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View Poll Results: Itachi - Hero or Villain? Or something else?
Hero 80 36.53%
Anti-Hero 46 21.00%
Other 24 10.96%
Villain 19 8.68%
Anti-Villain 50 22.83%
Voters: 219. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-10-21, 20:48   Link #61
The-Wolf-Of-Mibu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpecialK View Post
Seriously, calling Itachi a hero is like calling George W. Bush smart.

Though he may be a tragic figure, his character is anything but a hero. Arguments could be made for an anti-hero, weak as they may be. His conduct, personality, and development most suit that of an anti-villain. The intentions exhibited in this case would look to be heroic, but himself and the his methods are nothing short of villainous. Looking at the entirety of his life ex post facto you will see a heroic attempt at restoring the honor of an ashamed and secretive clan, in fact, he even set up retribution for himself in the form of Sasuke revenge. He himself knew that he was a villain and sought accountability for his crimes. A tragic hero would of had a big problem with almost all of Itachi's actions but not necessarily their outcomes. If a person is to be ascribed their worth by the outcomes of their actions, than an argument may be made for Itachi's heroism. Rather, if a person's actions define who they are, as I believe they do (and also every other deontologist ever), Itachi's character must be described in terms of what he does rather than the consequences that they produce.
Problem being, you cannot point to a single action he commited that was "evil" as you put it.

Killing his clan? We know why that happened. It was the Uchiha's who were planning a coup and the village elders ordered itachi to carry out the mission. Even then he did not kill his kid brother.

While with Akatsuki? We don't have a single evidence of him commiting any heinous crimes. Even when he fought Kakashi, he chose not to kill Kakashi. (Kakashi himself wondered why Itachi didn't kill him since as Kakashi put it, it would have been "easy for him" to do so). You could further argue that Itachi considers kakashi a real ninja and he knew Kakashi could bear the torture and would come out stronger from it.

Kicking Oro's ass? Thats obviously good.
Transferring some power to Naruto? good.
Sacrificing his relationship and his honor in order to get sasuke to grow strong? Good.

Itachi = tragic hero
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Old 2009-10-22, 02:08   Link #62
Ryuujin
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Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu View Post
Problem being, you cannot point to a single action he commited that was "evil" as you put it.

Killing his clan? We know why that happened. It was the Uchiha's who were planning a coup and the village elders ordered itachi to carry out the mission. Even then he did not kill his kid brother.

While with Akatsuki? We don't have a single evidence of him commiting any heinous crimes. Even when he fought Kakashi, he chose not to kill Kakashi. (Kakashi himself wondered why Itachi didn't kill him since as Kakashi put it, it would have been "easy for him" to do so). You could further argue that Itachi considers kakashi a real ninja and he knew Kakashi could bear the torture and would come out stronger from it.

Kicking Oro's ass? Thats obviously good.
Transferring some power to Naruto? good.
Sacrificing his relationship and his honor in order to get sasuke to grow strong? Good.

Itachi = tragic hero
Really, Itachi's actions in Konoha make no sense unless he wasn't a villain. He doesn't make any real effort to fight, flees at the prospect of serious resistance, doesn't capture Naruto despite supposedly coming for that reason, etc.

Compare this to the way the rest of Akatsuki acts, and you'll see what I mean. Attacking the major villages, attacking unrelated targets, slaughtering people at random, taking hostages and then killing them for the lulz after your demands are met, blowing Konoha the fuck up, provoking international incidents, and so forth.
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Old 2009-10-22, 02:19   Link #63
Waking_Dreamer
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He killed his own innocent mother, uncle and auntie...?!
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Old 2009-10-22, 02:25   Link #64
SpecialK
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Killing his clan? We know why that happened. It was the Uchiha's who were planning a coup and the village elders ordered itachi to carry out the mission. Even then he did not kill his kid brother.
This is arguing from a consequentialist's perspective. You are sacrificing the lives of an unspecified number of people for the possibility of saving more lives as a result. For Itachi, as a pacifist, and a just war pacifist at that, he would argue that he himself is a villain for taking all those people's lives. Everybody, classically, has a right to life, and he violated their rights for an ambiguous conception of the good. His actions are not justified as they would be if he were truly a hero, they are merely excusable but still immoral.

Quote:
While with Akatsuki? We don't have a single evidence of him commiting any heinous crimes.
This is just a naive sentiment. In order to keep up pretenses we must assume and Kishi himself implies that Itachi had to do acts in line with the goals of an evil organization. Which logically demonstrate a propensity for violence and pain, even though remorse may be associated with the actions.

These cases that you are presenting are just proving my point, he is not exhibiting heroic qualities. He is acting on his own rational self-interest in some instances and in the case of Naruto, how could we know what power he gave Naruto or what his intentions were for the use of said power. Also, most of what we know of Itachi's intentions were relayed to us, the audience, through a biased medium, Uchiha Madara. We cannot and should not take everything that Madara told Sasuke as scripture. Madara has a history of manipulation and trickery that can't be overooked in this context, and Madara's goal at the time was to manipulate Sasuke into working for him.

Once again, I will state that Itachi is an anti-villain. Not a hero. He is a villain due to the actions that he takes, when a hero would classically take the higher road. His methods are villainous but his intentions are contrary to that, aka heroic. Working with a character on a holistic level, any person should be able to derive this conclusion from Itachi's character.
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Old 2009-10-22, 04:03   Link #65
Casshern
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Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu View Post
Problem being, you cannot point to a single action he commited that was "evil" as you put it.

Killing his clan? We know why that happened. It was the Uchiha's who were planning a coup and the village elders ordered itachi to carry out the mission. Even then he did not kill his kid brother.
Didn't kill his brother but killed innocent children, even babies. Not tragic hero, not any kind of hero.
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Old 2009-10-22, 05:58   Link #66
Rahan
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Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu View Post
Killing his clan? We know why that happened. It was the Uchiha's who were planning a coup and the village elders ordered itachi to carry out the mission. Even then he did not kill his kid brother.
So what ?
It's still genocide. You think his aunt was plotting a rebellion.
It's still not excusable no matter how hard you try.


Quote:
While with Akatsuki? We don't have a single evidence of him commiting any heinous crimes. Even when he fought Kakashi, he chose not to kill Kakashi. (Kakashi himself wondered why Itachi didn't kill him since as Kakashi put it, it would have been "easy for him" to do so). You could further argue that Itachi considers kakashi a real ninja and he knew Kakashi could bear the torture and would come out stronger from it.
We have evidence of Itachi fighting alongside Kisame. Kisame calling him ruthless, the Cloud knowing exactly how skilled he is with Amaterasu.
And that wasn't for World Peace.


Quote:
Kicking Oro's ass? Thats obviously good.
Obviously not.
He was attacked by Oro, yet chose to let him live, which has nonsense / plothole if he is a good guy. Or you can consider Kazuzu a "better" guy for killing many Akatsuki.

Quote:
Transferring some power to Naruto? good.
Sacrificing his relationship and his honor in order to get sasuke to grow strong? Good.
In the end, Sasuke is the only character he showed loyalty for.
He approved of genocide (which make him rank very high in the scum scale) to prevent a war, but if Sasuke is the one starting the war, then it's fine and rather than prevent Sasuke from doing it, he'd rather put the world at stake by powering up Sasuke and then gamble everything on Naruto because he is the only one who will refuse to kill Sasuke no matter how many Sasuke kill.

Using genocide to prevent a war only to help another war to start is not called heroism, it's called stupidity. And it shows that in the end, peace never was Itachi's goal. Everything was for Sasuke.

Also, if the guys who consider Itachi a hero could stop calling Danzou a villain, they would start making sense.
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Old 2009-10-22, 07:19   Link #67
Android_17
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Itachi was a True Hero and a Bad Ass One at That
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Old 2009-10-22, 14:30   Link #68
Shay
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Itachi was a True Hero and a Bad Ass One at That
Hmm, really?

I don't think he'll be invited to Spiderman and Captain America's house warming party...
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Old 2009-10-22, 14:48   Link #69
Ricky Controversy
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Itachi was an Anti-Villain who has the semblance of a hero because his idealistic goals and ultimate self-sacrifices stand out against a cast full of people with more dubious morals. I say the actions define the man, and while I admire him for being willing to sacrifice his honor, reputation, happiness and finally his life to try to avert a war, you must never forget all the things he made other people sacrifice because of his priority dissonance.

If he had picked one thing to stand for and stood for it absolutely, rather than standing 'against war', then 'for the village', then 'for my brother' in turn, he'd have had the chance to be a hero, but as it stands his indecision early in life set him on a path that was difficult to correct.
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Old 2009-10-22, 14:51   Link #70
Android_17
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Hmm, really?

I don't think he'll be invited to Spiderman and Captain America's house warming party...
Well he did save The Village from a Coupe d'etat and he tried to Protect his little Borther too and he died for the sake of Sasuke's Mangekyou Sharingan so I think he is quite the Hero
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Old 2009-10-22, 15:00   Link #71
Ricky Controversy
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Originally Posted by Android_17 View Post
Well he did save The Village from a Coup d'etat
By murdering an entire clan, including many members who were likely innocent and in the process, showing considerable cynicism, allied with Madara to achieve this.

Quote:
He tried to protect his little brother
His aim was to strengthen his brother, yes, but if you think about it, there are better ways to have done it. If he'd killed off the whole clan but kept his role in it secret from Sasuke, then arranged for Sasuke to remain under his care, he'd have turned Sasuke into a phenomenal shinobi with far less baggage.

Quote:
He died for the sake of Sasuke's Mangekyou Sharingan so I think he is quite the Hero
Again, something he probably could have done in a more peaceful fashion if he hadn't built his plans on very cynical assumptions. He had good goals in mind, but his own dark-tinted understanding of the world left him blind (no pun intended) to other, better options. As much as he tried to fix problems he saw in the shinobi world, he chose to remain complicit in some of those same problems.
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Old 2009-10-22, 15:46   Link #72
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Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy View Post
By murdering an entire clan, including many members who were likely innocent and in the process, showing considerable cynicism, allied with Madara to achieve this.



His aim was to strengthen his brother, yes, but if you think about it, there are better ways to have done it. If he'd killed off the whole clan but kept his role in it secret from Sasuke, then arranged for Sasuke to remain under his care, he'd have turned Sasuke into a phenomenal shinobi with far less baggage.



Again, something he probably could have done in a more peaceful fashion if he hadn't built his plans on very cynical assumptions. He had good goals in mind, but his own dark-tinted understanding of the world left him blind (no pun intended) to other, better options. As much as he tried to fix problems he saw in the shinobi world, he chose to remain complicit in some of those same problems.
This.

Even the kindest of intentions can lead to the greatest of evils....
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Old 2009-10-23, 02:33   Link #73
SpecialK
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I'm really tired of reading arguments for Itachi being a hero that are substantiated upon a few isolated cases and not the character at the whole. By the way props to Ricky Controversy, good arguments were made...very much in line with my own on the whole. Anyone who truly wants to argue for Itachi to be a hero, I suggest that they first go pull out a Webster's Oxford English Dictionary and look up the classic definition of a hero and then attempt to argue. You should find that the character Kishi created in Itachi and the definition are in direct contradiction to one another.
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Old 2009-10-23, 06:16   Link #74
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He's a villain. The story is about Naruto. Anything that opposes Naruto is a villain regardless of their motives until they become best friends forever with him. Luckily that doesn't happen too often since they end up dead anyways.
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Old 2009-10-24, 07:16   Link #75
Android_17
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So What if he Isn't a True or Good hero he still was Bad Ass and he had Good intentions
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Old 2009-10-24, 20:37   Link #76
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Regarding definitions, I just looked up the definitions found here: http://dictionary.reference.com/

I still didn't decide which category I'd put Itachi in, since he had good goals but questionable methods. A civil war that would build up into a greater war was almost certain (the civil war being certain, and the greater war a good guess), and Itachi made the decision of killing few to save many. I don't know other people, but if my family were attempting to take power by force and creating certain civil war in the process, which probably would lead to a "world war", I would almost certainly choose to kill them (if I had the power to) instead of letting millions of people die (I say millions here because I am applying this to the real world). I say almost certainly because I fortunately have never had to make that kind of choice.
That being said, I think Itachi chose the methods he used because it was a way to guarantee that things would go the way he planned them to. There could have been other methods, but none (in Itachi's point of view) were sure-fire as the ones he used. He planned things so that the level of uncertainty in the way things played out was reduced to a minimum - and the only thing that went wrong with his plan was Madara surviving the Amaterasu because he managed to hide something from Itachi. At least that's what I think.

I see Itachi as a good guy, even though he had to do some pretty horrible things. He would be like The Boss in Metal Gear Solid 3, but more of a martyr since he would have liked to die without even Sasuke knowing what his true intentions were; and he wasn't ordered to do anything - he decided what to do by himself, and would have sustained the weight of everyone's hate, including Sasuke's + the guilt of killing his clan (I am guessing he wouldn't feel so guilty for the ones planning the coup, but to maintain the facade he wanted, he had to kill others who were innocent) to his death.

I think Kishimoto wanted him to be looked upon as a hero, with Madara's revelation. Itachi's last words and poke to Sasuke's head is the scene that I want to see the most in the anime - it is to me the most intense moment in the series untill now.
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Old 2009-10-24, 21:51   Link #77
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Playing the role of a villain to the very end for someone else sake makes him a tragic hero in my eyes. Before you found out about how and why he became a missing-nin, you could have labeled him as definitely or maybe a villain. All that grief you put on Itachi for killing his friend, family, betrayals, and hanging out with weirdos inverts in respect when you find out he did it selflessly for his otouto. Respect on top of his badass factor. Kinda like in dating games where there’s a chance in the story where all that hate a character feels for you flips into love through some incident (paraphrased from World God Only Knows--myself have no experience in those kind of games--seriously--ha ha ha )
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Old 2009-10-26, 17:37   Link #78
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Uh he killed his own wife and child. He performed the twelve labors as a form of repentance for the tragedy. Not to mention the number of other people he accidentally kills, some just because he can't control his monstrous strength like if Superman let out a sneeze.

And uh.. are you up to date in the manga? Everything Itachi did, he did for Konoha. Which is why I call him a tragic hero - because although he committed some unspeakable acts, he did so out of necessity in his own mind and for a greater good.
I disagree. Hercules was truly repentant. He killed his wife and children because he was driven insane by Hera. It should be noted he was originally only required to do 10 labors the other two labors were added, because he received help. In any case he did accidently kill numerous others while he was drunk and so forth, but again his character always has shown great remorse.

Itachi on the other hand is manipulative and willing with full knowledge of the consequences manipulating his brother through a path of hate not to mention he willing helped in the destruction of his clan. Sure in his mind he's doing what he believes is necessary, but if you take that notion than Madara is a tragic hero as well since he's doing what he believes must be done for the betterment of the world. Itachi in my opinion is a villain.
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Old 2009-10-26, 20:48   Link #79
Hunter
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Uh he killed his own wife and child. He performed the twelve labors as a form of repentance for the tragedy. Not to mention the number of other people he accidentally kills, some just because he can't control his monstrous strength like if Superman let out a sneeze.
Well that's pretty much routine for the heroic figures of old, what you're thinking about are patsies in spendex.
Old heroes are usually suicidally gloomy when sober and homicidally insane when drunk.
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Old 2009-11-05, 05:20   Link #80
amie92
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itachi is hero!

he save konoha from destruction for second time .
in a way to attck his village his meet uciha madara tht invade konoha to attck his clan and konoha.
but itachi begging to him not to aatck konoha in favor he attck his village because ucihah madara once does not be like in his village .
ucihah itachi is hero in konoha but villian in his village
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