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View Poll Results: Macross Frontier - Episode 25 Rating
Perfect 10 133 39.82%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 81 24.25%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 32 9.58%
7 out of 10 : Good 27 8.08%
6 out of 10 : Average 11 3.29%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 10 2.99%
4 out of 10 : Poor 4 1.20%
3 out of 10 : Bad 3 0.90%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 0.30%
1 out of 10 : Painful 32 9.58%
Voters: 334. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-10-26, 03:33   Link #1561
magnuskn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
No, I'm not talking about you.

I don't recall you screaming that you wanted Ranka dead. I don't recall you throwing insults at people who disagreed with you. I don't recall you saying things like, "If you knew ANYTHING about ANYTHING, you would KNOW that he'll pick Sheryl!" I don't recall you accusing other members of trying to make you look bad by quoting your own words back at you. I don't recall you posting SOLELY variations on "Sheryl = good / Ranka = bad."

These are all dickish things to do. I don't believe you did any of them; my recollection is that you usually handled yourself with dignity and decorum. If my memory is faulty in that regard, just let me know.
I could redact my posts to be more of a thug, if you'd like that.

But I found quite a lot of the reactions of some people over on MW ( like, the guys I mentioned above ) to be in bad taste, too. So it's not just the "Sheryl side", so to say.
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Old 2009-10-26, 08:02   Link #1562
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
I could redact my posts to be more of a thug, if you'd like that.
I'd rather you didn't, if it's all the same to you.

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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
But I found quite a lot of the reactions of some people over on MW ( like, the guys I mentioned above ) to be in bad taste, too. So it's not just the "Sheryl side", so to say.
Which is why I said that there were dicks on both sides. And which is why I was quite pleased with the ending.
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Old 2009-10-26, 09:48   Link #1563
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Which is why I said that there were dicks on both sides. And which is why I was quite pleased with the ending.
I'd rather had an ending which made *sense*, in the context of prior episodes.
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Old 2009-10-26, 10:12   Link #1564
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Well, to be fair, the ending did make sense with what was previously shown. Namely, an Alto who can't quite commit to any one thing, and still be true to his own feelings (which he doesn't even understand, half of the time).

Not saying I like it, but it does make some sense.
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Old 2009-10-26, 11:27   Link #1565
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@Yot: In terms of the Sheryl fanbase having more brutal responses than the Ranka-fanbase who were quieter...
I think it's more because the Sheryl base had more to lose, more to be shocked about, and more to be angry or at the very least annoyed about when the harem troll occurred which is probably why they come off a lot more aggressively than the Ranka base. I don't think it's very fair to think the Ranka base has less dicks simply because they didn't say very much, seeing as...they didn't really need to?

The finale was made in a way that anyone in support of the Ranka movement were bracing for a losing situation. Sure it would have been nice if Ranka suddenly came out with a hack card in her deck but if she lost it's really not too surprising seeing as Sheryl is already living with Alto for whatever reason they can handle. Also, Ranka losing the Alto-affections battle wasn't as bad as Sheryl losing it since she still has Burera to cushion to blow as well as a giant mob of blindly praising/supporting friends (I have a theory that people die or are prone to death when they say/do harmful/hurtful things about Ranka. It's like Yoko's death kiss, we should all watch out.) Whereas if it were Sheryl, the losses she suffered throughout the show would have...absolutely no silver lining X'D

In the end the Ranka fans weren't trolled as hard as the Sheryl fans. In fact the harem ending was GOOD for Ranka fans cause they have far less physical content to argue for her due to the Sheryl blitzing as the show neared the end. If anyone from the opposing ship shoots at them, they now have a very powerful weapon in negating all Sheryl-fanbase attacks XD (aka the "no conclusion ending" barrier.)

@Beto: Rather than sense, doesn't that just mean Alto didn't change very much :'D;;;;
I suppose if "Expected" means "sense" then I can agree, but on the usual anime line of thinking, a story should really exist if it intends to change from point A to point B, otherwise there simply wasn't very much point in telling the story in the first place X'D

Under that assumption, there really wasn't much "sense" in making Alto continue to waver, especially now when we know he is aware of the whole triangular situation, AND Mikhail had to die as a testament to what happens to a wavering coward.


DOn't get me wrong though, cause now on hindsight I am kind of okay with the harem ending. Without it the movie wouldn't be quite as fun to wait for XDDDDDDDD
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Old 2009-10-26, 11:55   Link #1566
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@Beto: Rather than sense, doesn't that just mean Alto didn't change very much :'D;;;;
That's pretty much why I don't like the conclusion I ended up drawing, as his progress (what little there was, granted) was actually one of the high points of the show, for me.
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Old 2009-10-26, 12:40   Link #1567
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Why won't Ranka fans be quieter?? Ranka just obtained godly status in the last episode by resurrecting Sheryl and still managed to be Alto's damsel in distress. Ranka fans love that. Everytime Alto tears his lungs out screaming her name and rams his Valkyrie to get to where she is. Hoo boy do they loveee that. Because she can't save herself (but can save others) and relies on Alto to save her and Alto the idiot always does so with passion. I used to observe how loud Nakamura Yuuichi can belt out "Rankaaa" everytime he does so. I think the loudest record I've seen was in episode 21. Then 24 or 25 is a tie. I think. Need to rewatch again.
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Old 2009-10-26, 14:31   Link #1568
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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
I don't know what YHBT means, but I'm merely speaking from observation.
YHBT stands for "You have been trolled." That isn't to say that the ending actually was a troll; but some people like to think that they were in on the joke.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
At the nonresolution of the love triangle, the Ranka Haters I saw yelled the loudest, raged the hardest, and came up with the most amount of asinine theories to "prove" that either the love triangle actually WAS resolved, or that the ending was changed at the very last minute.

Ranka fans seemed to be quieter about the whole thing.
The thing is, though, the ending of the love triangle has nothing to do with whether or not you appreciate Ranka's character. As Foreshadow pointed out, you run the risk of stereotyping people based off of their character preferences if you try and relate the two.

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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
And those of us who were just sick and tired of the incessant "Who will Alto choose?" chatter were rather satisfied.
But is that really satisfaction? While I can see the momentary pleasure in getting even with the guy who stole your metaphorical lunch money, was that the reason that you started watching the series? Or was it for the story, which, as you noted, was rushed?

The people whom you see fighting over shipping aren't all that different. While they're initially drawn to the series for what it is, the arguments eventually become less about the characters themselves and more about individual egos. At that point, it's not that you want to see Sheryl or Ranka have a happy ending, but rather that you want to win "your" ship and beat the other guy.

Enjoyment had at someone's expense is usually bitter at best.

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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
Pure dickishness (and there were real dicks on both sides, but (again, in my observation) there were more Sheryl dicks than Ranka dicks...so much so that it affected my love of Sheryl a bit) should be punished, not rewarded, no?
I think that such people tend to punish themselves, regardless of what the outcome of the story is. There's no point in winning an argument at the cost of missing the enjoyment in the series itself.

Just let it slide.
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Old 2009-10-26, 14:35   Link #1569
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Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
Well, to be fair, the ending did make sense with what was previously shown. Namely, an Alto who can't quite commit to any one thing, and still be true to his own feelings (which he doesn't even understand, half of the time).

Not saying I like it, but it does make some sense.
Well, Ippus already partly said it, but it bears repeating. Altos development at the end of the series was *all about* choosing. Michael died to hammer that point home, and in the end they copped out. And I'd really like to hear a coherent argument as to how he could have chosen Ranka. Because that was not what was happening in the last episodes.

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Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
The people whom you see fighting over shipping aren't all that different. While they're initially drawn to the series for what it is, the arguments eventually become less about the characters themselves and more about individual egos. At that point, it's not that you want to see Sheryl or Ranka have a happy ending, but rather that you want to win "your" ship and beat the other guy.
Now, that is quite a stereotype itself, if I may say so. I love Sheryls character, Altos character and find that they fit very well together, hence I ship them. If I get into arguments with the "other side", it's of course about our preferences, but I dare say that the Sheryl side was armed with better arguments throughout the series.
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Old 2009-10-26, 17:35   Link #1570
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Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
YHBT stands for "You have been trolled." That isn't to say that the ending actually was a troll; but some people like to think that they were in on the joke.
Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
The thing is, though, the ending of the love triangle has nothing to do with whether or not you appreciate Ranka's character. As Foreshadow pointed out, you run the risk of stereotyping people based off of their character preferences if you try and relate the two.
That's true, and it's a pitfall I'm trying to avoid. As I said, this was merely my observation at the time; I'll freely admit that it's not a general rule or guideline.

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Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
But is that really satisfaction? While I can see the momentary pleasure in getting even with the guy who stole your metaphorical lunch money, was that the reason that you started watching the series? Or was it for the story, which, as you noted, was rushed?

The people whom you see fighting over shipping aren't all that different. While they're initially drawn to the series for what it is, the arguments eventually become less about the characters themselves and more about individual egos. At that point, it's not that you want to see Sheryl or Ranka have a happy ending, but rather that you want to win "your" ship and beat the other guy.

Enjoyment had at someone's expense is usually bitter at best.

I think that such people tend to punish themselves, regardless of what the outcome of the story is. There's no point in winning an argument at the cost of missing the enjoyment in the series itself.

Just let it slide.
You raise a very good point, and that's a pitfall that I certainly didn't manage to avoid...letting the fandom affect my perception of the series. It's why I don't really engage with any online discussions of Evangelion with any real depth, because Eva is something very special to me, and I don't really care what haters or casual observers have to say about it.

(Again, the following is only about WHAT I OBSERVED. It is not meant to representative of anyone else, it is not a balanced overview of the situation, and it is certainly not the full picture, and other people can easily come up with circumstantial stories of their own that show the opposite of my experience. This is about what I saw, and how it affected me. It is also probably not referring to most people here, unless there are some I don't know about. So if you just GUESS that I'm talking about you, then I'm not.)

I like Ranka; I love Sheryl. But after getting into conversations that turned into arguments with too many Ranka Haters (which is NOT synonymous with "Sheryl Fans"), I let it get to me...which is a mistake, I know...and it colored my view of the show. I doubt that I'll ever love Sheryl as much as I did initially, just because some of her supporters were so damn obnoxious...not only to me personally, but in other forums where I was not a member. If a group of people give you strawberry ice cream and says, "it's better than vanilla, and you're a fucktard if you don't agree! You don't want to be a fucktard, do you, fucktard?" Well...you're probably not going to be all that thrilled by it, even if you DO like strawberry better. (And no, that didn't happen. But it felt like it sometimes.)

Clearly, the best thing to do would be to ignore the fandom and enjoy the show on its own merits, and maybe someday I'll be able to watch Sheryl without even the remotest thought of idiots browbeating me for NOT accepting that Ranka was like an annoying little gnat in comparison to the GREAT QUEEN SHERYL...but that day is not yet. As such, I find myself hoping that the triangle in the movie version remains just as unresolved, if not even more so.

I've talked to a fair amount of other people who are turned off by the Ranka Hate, so I know I'm not alone. But I can only speak for myself here, though (and maybe it just means that I'm weak, or that my priorities are messed up), when I say that I don't love Sheryl as much as I did.
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Old 2009-10-27, 00:27   Link #1571
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Thank you.


That's true, and it's a pitfall I'm trying to avoid. As I said, this was merely my observation at the time; I'll freely admit that it's not a general rule or guideline.


You raise a very good point, and that's a pitfall that I certainly didn't manage to avoid...letting the fandom affect my perception of the series. It's why I don't really engage with any online discussions of Evangelion with any real depth, because Eva is something very special to me, and I don't really care what haters or casual observers have to say about it.

(Again, the following is only about WHAT I OBSERVED. It is not meant to representative of anyone else, it is not a balanced overview of the situation, and it is certainly not the full picture, and other people can easily come up with circumstantial stories of their own that show the opposite of my experience. This is about what I saw, and how it affected me. It is also probably not referring to most people here, unless there are some I don't know about. So if you just GUESS that I'm talking about you, then I'm not.)

I like Ranka; I love Sheryl. But after getting into conversations that turned into arguments with too many Ranka Haters (which is NOT synonymous with "Sheryl Fans"), I let it get to me...which is a mistake, I know...and it colored my view of the show. I doubt that I'll ever love Sheryl as much as I did initially, just because some of her supporters were so damn obnoxious...not only to me personally, but in other forums where I was not a member. If a group of people give you strawberry ice cream and says, "it's better than vanilla, and you're a fucktard if you don't agree! You don't want to be a fucktard, do you, fucktard?" Well...you're probably not going to be all that thrilled by it, even if you DO like strawberry better. (And no, that didn't happen. But it felt like it sometimes.)

Clearly, the best thing to do would be to ignore the fandom and enjoy the show on its own merits, and maybe someday I'll be able to watch Sheryl without even the remotest thought of idiots browbeating me for NOT accepting that Ranka was like an annoying little gnat in comparison to the GREAT QUEEN SHERYL...but that day is not yet. As such, I find myself hoping that the triangle in the movie version remains just as unresolved, if not even more so.

I've talked to a fair amount of other people who are turned off by the Ranka Hate, so I know I'm not alone. But I can only speak for myself here, though (and maybe it just means that I'm weak, or that my priorities are messed up), when I say that I don't love Sheryl as much as I did.
Your experience is very different from mine, where I was there was a lot of Ranka supporters who were very adamant about their hatred towards Sheryl. Probably the most repeated reasoning they stated as to why they hated her was because "She was stealing Alto away from Ranka". Not only that but they had this little habit of really ignoring any kind of criticism anyone had regarding Ranka's character, and or calling anyone who disliked her a troll regardless of whether or not that liked Sheryl. This was before episode 20 mind you. It was because of this why I ended up rooting for Sheryl, even though I was a Ranka fan. In fact before I came to animesuki and met Dex-kun and so an extent Justavisitor I had yet to meet a reasonable Ranka fan. On the same note after episode 21 though I actually found defending both characters, which pretty much tainted my love for both of them.

I really think they should just resolve the love triangle and be done with it. It really wasn't good for Alto's development, it kinda showed how he is still prone to running away, and therefore hadn't really grown in terms of making hard decisions. Though his not choosing is also what I think ended up causing a little niche of fans to think that Sheryl and Ranka would just be better of with eachother than with Alto who basically left them hanging.
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Old 2009-10-27, 00:31   Link #1572
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As such, I find myself hoping that the triangle in the movie version remains just as unresolved, if not even more so.
If taken at your word, you are wishing heartburn and anguish upon a lot of people, not only the Sheryl side but also the Ranka side. Eh. If that floats your boat, whatever.
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Old 2009-10-27, 00:53   Link #1573
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If taken at your word, you are wishing heartburn and anguish upon a lot of people, not only the Sheryl side but also the Ranka side. Eh. If that floats your boat, whatever.
Let's say Ranka gets Alto in the movie...how would you bear under the tidal wave of smug self-satisfaction and "I told you so" comments that would be sure to come your way? Isn't a little anguish preferable to the outpourings of resentment and "I was right, you were wrong" recriminations?

Seriously, if one girl wins, this site (and a few others) will get TORN TO SHREDS, Frontier videos on Youtube will be inundated by profanity-laden, half-coherent outpourings of triumph and rage (in equal measure), and Crusader of THAT Animeblog will either be knighted or burned at the stake.

Are you SURE you want to take that chance...?
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Old 2009-10-27, 01:06   Link #1574
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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
I really think they should just resolve the love triangle and be done with it. It really wasn't good for Alto's development, it kinda showed how he is still prone to running away, and therefore hadn't really grown in terms of making hard decisions. Though his not choosing is also what I think ended up causing a little niche of fans to think that Sheryl and Ranka would just be better of with eachother than with Alto who basically left them hanging.
Yeah, I really wish they had resolved the whole thing. After getting into my fair share of arguments here at my arrival, I just wanted the LT resolved no matter which of the 2 were chosen. This was the best for Alto's character since not choosing either one just shafted his character development, and the worst is that I felt Michael's death was in vain because of his lack of resolve, such a shame because I do like Alto's character but was disappointed by this fact.

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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
Let's say Ranka gets Alto in the movie...how would you bear under the tidal wave of smug self-satisfaction and "I told you so" comments that would be sure to come your way? Isn't a little anguish preferable to the outpourings of resentment and "I was right, you were wrong" recriminations?

Seriously, if one girl wins, this site (and a few others) will get TORN TO SHREDS, Frontier videos on Youtube will be inundated by profanity-laden, half-coherent outpourings of triumph and rage (in equal measure), and Crusader of THAT Animeblog will either be knighted or burned at the stake.

Are you SURE you want to take that chance...?
You know, this is something that no one would be able to avoid. Personally though, I wouldn't be happy if they forced their relationship in the movie at all, only if it's consistent.
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Old 2009-10-27, 01:45   Link #1575
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Let's say Ranka gets Alto in the movie...how would you bear under the tidal wave of smug self-satisfaction and "I told you so" comments that would be sure to come your way? Isn't a little anguish preferable to the outpourings of resentment and "I was right, you were wrong" recriminations?

Seriously, if one girl wins, this site (and a few others) will get TORN TO SHREDS, Frontier videos on Youtube will be inundated by profanity-laden, half-coherent outpourings of triumph and rage (in equal measure), and Crusader of THAT Animeblog will either be knighted or burned at the stake.

Are you SURE you want to take that chance...?
Oh, so you want the creators to pussy out, because peoples feelings might get hurt? Hey, if we go by that line of thought, no romance anime ever should be resolved. Wow, Vision of Escaflowne surely is hated by so many Allen/Hitomi shippers, isn't it?

N-word, please.

Yeah, I want the creators to resolve that storyline, in a way that makes sense. Building up the last stretch of episodes so that Alto is forced out of his complacency into actually choosing, killing Michael to that effect ( and getting by the problem of how you portray a romance with micronized Klan )... I sure as hell believe that the creators were about to end this epically.

I still don't comprehend how they could think that trashing all that build-up for a wishy-washy "OMG, let's not OFFEND anybody" ending had any artistic integrity. They sacrificed all the storytelling of episodes 19-24 for either a weaksauce harem ending or a gigantic troll. That's not good writing. It simply is not.


As for the movie, it is not the story of the series, just as much as DYRL was not the story of SDFM.

The series was undoubtledly steering towards a Sheryl/Alto ending, there was no *way* they could have ended it on an Alto/Ranka note after the prior episodes, not without making it completely laughable.

If the movie does make Ranka a better character, which the series notably failed to do, and if it builds up a credible romance between Alto and her, I could live with it.

The series seriously dropped the ball on that account after episode 15, and therefore no Alto/Ranka ending should have been possible there. As I said, the movie is another story.

Now, if they choose to treat the movie continuity as the "real" continuity for sequels afterwards, then I'd be pissed.

And, btw. Crusader is a God among us lesser men for his episode summaries.
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Old 2009-10-27, 02:01   Link #1576
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Now, if they choose to treat the movie continuity as the "real" continuity for sequels afterwards, then I'd be pissed.
It might just be that.

Especially with 2nd movie :/

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Old 2009-10-27, 02:18   Link #1577
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It might just be that.

Especially with 2nd movie :/

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I sure as hell hope not. Unless they manage to make the movie "series" better than the actual series. I'm not dogmatic about this, y'know, I just want a good story.

And Sheryl / Alto, unless they make that absolutely unpalatable through the movie story.
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Old 2009-10-27, 02:26   Link #1578
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And Sheryl / Alto, unless they make that absolutely unpalatable through the movie story.
Doubt it.

Thats all I have to say.

The momentum, the polls, and official endorsement are unlikely to endure an instant shift in opinions. It'd be suicidal, really.

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Old 2009-10-27, 02:37   Link #1579
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Doubt it.

Thats all I have to say.

The momentum, the polls, and official endorsement are unlikely to endure an instant shift in opinions. It'd be suicidal, really.

- Tak
To indulge in a moment of unadultered pessimism, if they'd give a hoot about polls and opinions, they'd never have ended the series in the way they did. You can't tell me that they missed who was more popular one year ago.


*edit* BTW, just to drive a point home which I made earlier about the lack of romance between Alto and Ranka, it really strikes me that in the latter part of the series you could very easily substitute Alto into the "protective elder brother" role, without it making any difference from his point of view.

I know that is what actually floats the boat for most Ranka fans here, but for me that is an active turn-off. The "meek, protection-seeking" type of girl simply isn't my thing.
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Old 2009-10-27, 08:16   Link #1580
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Oh, so you want the creators to pussy out, because peoples feelings might get hurt?
I wish you would stop that. First, you accused me of trying to make AnimeSuki "politically correct," now you're saying things like this.

Neither accusation has much to do with what I've been saying.
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