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Old 2009-10-22, 11:25   Link #821
Ricky Controversy
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Originally Posted by CrowKenobi View Post
Not taking into account about how much of an unreliable narrator Kyon is...
Oh no, taking that into account is entirely what makes it such fun! Anyone else would be easier to pin down, and that's dull.
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Old 2009-10-22, 11:26   Link #822
quigonkenny
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Kyon has shown evidence of being physically attracted to just about every female in the series so far, which is exactly how it should be. For one, they're all attractive, since in fiction every woman is attractive unless being physically unattractive is part of their character, and second, Kyon's as horny a teenage male as the next guy (unless the next guy is Taniguchi).
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Old 2009-10-22, 11:44   Link #823
Ricky Controversy
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Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
Kyon has shown evidence of being physically attracted to just about every female in the series so far, which is exactly how it should be. For one, they're all attractive, since in fiction every woman is attractive unless being physically unattractive is part of their character, and second, Kyon's as horny a teenage male as the next guy (unless the next guy is Taniguchi).
Well, he seems to make a distinction between finding someone attractive and being attracted to them. He says something along these lines about Mori-san, that he finds her attractive but isn't attracted to her. Whether or not he means it is irrelevant, he acknowledges the distinction exists, which means presumably, there may be cases where this applies.

Though I disagree with your comment about every fictional female being attractive barring unattractiveness as a feature. It may be very common, sure, but writers have been offering up women of every appearance, from AA+ to F (lol Taniguchi) for centuries, even in Fantasy and Science Fiction.

That being said, I do sympathize with the man. It has to take some serious resolve to keep on the straight and narrow when, for instance, a beauty like Tsuruya offers to bathe with him. I also can't sympathize with him because that's a problem a lot of people would like to have with any of the Melancholy girls.
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Old 2009-10-22, 13:30   Link #824
Kaisos Erranon
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People are taking things Kyon says at face value again.

It's useful to look at what he actually does rather than what he says... probably the best example of what I'm talking about is how absolutely NUTS he goes in Disappearance when he finds out that Haruhi still exists.

He explodes at Taniguchi and then runs out of the room to go find her before his rationality can kick in.

That's how strongly he feels.
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Old 2009-10-22, 13:38   Link #825
Ricky Controversy
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
People are taking things Kyon says at face value again.

It's useful to look at what he actually does rather than what he says... probably the best example of what I'm talking about is how absolutely NUTS he goes in Disappearance when he finds out that Haruhi still exists.

He explodes at Taniguchi and then runs out of the room to go find her before his rationality can kick in.

That's how strongly he feels.
No, not so. I think his actions are subject to different interpretation. You say his actions are motivated by feelings for Haruhi, I say it's about trying to rectify the situation. He's pretty much desperate the whole way through and tries to find some relief from his classmates, then Mikuru, then Yuki, and finds none. This leaves him only with Haruhi and Itsuki that he thinks could possibly help him sort things out.

His words, however, can be taken into account when they're consistent with his actions, so they may be helpful as elaboration from time to time.
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Old 2009-10-22, 13:50   Link #826
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And then I will point you to the ending... where he wakes up in the hospital, and is immediately disappointed Haruhi isn't there...
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Old 2009-10-22, 14:06   Link #827
Ricky Controversy
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And then I will point you to the ending... where he wakes up in the hospital, and is immediately disappointed Haruhi isn't there...
And I could say he was looking to be sure everything was the way it was supposed to be, since Haruhi is the defining point of his world--literally, being the god of it. Only by seeing her could he absolutely confirm everything was back in its rightful place. In the same way that, despite there being a Haruhi, Itsuki and Mikuru in the Disappearance world, Kyon always associates that world with the Yuki in it, he will always associate the crazy world of supernatural phenomena that is the 'real' world with Haruhi.

Or I could direct you to the scene shortly following, where he's anticipating Yuki's arrival, and then proceeds to blackmail a data-god for her sake to provide a counterpoint about how strongly he feels about her. This is what I'm saying, there are multiple angles to everything. All I'm trying to do is lay out some possibilities by playing devil's advocate and maybe bring more people to the joyful position of neutrality where they can appreciate all the various possibilities.
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Old 2009-10-22, 14:12   Link #828
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Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy View Post
And I would say he was looking to be sure everything was the way it was supposed to be, since Haruhi is the defining point of his world--literally, being the god of it. Or I could direct you to the scene shortly following, where he's anticipating Yuki's arrival, and then proceeds to blackmail a data-god for her sake.
Oh, I'm not saying he doesn't care about Yuki; that scene is his personal crowning moment of badass after all.

I'm just saying he really, really wanted Haruhi back. Not just his world, he wanted that too, obviously, but he really wanted Haruhi back.

Like I said, he almost enacted physical violence on Taniguchi. It takes a lot to drive Kyon into a state like that.

He missed her, deeply.

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Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy View Post
This is what I'm saying, there are multiple angles to everything.
Yes, but I believe that, with Kyon, if you read between the lines, the simplest explanation you'll find is usually the correct one.

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Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy View Post
All I'm trying to do is lay out some possibilities by playing devil's advocate and maybe bring more people to the joyful position of neutrality where they can appreciate all the various possibilities.
Personally, I can't enjoy a story if I do this. I have to be involved emotionally somehow.

Probably not a good thing in a series that relies strongly on pissing off its fanbase, but...
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Old 2009-10-22, 14:30   Link #829
Ricky Controversy
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I guess for me, as much as I enjoy Kyon x Haruhi moments, it always seems like he appreciates the craziness she brings to his life while simultaneously being worn out by it. She gave him back his motivation to do something other than coast through life, and he no doubt values that. I don't think anyone in their right mind would contest that Haruhi has become dear to him: in her are invested many great hopes he'd previously thought dead.

However, I just don't see any implications of his feelings for her being stronger or more romantic than his feelings towards anyone else. Any kind of subtext reading you could apply to his moments with Haruhi also produces the same effects--with a different foundation, sure--when applied to his moments with Yuki.

The simplest answer to me, then, seems that he's amorous about Mikuru, but has a more cultivated, complex and confusing dynamic with both Haruhi and Yuki. Don't get me wrong, I like that ambiguity, because it yields interesting discussions like this that keep our minds flexible, and I get to see your ideas (and I hope you know that just because I'm prodding them for further discussion doesn't necessarily mean I disagree and I certainly respect your opinions since you're clearly using your head). It's also nice because without officially solidified 'shipping' in the canon, neither dynamic derails the other.

I guess I just see them as being at roughly equal points, even if Haruhi gets an exposure bonus for being more emotional than Yuki.


Edit: Also, I get what you're saying about emotional investment. I really do. All that really comes down to is personal reading style, though. I'm diagnosed Obsessive Compulsive, and I have a tendency to worry myself into the ground if I have an indication that I've overlooked something. I'm the kind of guy who beats himself up aggressively when he misses a detail. That being said, it's not so much that I'm apathetic to the romance of the story, rather that I try to enjoy every part that is well presented. So if, for instance, there's something really moving along Haruhi x Kyon lines, I'm a Haruhi x Kyon fan in that moment. If there's something like that in a Yuki x Kyon moment, I become a Yuki x Kyon fan. Kyon and Itsuki had an argument towards the end of book six that was just fascinating to me, and I wanted to see them argue more. Tsuruya mind-screws poor Kyon with her off-hand come-ons, and suddenly I'm wondering what it would be like if she meant the things she said.
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Old 2009-10-22, 16:59   Link #830
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Tsuruya was a bit odd at that time for me, I didn't know if she meant it or not, but I was like "THIS ISN'T MAH LOL FANG-TAN."
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Old 2009-10-22, 17:09   Link #831
quigonkenny
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Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy View Post
Tsuruya mind-screws poor Kyon with her off-hand come-ons, and suddenly I'm wondering what it would be like if she meant the things she said.
Who says she doesn't? For someone so admittedly interested in sitting on the sideline and watching the show, you would think she'd be quite intrigued by the man in the middle of it all. There's flirting and then there's flirting.
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Old 2009-10-22, 17:19   Link #832
Ricky Controversy
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Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
Who says she doesn't? For someone so admittedly interested in sitting on the sideline and watching the show, you would think she'd be quite intrigued by the man in the middle of it all. There's flirting and then there's flirting.
Indeed. I was using "if" there in the inclusive, rather than exclusive sense. I agree with you wholeheartedly: the sheer audacity of her passes and casual reaction to Kyon's sidestepping imply that she's only going that far because she knows he won't accept, but it raises the issue that at the least, the ideas are coming to her, or perhaps she's making use of 'refuge in audacity' to make light of her actually being interested in him. Tsuruya strikes me as the type whose humor is probably 90% liveliness and 10% coping mechanism. If that's the case, then her comically exaggerated flirtation is an outlet for the self-denial that is necessary to maintaining the status quo.

I'll say this: from what we have seen of Tsuruya--and it's not enough, in my mind--I can see Kyon falling for her pretty hard if they spent more time together, and I can see that being a very interesting dynamic. It would be nice of Tsuruya was explored in some greater depth, but something tells me this will be one of those series that ends with a lot of fans picking up the torch of whatever they enjoyed most since only the central arc of the story will be tied off.
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Old 2009-10-22, 22:38   Link #833
quigonkenny
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Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy View Post
I'll say this: from what we have seen of Tsuruya--and it's not enough, in my mind--I can see Kyon falling for her pretty hard if they spent more time together, and I can see that being a very interesting dynamic. It would be nice of Tsuruya was explored in some greater depth, but something tells me this will be one of those series that ends with a lot of fans picking up the torch of whatever they enjoyed most since only the central arc of the story will be tied off.
Don't know if you've read Volume 7 (you'd think it'd be safe to assume that in the spoiler thread, but I know of at least one consistent poster who hasn't), but after that story it's apparent that she'll have an important part in at least one later story.
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Old 2009-10-22, 23:02   Link #834
Ricky Controversy
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Don't know if you've read Volume 7 (you'd think it'd be safe to assume that in the spoiler thread, but I know of at least one consistent poster who hasn't), but after that story it's apparent that she'll have an important part in at least one later story.
Yeah, I've read one through nine, and I'm looking forward to her expanded role, but I'm cautiously optimistic as to the extent this will lead to development of her relation to Kyon.
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Old 2009-10-23, 02:13   Link #835
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Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane
... Kyon/Kimidori FTW!



He has a thing for ballon animals?
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Old 2009-10-23, 10:27   Link #836
Kogetsu Shirogane
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Eh... sure... makes him look bad, so I'm cool with it.
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... that's... not a doughnut...
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Old 2009-10-23, 10:41   Link #837
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lol, what do you have against Kyon? :P
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Old 2009-10-23, 11:16   Link #838
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His actions in the "Yukiverse" from Disappearance, mostly.
If that isn't enough, consider how he treats people:
  • Constantly puts down anything Haruhi says.
  • Basically ignores Nagato most of the time.
  • Pretty much only treats Mikuru nicely because he thinks she's hot.
  • Treats Koizumi like garbage. (This one may or may not be deserved...)
  • Has an unusual tendency to blow off T&K whenever even the slightest excuse comes up.
About the only person he's in regular contact with that he isn't some sort of jerk to is Tsuruya.
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Old 2009-10-23, 11:35   Link #839
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
His actions in the "Yukiverse" from Disappearance, mostly.
If that isn't enough, consider how he treats people:
  • Constantly puts down anything Haruhi says.
  • Basically ignores Nagato most of the time.
  • Pretty much only treats Mikuru nicely because he thinks she's hot.
  • Treats Koizumi like garbage. (This one may or may not be deserved...)
  • Has an unusual tendency to blow off T&K whenever even the slightest excuse comes up.
About the only person he's in regular contact with that he isn't some sort of jerk to is Tsuruya.
Hmmm, what exactly at Disappearance? About the other points, he put down anything Haruhi says because most of it is pure nonsense. Also, he did help her with anything regardless what he says. And why do you thing he ignores Nagato? He is the only one who don't do that!

I am unable to disagree about the other points, tough. Specially about T&K, he really should be nicier to them. I believe you exagerate a bit, tough. He is not that rude. While I don't agree with how Kyon treat them, I understand why Koizumi and Taniguchi annoy him.

(I completely agree about Mikuru, tough. I don't believe this is that bad, however.)
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Old 2009-10-23, 11:40   Link #840
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
His actions in the "Yukiverse" from Disappearance, mostly.
If that isn't enough, consider how he treats people:
  • Constantly puts down anything Haruhi says.
  • Basically ignores Nagato most of the time.
  • Pretty much only treats Mikuru nicely because he thinks she's hot.
  • Treats Koizumi like garbage. (This one may or may not be deserved...)
  • Has an unusual tendency to blow off T&K whenever even the slightest excuse comes up.
About the only person he's in regular contact with that he isn't some sort of jerk to is Tsuruya.
This may stir some controversy, but I basically agree with all of this except the Mikuru point. Sighs gave me the impression that Kyon cares about Mikuru for more reason than just her looks. I think that her personality is largely appealing to him, and is a part of the reason (probably the smaller part of the reason in fairness) for how he's nice towards her.

Also... Kyon's treatment of Haruhi is one of my big issues with KyonHaruhi as a romance, honestly.

I disagree with Heatth here; a lot of what Kyon complains about isn't that big of a deal - it's not "pure nonsense". Like in the making of Haruhi's movie... Kyon griped over every signal little creative decision Haruhi made. Not all of Haruhi's creative decisions were pure nonsense. Some of them were fine, and not worth complaining over (such as making Yuki a witch with a cat familiar - kind of makes sense given what Yuki was wearing for a completely unrelated school event).

Kyon really needs to loosen up on Haruhi, and let some of her eccentricity slide more often. It's not always as big a deal as he makes it out to be, imo.


Just to be clear, I don't think that Kyon is a bad guy, but he's too anal retentive. He really needs to learn to unclench sometimes...
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