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Old 2009-10-23, 08:03   Link #81
Nogitsune
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Join Date: Sep 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
Hey, if a bear sees you in the woods it will eat you up alive, they don't even bother killing you first...I remember this story on Ripley's about a hunter who had his skull crunched by a bear while playing dead
Well, if he hunted for fun... his risk.
And again, animals are moral patients, not agents. ;P

Quote:
This, however, is a very soft spot; human beings are very robust and have great endurance, despite common belief of being fragile and weak. They can survive for months with just water, salt and one meal every four days of work, but just because they can doesn't mean they have to, in modern society such treatment is cruel (unless religion is involved, but let's not go there yet again ). I could be a hardcore vegetarian, I've fasted a few times in my life and it's not as tragic as some might think, but having meat again later felt very nice.
Usually, though, it's trivial pleasures against vital interests when it comes to meat. I might enjoy tripping a granny down the stairs, but I can live without it, and I choose to do so for a reason.
If someone else chooses they don't want to live without it, I have every right to frown upon this choice.

Quote:
Anyway, to each their own, as long as they understand and respect each other's pov, there shouldn't be any problems.
Hm... "respect" is relative.
Let's say in general, I tolerate the eating of meat, mostly because I can't just abolish it over night. xD
And I respect the person behind the opinion, of course. Well... in most cases.
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Old 2009-10-23, 08:16   Link #82
-KarumA-
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
This is why I think religion can be dangerous.
However, just because a fanatic tells me killing women who commit adultery is all right, I don't have to respect their opinion. And actually, I don't think Germany, for example, is ruled by religion anymore. If anything, it's some Christian values that remain.
No not ruled by it anymore, I live in the neighboring country and actually 10 minutes from the German border
What I meant by it is that even though there is not a bible swinging Christian at the top as soon as there are things said that is about religion and it being bad, specially if it is a high ranked person saying this he will raged by the population that believes that Christ is the savior
The influence of Rome is still pretty large at scale here in Europe, remember that
If the pope in Italy says that the people there are not allowed to eat meat then they will do it
If a random person yells at the people to do this then they will proclaim him a fool cause it has always been this way since the old days
If that person then yells they should stop eating meat because we are all equal and the bible is wrong he will get stones thrown at his head

Religion is not always in sight but it is everywhere and it influences every little decision a government or person can make
It isn't just the bible and God and all that stuff it is what you believe and your own morals

The thing is people have always been eating meat and it has always been part of civilization, it is part of who we as a people are
The only thing that has changed is the way the animals have been killed, instead of spear and rock we now use factory methods (but also some good methods that make sure the animal hasn't been cramped in a space all its life)
It is hard to get rid of a pre-programmed lifestyle that has been around for millions of years, specially in regions where eating meat is a daily and cultural activity. Cooking meals is a family thing in Italy, it is tradition to have meat added and tradition to make meat as well. Meat is part of religion is some cultures like the sacrificing of a lamb and eating its meat

However among current people religion and tradition have been thrown out of the window and people do what they want and forget about culture and history
We respect that as a new generation, but don't expect the older ones who have never dealt with anyone refusing what they believe as tradition to accept and respect that
As a new generation we care little of what you eat and don't eat, however start swinging that vegan burger as a bible and a vast majority will stand strong for cultural beliefs and tradition

I don't see eating meat as a bad thing, as long as you respect the animal
But I don't think you can judge a person eating meat because to be honest you are the newb in a vast world of tradition and religion, some people don't know how to deal with a newb but if he starts spamming we all know what the admin will do

I don't mean anything bad with this post though, it is merely random ranting
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Old 2009-10-23, 08:23   Link #83
Nogitsune
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I see your point, however, I never said I expected anything - just that I believe that regardless of tradition and religion, some things are right and others are not.
Also...

Quote:
Originally Posted by -KarumA- View Post
I don't see eating meat as a bad thing, as long as you respect the animal
Well, I could say the same about ending the life of a human being. I don't think they would care if I respected them if I killed them either way, though.

Quote:
But I don't think you can judge a person eating meat because to be honest you are the newb in a vast world of tradition and religion, some people don't know how to deal with a newb but if he starts spamming we all know what the admin will do
There's a difference between having to fear consequences and having no right to judge someone.
Slavery and racial discrimination have a very long "tradition". Does that mean I can't frown upon those who insist to keep them around?
I don't think so.

Quote:
I don't mean anything bad with this post though, it is merely random ranting
Ah, never took it personally. xD
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Old 2009-10-23, 08:53   Link #84
ChainLegacy
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If you think eating meat is 'morally' wrong you might want to examine the root of said morality in the first place. If you consider how venerated the animals hunter-gatherers killed for food were (example the bison by many Native American tribes) you would have trouble thinking of it as murder, or at least I do anyways.

Personally, I follow a paleolithic-inspired dietary regime for health reasons, so I eat some form of dead animal with every meal. I love the taste and my favorite meat is probably American Bison, but Crocodile was very good as well (only had it once). I also eat a lot of seafood (depends on how you define 'meat' to include that) which is oftentimes the healthiest food nature has to offer (look up the nutritional content in a can of sardines, now that's a bargain for the price). I also try to buy grass-fed/free-range/local/organic meats as often as possible, people aren't exagerrating when they say it tastes better; it really does (and the nutritional content also changes, for example grass-fed beef has far higher omega-3 fatty acid content than grain-fed, as well as higher protein).

And since I also love cooking my own meals, the meat I eat is always fresh and in better condition than pre-made meat items you might buy.
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Old 2009-10-23, 09:07   Link #85
Nogitsune
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
If you think eating meat is 'morally' wrong you might want to examine the root of said morality in the first place. If you consider how venerated the animals hunter-gatherers killed for food were (example the bison by many Native American tribes) you would have trouble thinking of it as murder, or at least I do anyways.
As I said, it's different if it's a vital interest against a vital interest. It might still be morally incorrect, but sometimes, you just don't have the luxury of taking that into account.
However, that was back then. In some cultures, it might be necessary to leave the weak and elderly to rot. However, the moment it's not about survival anymore, it becomes a different matter.
Also, murder is generally committed in cold-blood and without the need to preserve one's own life.
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Old 2009-10-23, 09:07   Link #86
Ansalem
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
I'm not talking about cannibalism.
It's natural for a wild animal under certain circumstances to kill its child if it is weak, and here and there, it used to be for humans. It's natural for humans to be selfish and greedy, so why not ruthlessly conquer and suppress others?
Saying something is natural is not a valid argument. And if killing an animal is all right because it is less intelligent, then the same could be said for an infant.
If you're not talking about cannibalism, you are ignoring my point that killing animals for consumption is what is morally acceptable. Human construction destroys animal habitats and results in the death of animals. Do you live in outdoors with no structure? Mass production of grain kills animals. Do you only eat food you have grown yourself to ensure no animals were killed in its harvest? The only reason that people are able to find all the protein needed without killing animals is because of the modern facilities and roadways we have to facilitate the gathering and distribution of nuts and other non-meats, which has had great impact on the world and in turn animals. Everywhere in the world does not have sufficient alternative sources of these nutrients to provide a healthy diet if we we back to zero impact living, and people would be forced to eat meat. Quite the conundrum. It is impossible for all the people of the world to live in a way that does not kill animals. Your argument that naturalness has no place in deciding what is wrong or right is misguided. Things that come naturally to us form the basis of our reasoning. It requires interpretation, that is true. It is not simply intelligence that separates animals from humans. We are undeniably a different kind of being, and it is this difference of consciousness that allows us to understand that there is a difference in capricious violence against our own kind or animals, and justifiable killing in gaining foodstuff, just as it allows you to understand that not only do animals need food, but they lack the ability to understand that it is justifiable to kill for that food.

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I also have a biological imperative to desire to have children... oh, wait. I lack that.
Well, you're only 19 and many people find the desire to procreate later in life. You won't necessarily, for we have evolved beyond acting solely on instincts. However, just as you can understand that it is not necessary for you own being to do a certain action, that it does necessarily make that action wrong, whether it be procreating or eating meat for sustenance.

Quote:
Whites are not blacks, men are not women. So what?
This is true, but they are all humans, which as I have already stated are not for my consumption. This is a false equivocation.



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Why not?
If it's fun, and the animal has no rights, why shouldn't I poke it in the eye a bit, or do whatever else I want to to it?
I think you're missing the point.
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Old 2009-10-23, 09:26   Link #87
Nogitsune
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ansalem View Post
If you're not talking about cannibalism, you are ignoring my point that killing animals for consumption is what is morally acceptable. Human construction destroys animal habitats and results in the death of animals. Do you live in outdoors with no structure?
Having a roof over your head can be essential to survival.
And even if that wasn't the case, it can be considered "making life worth living".
Our lifestyle is often harmful to people in poorer countries. Does that mean they shouldn't have rights at all, since we can never do them justice?

Quote:
Mass production of grain kills animals. Do you only eat food you have grown yourself to ensure no animals were killed in its harvest?
More animals die (and suffer) for meat production for the same reason meat is more expensive.
But yes, I consider growing most of my food myself one day. At the moment, that's hardly possible, though.

Quote:
The only reason that people are able to find all the protein needed without killing animals is because of the modern facilities and roadways we have to facilitate the gathering and distribution of nuts and other non-meats, which has had great impact on the world and in turn animals. Everywhere in the world does not have sufficient alternative sources of these nutrients to provide a healthy diet if we we back to zero impact living, and people would be forced to eat meat. Quite the conundrum. It is impossible for all the people of the world to live in a way that does not kill animals.
It's also impossible for me to live without harming a single other human being. I will still try not to cause more harm than necessary.

Quote:
Your argument that naturalness has no place in deciding what is wrong or right is misguided.
"Naturalness" can't be the sole argument, because it would indeed be a pure matter of interpretation.
Unless you can point out a morally relevant difference between a human and an animal possessing a central nervous system, my point stands.

Quote:
We are undeniably a different kind of being,
There was a time whites would have said that about blacks.
Yes, we are a different species. That doesn't mean we should cause harm to non-human animals where it can be easily avoided.

Quote:
Well, you're only 19 and many people find the desire to procreate later in life. You won't necessarily, for we have evolved beyond acting solely on instincts.
Ah, I'm asexual, so at least I probably won't feel the desire ro reproduce. xD

Quote:
However, just as you can understand that it is not necessary for you own being to do a certain action, that it does necessarily make that action wrong, whether it be procreating or eating meat for sustenance.
Not necessarily, no.
But some actions harm others, and others don't.

Quote:
This is true, but they are all humans, which as I have already stated are not for my consumption. This is a false equivocation.
You might enjoy eating meat. Someone else might enjoy robbing their neighbour. It's about a morally relevant difference between an animal and a human being, not about what you gain from killing them.

Quote:
I think you're missing the point.
Ah, I don't think so.
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Old 2009-10-23, 09:32   Link #88
Kusa-San
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Originally Posted by Zaseka View Post
You should try horse meat, it's a lot like beef, just tastier and with less fat! And duck yum yum, especially if its crusty/crunchy. (
I don't agree. Horse meat has not the same taste as beef meat at all. But it's true that's less calorie

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karuma


Religion is not always in sight but it is everywhere and it influences every little decision a government or person can
Not true at all. Atheist don't care about religion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune
Animals do a lot of things we consider morally wrong. They lack the ability to reason morally. They are what is known as a moral patient, while a healthy human adult is a moral agent.
Also, we can survive without eating meat, while a carnivore can't.
Killing for eating is not morally wrong. It's the life cycle which is natural . By saying it's wrong, you're saying that the life cycle is wrong. Futhermore, by killing other animal you protect the life cycle and so you protect the ecosysteme and so you protect your eath so it can't be morally wrong.

By the way, human are animal so we're just like any other animal in this aspect : we eat other animal for surviving.

And futhermore, you're saying that killing animal is bad but when you're vegetarian you're killing life too even if it's not in the same form but for you it's not something wrong ?
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Old 2009-10-23, 09:35   Link #89
Ansalem
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Unless you can point out a morally relevant difference between a human and an animal possessing a central nervous system, my point stands.
It's about a morally relevant difference between an animal and a human being, not about what you gain from killing them.
Simply having a nervous system doesn't make humans and animals the same. Similarly, animals and plants are both living beings, but they are not the same. It is the difference in our consciousness that separates animals from plants, and humans from either.
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Old 2009-10-23, 09:36   Link #90
ChainLegacy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
As I said, it's different if it's a vital interest against a vital interest. It might still be morally incorrect, but sometimes, you just don't have the luxury of taking that into account.
However, that was back then. In some cultures, it might be necessary to leave the weak and elderly to rot. However, the moment it's not about survival anymore, it becomes a different matter.
Also, murder is generally committed in cold-blood and without the need to preserve one's own life.
I believe morals do not exist. They are temporary, shifting belief systems fabricated by the individual through a variety of sources, notably culture. You cannot explain using logic how killing an animal is 'wrong.'
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Old 2009-10-23, 09:47   Link #91
Miko Miko
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I LOOOOVE Meat!!!!

Chicken FTW!
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Old 2009-10-23, 09:49   Link #92
-KarumA-
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
There's a difference between having to fear consequences and having no right to judge someone.
Slavery and racial discrimination have a very long "tradition". Does that mean I can't frown upon those who insist to keep them around?
I don't think so.
Of course you can frown, that is the beauty of today's modern world, you can have an opinion and not be hanged for it
Slavery and discrimination is another factor influenced by religion, because white over rules black in some patterns (I don't agree let me make that clear, do NOT call em a racist I am merely pointing out things from another person's view back in those days)
However back then when you'd raise your eyebrow you'd be killed or judged for being one of them
this is why you cannot compare that situation to being a vegetarian or not, you do not get killed for being a vegetarian in this modern world because the generation that lives now has learned to accept each other and accept each others beliefs
Remember that it took several wars before people realized as a majority that slavery was bad and it costs millions of lives before they said that it was forbid
same goes with racism

Modern age is not comparable with history, however the generation of that time is still living and right now we are at a border crossing point, the old generation is slowly passing away and makes room for the generation that is now in which people are more curious or rather much do not care what another person does
There will always be judgmental people, that is for everything you can think of, you get judged every day not just for being a vegetarian or a meat eater it is when you look beyond these parts and understand why a person does something that you might learn to live with them and not think of them as being bad

The difference between then and now is that you do not get killed that quickly for being something (well in some countries you do ofc we all know that but again religious factor, ding ding XD)
And only if vegetarians starts a civil war would eating meat be completely forbidden but I don't see that happening any time soon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kusa-San View Post
Not true at all. Atheist don't care about religion.
You didn't read the other line, religion isn't only about believing in a God or heaven/hell
you can believe and throw that damn bible out the window and think that the afterlife will be nothing
It is about morals and values, for example if yuo think black is equal to white that is what you believe
In your own belief all of men is equal
that is what I call religion, not what a book says but how you life your daily life and how you view others and yourself
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Old 2009-10-23, 09:52   Link #93
Ansalem
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Originally Posted by Miko Miko View Post
I LOOOOVE Meat!!!!

Chicken FTW!
I'm a little surprised at the amount of people who have said chicken is their favorite meat in this thread. I would have suspected beef to be the most common preference. From Mediterranean food, I'd probably say lamb is probably my favorite, but I don't get to eat it too much. Although I haven't gotten a chance to try delicacies like snake.
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Old 2009-10-23, 10:43   Link #94
Nogitsune
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kusa-San View Post
Killing for eating is not morally wrong.
If it's not for survival, then yes, I think it certainly is.

Quote:
It's the life cycle which is natural . By saying it's wrong, you're saying that the life cycle is wrong.
Breeding animals for the sole purpose of killing them doesn't have much to do with the "cycle of life" (Simba would agree! xD).

Quote:
Futhermore, by killing other animal you protect the life cycle and so you protect the ecosysteme and so you protect your eath so it can't be morally wrong.
The world's ecosystem is just fine without animal husbandry. In fact, it would be more than fine.

Quote:
By the way, human are animal so we're just like any other animal in this aspect : we eat other animal for surviving.
Not for survival, no.
Except for very few cases, it's all for pleasure.

Quote:
And futhermore, you're saying that killing animal is bad but when you're vegetarian you're killing life too even if it's not in the same form but for you it's not something wrong ?
No, because the probability that plants suffer to the same extent an animal with a central nervous system does is very, very small. Actually, they might very well not be able to feel pain at all - that's why there is no such thing as plant abuse.
Since I have to kill something to survive, I'll choose the one that suffers least.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ansalem View Post
Simply having a nervous system doesn't make humans and animals the same.
When it comes to the ability to feel pain and experience suffering - yes, it does.
Therefore, not having one would be a morally relevant difference.


Quote:
Originally Posted by -KarumA- View Post
Of course you can frown, that is the beauty of today's modern world, you can have an opinion and not be hanged for it
*nods her head*
Well, people might still look at me strangely, but... that's all right!

Quote:
Slavery and discrimination is another factor influenced by religion, because white over rules black in some patterns (I don't agree let me make that clear, do NOT call em a racist I am merely pointing out things from another person's view back in those days)
Hm, actually, slavery was very much around even before Christianity.

Quote:
Remember that it took several wars before people realized as a majority that slavery was bad and it costs millions of lives before they said that it was forbid
same goes with racism
Which is why I don't expect the world to change over night.

Quote:
There will always be judgmental people, that is for everything you can think of, you get judged every day not just for being a vegetarian or a meat eater it is when you look beyond these parts and understand why a person does something that you might learn to live with them and not think of them as being bad
I don't think people who eat meat are evil. I think they have some unwarranted, harmful beliefs and act according to them.
Actually, I'm not a very judgmental person, and I certainly don't see the world in black and white.

Quote:
And only if vegetarians starts a civil war would eating meat be completely forbidden but I don't see that happening any time soon
Ah, only time will tell how this movement will develop.
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Last edited by Nogitsune; 2009-10-23 at 10:54.
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Old 2009-10-23, 11:11   Link #95
Shadow Kira01
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I eat all sort of seafoods with very few exceptions, chicken, duck, turkey, beef, pork, and that's about it.
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Old 2009-10-23, 11:24   Link #96
K_Babyy
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Join Date: Oct 2009
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I respect a person's choice to be vegan, but I could never do it myself. I love meat, couldn't imagine life without it. ;] Chicken and steak are my favorites.
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Old 2009-10-23, 11:30   Link #97
Anisha93
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i am eggetarian.
i don't know wether people who eat eggs are veg or non-veg.
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Old 2009-10-23, 11:46   Link #98
-KarumA-
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Originally Posted by Anisha93 View Post
i am eggetarian.
i don't know wether people who eat eggs are veg or non-veg.
you have different kinds of vegetarians
vegans eat nothing of an animal, no cheese no eggs nothing that comes from an animal
A classmate of mine is vegan, he doesn't even wear shoes made of leather or any kind of animal

here's a nice link about the different kinds of vegetarians =)
http://vegetarian.about.com/od/veget...TypesofVeg.htm

edit:
and yes I know it isn't just from Christianity, the religion that stole a whole lot of things from older religions =)
it is religion as a mass, not just Christianity
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Old 2009-10-23, 11:52   Link #99
Jaden
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I eat meat, though I'm trying my best to treat it as a luxury thing rather than junk food. That's the future anyway, with people and goverments awakening to an ecological world view.
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Old 2009-10-23, 11:59   Link #100
HayashiTakara
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If Vegans were a species of cow I'd eat em'

eating meat is built into every human dna since the dawn of man, denying that is an atrocity to nature itself. It's like having a lion choose cherry gelatin over a gazelle.
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