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Old 2009-10-22, 08:59   Link #2521
Haak
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Okay, I found the appropriate trope:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...in.OlafsHammer
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Last edited by Haak; 2009-10-22 at 09:23.
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Old 2009-10-22, 09:42   Link #2522
Slick_rick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Okay, I found the appropriate trope:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...in.OlafsHammer
I don't really get what your claiming is associated with this trope. Could you elaborate?
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Old 2009-10-22, 09:48   Link #2523
Haak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
I don't really get what your claiming is associated with this trope. Could you elaborate?
Er...I can't really think of anyway to put it, at the moment.
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Old 2009-10-22, 10:17   Link #2524
npal
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I still cannot get what
Quote:
"Using that established prop/character to solve the new problem would result in the problem being solved ten minutes into the story"
has to do with Phantom. The first time Inferno was after them, ScytheMaster and the new Phantom were alive and kicking, with SM having his new army of Phantom-clones. The setting was different, the players were different. I'd assume that MacGuire clearly thought he had the upper hand (and why wouldn't he think that since his new Phantom was even more vicious than the last one). Then there was that "Godou Group territory - Do not cross" police line that Inferno chose to take into account. That they didn't use the "other assassin" to kill them off then was a matter of different issues entirely, which did fit to the plot and the mentality of the characters involved.

I won't really doubt that should Inferno have taken the 8 sec way before that, they did have a chance of success indeed. However, it'd be harder to swallow that Reiji and Elen, who still both had a wish to fulfil to each other, would be as easy targets as they were in Mongolia, although this whole paragraph is more of an assumption than a fact so it could be argued otherwise.

Also, do note that the final plot device had always been there and it was a pretty valid plot device to pull. I think people find it difficult to swallow how Reiji and Elen became human enough to be killed of like that and how the story made no explicit statement every other episode that the mafia works that way. To the first issue, Reiji and Elen WANTED to become human even with all the "Phantom is not there if it's not Phantom" talk, and they did, which got them killed by people of their kind. To the second issue, just how many deaths and paybacks MORE should the series have to imprint onto people that mafia always settles scores whenever possible?
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Old 2009-10-22, 10:45   Link #2525
Haak
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^ No That's not it. It's not that it happened. It's how it happened.
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Old 2009-10-22, 10:46   Link #2526
npal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
^ No That's not it. It's not that it happened. It's how it happened.
Isn't that more of a personal opinion than an objective fault in storytelling? I mean if it's not DeM and it's not "whatever X" thing, if the plot and the story can support it without the need to 1) play the game, the crappy failballs of light actually make sense to a gamer in a game (one of the lamest things I've seen ever) 2) read the manga or 3) whatever outside source/intervention, the only thing one could say is "I didn't like the ending".

What I saw in this thread however is:

1)RAGE
2)RAEG
3)MORE RAGE
4)DENIAL
5)EDIT EP EPICNESS (MORE DENIAL)
6)PUPPETEER (ATTEMPT TO JUSTIFY RAGE) -> "Oh, no, Reiji is invincible, he can't die! He sees all! He's Phantom! Character behavior fails"
7)FAILED DEM JUSTICATION
8)You + a few other intelligent people.

At least your arguments are nicely put, unlike many other people around these parts.

PS And hello to all negrep trolls out there

Last edited by npal; 2009-10-22 at 11:02. Reason: fixed here and there :p
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Old 2009-10-22, 10:50   Link #2527
Haak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by npal View Post
Isn't that more of a personal opinion than an objective fault in storytelling?
Well, yeah...


...


why would would you think otherwise?
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Old 2009-10-22, 11:01   Link #2528
npal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Well, yeah...


...


why would would you think otherwise?
Well, I edited my post to show why I would think otherwise. Yeah, took me a while
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Old 2009-10-22, 11:07   Link #2529
Haak
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To be honest I think even a DeM is a subjective thing. As TvTropes puts it:

"The lines between Deus Ex Machina and other devices are thin and blurry"
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Old 2009-10-22, 11:10   Link #2530
npal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
To be honest I think even a DeM is a subjective thing. As TvTropes puts it:

"The lines between Deus Ex Machina and other devices are thin and blurry"
Yes but at least in the last few posts you gave valid reasons as to why you believe it can be some sort of DeM.
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Old 2009-10-22, 11:26   Link #2531
Haak
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I guess all I can say is that it's a Diabolus Ex Machina in it's purpose.

In other words, it was intended to troll us by making us think we'd get a happy ending only promptly piss all over that in the final moments.
But instead of coming out of nowhere, it fitted with the plot and made sense.

And that, to me, is even more a piss-take.
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Old 2009-10-22, 15:22   Link #2532
Kaoru Chujo
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Endings are so hard. I wasn't totally satisfied. I'd like them to have done something where the karmic retribution was clearer and more dark. Or even to have had an open semi-happy end, where they realized that finding Ellen's home meant nothing, really, and they had to live long lives in consciousness of sin. But I'm not going to let thirty seconds at the end ruin my enjoyment of an excellent six months of anime.

I wonder if they had knock-down, drag-out battles among the writers and producers and ended up leaving it ever-so-slightly open for a next Phantom series featuring Ellen alone or with a new partner. Or with Reiji after another (one of the bad aspects of the show) miraculous resurrection.
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Old 2009-10-22, 16:30   Link #2533
GDB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
I wonder if they had knock-down, drag-out battles among the writers and producers and ended up leaving it ever-so-slightly open for a next Phantom series featuring Ellen alone or with a new partner. Or with Reiji after another (one of the bad aspects of the show) miraculous resurrection.
There isn't going to be a sequel.
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Old 2009-10-22, 16:57   Link #2534
Kaoru Chujo
Minase Inori
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GDB View Post
There isn't going to be a sequel.
Do you base that on reports, or just on the facts that viewership and DVD sales have been so poor? They might not have known how badly it would do when they wrote the script for this ep.

And I still don't understand why the show was so unpopular, when I liked it so much. Maybe it just didn't push the right buttons for people who like this genre, whereas it did for me, someone who doesn't watch this kind of show that much.
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Hashihime blog | Twitter @nakanokimi | summer 2014 previews | summer 2014 schedule |
characters/seiyuus: | Mahouka Koukou | Glasslip | Tokyo Ghoul | Sailor Moon Crystal | Locodol | Ao Haru Ride | Hanayamata | Aldnoah.Zero | Nozaki-kun | Magimoji Rurumo | Zankyou no Terror | Tokyo ESP | Rokujouma no Shinryakusha | Love Stage!! | Jinsei | Rail Wars | Blade Dance | Himegoto
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Old 2009-10-23, 06:46   Link #2535
Nayrael
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Baded on this article, it seems that there will be some picture drama's in DVD5. Hopefully, someone will translated them.
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Old 2009-10-23, 06:54   Link #2536
ac195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwei View Post
That's because Reiji and Ein were pawns in Light's hands, get what I'm saying? Light was Sycthe/Claudia/McGuire.

Take another example Code Geass, so Kallen should have received the death flag just because she was a pawn in Lelouch's hands and killed people? And all the other people that were being manipulated as well? Their pawns (Ein/Reiji) survived but Light and Lelouch didn't. The only difference is that we got the whole series from a different perspective view (Reiji).
I have no idea what you're trying to say here in response to the post you quoted.

But, I'd just like to add... Karen was never a candidate for the death flag in my mind.

Seriously, she was Japanese (or at least considered herself to be that way) and was fighting for Japan. Oh, and she was pretty much the top female character in the series (well, you two C.C./Karen factions can fight it out... it's too much trouble, so I'll just say they both can stand on the #1 spot on the podium ). Combined with all the "Nippon, Banzai!!!"'s, "Sakuradite", and "The United States of Japan"... yeah, I seriously didn't see them killing her off...
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Old 2009-10-23, 07:06   Link #2537
Zwei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ac195 View Post
I have no idea what you're trying to say here in response to the post you quoted.
Quote:
Did you think Light was gonna rule the world at the end of Death Note?
No, we didn't think he would rule the world, but what's that got to do with this ending? Nothing. The leader of INFERNO is still alive and well.

If you compare him to Sycthe Master then, you're right.

Reiji and Ein were just pawns, of course their death was surprising and shocking - that was what BeeTrain were aiming after all, to surprise and shock us.

I never thought Kallen would get killed in CG and I knew I was right, but if I had to compare her - I would compare her with Reiji/Ein.
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Old 2009-10-23, 07:14   Link #2538
ac195
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Originally Posted by Zwei View Post
No, we didn't think he would rule the world, but what's that got to do with this ending? Nothing. The leader of INFERNO is still alive and well.

If you compare him to Sycthe Master then, you're right.

Reiji and Ein were just pawns, of course their death was surprising and shocking - that was what BeeTrain were aiming after all, to surprise and shock us.

I never thought Kallen would get killed in CG and I knew I was right, but if I had to compare her - I would compare her with Reiji/Ein.
Oh, with the Death Note reference I was addressing the overall tones and progression of the two shows. Just like how we all "knew" that Light was gonna die at the end of Death Note... we all should have had some idea that Phantom-Requiem for the Phantom wasn't going to have a happy ending with all the hints it was dropping along the way.
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Old 2009-10-23, 07:18   Link #2539
Zwei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ac195 View Post
Oh, with the Death Note reference I was addressing the overall tones and progression of the two shows. Just like how we all "knew" that Light was gonna die at the end of Death Note... we all should have had some idea that Phantom-Requiem for the Phantom wasn't going to have a happy ending with all the hints it was dropping along the way.
You're right about that, I mean - if I had never played the game I wouldn't have been as surprised as I was back when I watched the last episode. They were dropping hints like crazy for a "Road of the Cerulean Sky" ending, which was quite obvious seeing as 99% of all VN adaptations follow the main/first heroine ending in the anime.
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Old 2009-10-23, 07:30   Link #2540
Slick_rick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
Do you base that on reports, or just on the facts that viewership and DVD sales have been so poor? They might not have known how badly it would do when they wrote the script for this ep.

And I still don't understand why the show was so unpopular, when I liked it so much. Maybe it just didn't push the right buttons for people who like this genre, whereas it did for me, someone who doesn't watch this kind of show that much.
I'd say the chances of a sequel if not 0% is close enough. If any BeeTrain series was going to get a sequel then it'd be Noir but even then there's very little chance of that happening. Phantom told the story they wanted to tell and I don't expect them to go making up new material just for the sake of continuing the story. Even if it was hugely popular they've never seem the type of studio that would go out of there way to milk a series. If they were we'd have seen it with Noir.

If anything I find the show a success artistically. It could have done a bit better during the middle of the show but it had a lot of good moments. The deaths scenes of almost all the characters were musically and visually well done. The Tony Stone Arc I felt was one of its highest moments and where it was truly representative of the genre. Other than that it was solid but lacked a lot of the gritty feel I would expect. I bit too chaste for me.

Fans of the genre will probably enjoy the ending more than those that aren't. I'd expect a better showing in America where there isn't as much VN pollution to taint the views and this genre is much more widely popular but even then I'd don't expect it to do poorly in Japan by any means. I wish we had some solid numbers to see how its doing there but on music and visual appeal it should pull in its fair share of fans naturally.
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