeking them again, that would have been the ridiculous issue. If you're the mafia, letting TWO individuals mess up your entire organization and not doing anything about it is really bad for business. They were obviously going to keep tracking them. I didn't see MacGuire's last speech implying anything about letting them off the hook. Giving them enough space to feel safe is a surefire way to create an opening, which they did, and finally got them. That this rather common and obligatory underworld tactic becomes the deliverer of retribution at that particular time furthermore enhances the themes of the story.

The "they escaped, other didn't try" part. Well, the others got killed in sorrow (ok, Cal's on the fence for me on this one so I don't really count her for my argument), Reiji and Elen were killed after getting that one thing they sought. That's difference enough.

The assassin that killed them didn't come out of nowhere. Even if there wasn't an organization like Inferno to hunt them down, the fact is they made a lot of enemies through Inferno, and they'd be more than enough people to go after their heads. Not having them named explicitly hardly removes them from the grand picture.

Even if it was stated that NO ONE that was after them in the end, the series is based on tragedy, accumulating guilt, karma, making explicit statements about "phantoms" being nothing (like stop existing) when they stop being "phantoms", and having NUMEROUS examples (Cal, Clau, Lizie, etc) of how the burden of sins catches up to the individual. Based on that, expecting them to tragically die by ANYTHING, especially considering that they never ONCE in the series sought any form of atomenent, is pretty much reasonable and warranted.

Last edited by npal; 2009-10-21 at 11:34.
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Old 2009-10-21, 11:36   Link #2496
Zwei
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Huh? LOL? Atonement? ROFLMAO! Ah...that was hilarious.

Is this the Meiji era? Should they go around the world helping poor or something? How should they atone? By continuing to kill people? I don't get your point where in all your posts you keep saying it was "karma" and that a "happy ending" would have never occured but then you bring up something like "atonement"? Wtf is this, a shounen manga? LOL!

If I were suffering and forced to kill people by the last 3 years, why the hell would I want to continue suffer? I would have expected it if there was some kind of hero in this story but there wasn't. How can he atone for killing people? Construct a resurrection device so he can bring the dead back to the living? If it was me, I'd just live a normal life and forget about the past and all that suffering I ever faced.

Quote:
The assassin that killed them didn't come out of nowhere. Even if there wasn't an organization like Inferno to hunt them down, the fact is they made a lot of enemies through Inferno, and they'd be more than enough people to go after their heads. Not having them named explicitly hardly removes them from the grand picture.
You're right, he warned Reiji before he was gonna kill him and Reiji let his guard down on purpose so he can kill him.
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Old 2009-10-21, 12:00   Link #2497
npal
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Huh? LOL? Atonement? ROFLMAO! Ah...that was hilarious.

Is this the Meiji era? Wtf is this, a shounen manga? LOL!

Construct a resurrection device so he can bring the dead back to the living? If it was me, I'd just live a normal life and forget about the past and all that suffering I ever faced.

You're right, he warned Reiji before he was gonna kill him and Reiji let his guard down on purpose so he can kill him.
I now see the irrationality of my argument.
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Old 2009-10-21, 12:03   Link #2498
Zwei
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Originally Posted by npal View Post
I now see the irrationality of my argument.
Yeah, quoting what you want and leaving the other parts which you can't answer out, How fun!
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Old 2009-10-21, 12:06   Link #2499
npal
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Yeah, quoting what you want and leaving the other parts which you can't answer out, How fun!
Seeing as these quotes made up an astounding half of your post, I think you missed the point.
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Old 2009-10-21, 12:08   Link #2500
Slick_rick
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Huh? LOL? Atonement? ROFLMAO! Ah...that was hilarious.

Is this the Meiji era? Should they go around the world helping poor or something? How should they atone? By continuing to kill people? I don't get your point where in all your posts you keep saying it was "karma" and that a "happy ending" would have never occured but then you bring up something like "atonement"? Wtf is this, a shounen manga? LOL!

If I were suffering and forced to kill people by the last 3 years, why the hell would I want to continue suffer? I would have expected it if there was some kind of hero in this story but there wasn't. How can he atone for killing people? Construct a resurrection device so he can bring the dead back to the living? If it was me, I'd just live a normal life and forget about the past and all that suffering I ever faced..
Well, atonement as a theme is fairly ubiquitous in genres. They're are many way to try to atone for ones past sins. This show though partially stayed away from adding that theme. It could have but it didn't. Atonement doesn't always lead to a happy ending as rarely are people that forgiving but it certainly increases the chances. Reiji and Elen were not about that though. Whether you can ever truly atone for killing a person is debatable but they didn't even try.

Whether you would return to a normal life to forget about your past and all the suffering you faced doesn't make all suffering you caused any less real. Their past caught up with them as it does with most people. Life sucks. If this was Shounen, then the power of love and forgiveness would make everything better. Perhaps it is you who are confused about what kind of show this is.
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