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View Poll Results: Macross Frontier - Episode 25 Rating
Perfect 10 133 39.82%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 81 24.25%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 32 9.58%
7 out of 10 : Good 27 8.08%
6 out of 10 : Average 11 3.29%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 10 2.99%
4 out of 10 : Poor 4 1.20%
3 out of 10 : Bad 3 0.90%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 0.30%
1 out of 10 : Painful 32 9.58%
Voters: 334. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-10-27, 08:22   Link #1581
Yot-chan
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
I still don't comprehend how they could think that trashing all that build-up for a wishy-washy "OMG, let's not OFFEND anybody" ending had any artistic integrity.
And yet...many were offended by it. Isn't it ironic? Don'cha think?
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Old 2009-10-27, 08:34   Link #1582
magnuskn
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I wish you would stop that. First, you accused me of trying to make AnimeSuki "politically correct," now you're saying things like this.

Neither accusation has much to do with what I've been saying.
The first thing was really something I felt I needed to call you out on, since you *had* begun sniping repeatedly at anybody who said something even slightly bad about Ranka.

This last thing was not meant to be directed at you in specific, but at the argument that a "neutral" ending was something which had merit. Which it didn't. Not after all the build-up to it.

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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
And yet...many were offended by it. Isn't it ironic? Don'cha think?
I'd say it was a serious miscalculation by Kawamori and that dude who set him up to go with it. I'd love to know what their real motivations were, to be honest. My thought: $$ signs in their eyes from merchandise.
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Old 2009-10-27, 10:20   Link #1583
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To indulge in a moment of unadultered pessimism, if they'd give a hoot about polls and opinions, they'd never have ended the series in the way they did. You can't tell me that they missed who was more popular one year ago.
The problem with it is that the polls, opinions and endorsements really came after the fact, not before. So throwing the lot with Sheryl from a marketing point of view, would have been extremely risky.

But, we know what happened, and I am happy Sheryl was made the way she is.

Remember, winners don't issue challenges.

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Old 2009-10-27, 11:04   Link #1584
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Remember, winners don't issue challenges.
That was actually my biggest comfort, regarding the Love Triangle situation. To me, those simple lines, the challenge and the acceptance, were fuel for my own wish-fulfillment fantasies. For the end of the TV series, that turned out to be enough.

Now, as for the movies... that remains to be seen.
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Old 2009-10-27, 12:47   Link #1585
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Question for backtracking exactly which interviews were fake? Because currently I'm a little confused on the issue.
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Old 2009-10-27, 13:32   Link #1586
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Question for backtracking exactly which interviews were fake? Because currently I'm a little confused on the issue.
Pretty much anything written by... was it Shaloom? & translated by Maggy.

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Old 2009-10-27, 13:46   Link #1587
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Question for backtracking exactly which interviews were fake? Because currently I'm a little confused on the issue.
Take a look at the Macross FAQ It explains everything.
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Old 2009-10-27, 14:06   Link #1588
DeX-kun
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The series was undoubtledly steering towards a Sheryl/Alto ending, there was no *way* they could have ended it on an Alto/Ranka note after the prior episodes, not without making it completely laughable.

If the movie does make Ranka a better character, which the series notably failed to do, and if it builds up a credible romance between Alto and her, I could live with it.

The series seriously dropped the ball on that account after episode 15, and therefore no Alto/Ranka ending should have been possible there. As I said, the movie is another story.

Now, if they choose to treat the movie continuity as the "real" continuity for sequels afterwards, then I'd be pissed.
I wouldn't say undoubtedly, even if most viewers felt that Alto was leaning more towards Sheryl at the time. Obviously, there was plenty of romantic tension building up between Alto and Sheryl during the course of episodes 19-24, but it's hard to pinpoint exactly where his sympathies lie. To me it felt more like Alto was being caught up in his circumstances, being caught in the flow of the moment. Ranka's departure left him confused as to what his priorities actually were, since I could imagine he wanted to go out and bring her back but couldn't because of the danger Frontier was in and of course, Sheryl's condition.

I know this is going to sound redundant but I just can't get over these points. As soon as Alto found out about Sheryl's sickness, he turned all mushy and began being as kind as he could be to her. Then there is the point of Alto seeing his mother in Sheryl and yes, I know there are characters that fall in love with someone that reminds them of their mother, but her situation is just so convenient that I believe Alto was being caught up in the moment. Alto has a tendency to want to protect Ranka all the time but after she left, he couldn't remain ignorant to what was going on around him. And so Sheryl now needed Alto and he was there to oblige.

After explaining how I feel about Alto and Sheryl, I believe an Alto x Ranka ending could have been very possible, even plausible at that. Regarding Ranka's character, I believe they took 2 steps forward and one step back. She had her moments but episode 25 retracted from that a little bit.

Now as for continuity, I believe I read an interview or something about Kawamori (a real one, not fabricated ) and they were speaking about SDFM and DYRL and which was actually canon. His response was that he really didn't care, so I don't believe that either one will be canon. I suppose we'll just have to choose one.
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Last edited by DeX-kun; 2009-10-27 at 14:20. Reason: Grammatical errors
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Old 2009-10-27, 14:10   Link #1589
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this forum, and most of japan will implode if the movie does go in the Ranka direction. the last few episodes of the series clearly pointed in the other direction, and its definitely implied that Sheryl and Alto slept together, so yeah..
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Old 2009-10-27, 14:36   Link #1590
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Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
Now as for continuity, I believe I read an interview or something about Kawamori (a real one, not fabricated ) and they were speaking about SDFM and DYRL and which was actually canon. His response was that he really didn't care, so I don't believe that either one will be canon. I suppose we'll just have to choose one.
Canon is a mixture of DYRL and SDFM, actually. In DYRL, the Supervision Army did not exist. However, in the original SDFM, the Meltrans did not possess their own vessel designs that were different from the rest of the Zentradi fleet.

Those are just two examples.

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Old 2009-10-27, 14:43   Link #1591
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Canon is a mixture of DYRL and SDFM, actually. In DYRL, the Supervision Army did not exist. However, in the original SDFM, the Meltrans did not possess their own vessel designs that were different from the rest of the Zentradi fleet.

Those are just two examples.

- Tak
Ah I see, I guess we'll be able to say the same after both movies are released. There are already plenty of differences between the first movie and the TV series, hopefully it'll be good though.
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Old 2009-10-27, 15:09   Link #1592
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I wouldn't say undoubtedly, even if most viewers felt that Alto was leaning more towards Sheryl at the time. Obviously, there was plenty of romantic tension building up between Alto and Sheryl during the course of episodes 19-24, but it's hard to pinpoint exactly where his sympathies lie. To me it felt more like Alto was being caught up in his circumstances, being caught in the flow of the moment. Ranka's departure left him confused as to what his priorities actually were, since I could imagine he wanted to go out and bring her back but couldn't because of the danger Frontier was in and of course, Sheryl's condition.

I know this is going to sound redundant but I just can't get over these points. As soon as Alto found out about Sheryl's sickness, he turned all mushy and began being as kind as he could be to her. Then there is the point of Alto seeing his mother in Sheryl and yes, I know there are characters that fall in love with someone that reminds them of their mother, but her situation is just so convenient that I believe Alto was being caught up in the moment. Alto has a tendency to want to protect Ranka all the time but after she left, he couldn't remain ignorant to what was going on around him. And so Sheryl now needed Alto and he was there to oblige.

After explaining how I feel about Alto and Sheryl, I believe an Alto x Ranka ending could have been very possible, even plausible at that. Regarding Ranka's character, I believe they took 2 steps forward and one step back. She had her moments but episode 25 retracted from that a little bit.
Taking off the shipping glasses for a second,

Ranka and Alto don't talk to each other for almost 4 episodes, while leaving each other with fundamentally different ways to deal with the situation at hand (Is there a scene where Alto explains the rooftop situation to Ranka?). Their couple development effectively stops when they leave each other on different notes. Alto walks down his path, Ranka down hers (As Ozma puts it).
Now, had there been a scene at the end with a reconciliation, explanations for Ranka's departure, and a tinge more development, It might have been possible to pull off.

22+ is almost all Alto character development, Alto/Sheryl Development (doesn't matter whether or not it's romantic or not), and plot line development. There would have to be tinges of hints or some sort of development between the two to make it believable (A solid proof of Alto's love, missing one another...etc).

I don't think there is enough substance for that couple over the last couple of episodes to make it properly believable. There is certainly convincing Independent character development to make it work later, but they would have to meet up and communicate properly later to make it proper.

Simply put, There wasn't enough time for everything, they were too busy developing the ending to really hash out everything in the series.
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Old 2009-10-27, 15:29   Link #1593
DeX-kun
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Originally Posted by Foreshadow View Post
Ranka and Alto don't talk to each other for almost 4 episodes, while leaving each other with fundamentally different ways to deal with the situation at hand (Is there a scene where Alto explains the rooftop situation to Ranka?). Their couple development effectively stops when they leave each other on different notes. Alto walks down his path, Ranka down hers (As Ozma puts it).
Now, had there been a scene at the end with a reconciliation, explanations for Ranka's departure, and a tinge more development, It might have been possible to pull off.

22+ is almost all Alto character development, Alto/Sheryl Development (doesn't matter whether or not it's romantic or not), and plot line development. There would have to be tinges of hints or some sort of development between the two to make it believable (A solid proof of Alto's love, missing one another...etc).

I don't think there is enough substance for that couple over the last couple of episodes to make it properly believable. There is certainly convincing Independent character development to make it work later, but they would have to meet up and communicate properly later to make it proper.

Simply put, There wasn't enough time for everything, they were too busy developing the ending to really hash out everything in the series.
Although I do agree with you somewhat, I believe it also depends on how you interpret the roof conversation between Alto and Klan which is pretty controversial to begin with. Even when both Alto and Ranka take their separate paths, Ranka still lingers Alto's mind which leads me to believe that he cares deeply for her (arguable of course in terms of romance.) There are more subtleties in episodes 19-24 than any of the episodes prior to that and they convey different ideas depending on each of our individual preferences.

Still I concede that there wasn't much time to hash everything out but it doesn't prevent them from continuing to develop 2 characters even when separated.
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Old 2009-10-27, 19:12   Link #1594
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I wouldn't say undoubtedly, even if most viewers felt that Alto was leaning more towards Sheryl at the time. Obviously, there was plenty of romantic tension building up between Alto and Sheryl during the course of episodes 19-24, but it's hard to pinpoint exactly where his sympathies lie. To me it felt more like Alto was being caught up in his circumstances, being caught in the flow of the moment. Ranka's departure left him confused as to what his priorities actually were, since I could imagine he wanted to go out and bring her back but couldn't because of the danger Frontier was in and of course, Sheryl's condition.
Of course personal bias comes into it a bit when I say "undoubtedly" and if you watch those episodes from a certain point of view, I agree that you *can* say that Alto was just going along, playing his part etc. Essentially taking up Yasaburos argument. I think that is the wrong point of view, but I can *see* how people arrive at that POV.

However, I think I can prove with charts, if necessary, that no Alto / Ranka was in the books, if one follows basic storytelling logic. I can't predict nonsensical endings, of course ( I think the short name for those endings is "Canvas 2"? ) , but following the whole character developments and story, going forward from episode 17 to the end, they killed off the possibility of Rankas feeling being responded to by Alto. With prejudice.

I think we went over all of this half a year ago, but if you insist, I can lay this out in detail once more.

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I know this is going to sound redundant but I just can't get over these points. As soon as Alto found out about Sheryl's sickness, he turned all mushy and began being as kind as he could be to her. Then there is the point of Alto seeing his mother in Sheryl and yes, I know there are characters that fall in love with someone that reminds them of their mother, but her situation is just so convenient that I believe Alto was being caught up in the moment. Alto has a tendency to want to protect Ranka all the time but after she left, he couldn't remain ignorant to what was going on around him. And so Sheryl now needed Alto and he was there to oblige.
Alto was not seeing his mother in Sheryl, unless you mean in the superficial sense of him comparing her situation of being in danger of dying young with his mother. Yeah, on that account he offered to take care of her so that she could die peacefully, but she rebuffed him immediately and strongly.

He had a short flashback to his mother when he saw her in that kimono, but that was simply a moment of remembering his mother being in that very room, wearing that very kimono in that very pose. Sheryl looks totally different than his mother and they don't seem to share a personality.

I concede that he made an effort of being less confrontational after he knew of Sheryls disease, but this does not negate the development they had before that moment. There was a lot of build-up with them, which was simply nudged into another ( less desirable, for sure ) direction when he became aware of her V-Type infection. With Ranka, there was something I'd label a "build-down", so to say, since episode 17.

And I will say it again, wanting to protect someone =/= being in love with someone. Him being concerned about Rankas safety is not something I'd label as romantic love.
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Old 2009-10-27, 20:13   Link #1595
DeX-kun
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Of course personal bias comes into it a bit when I say "undoubtedly" and if you watch those episodes from a certain point of view, I agree that you *can* say that Alto was just going along, playing his part etc. Essentially taking up Yasaburos argument. I think that is the wrong point of view, but I can *see* how people arrive at that POV.

However, I think I can prove with charts, if necessary, that no Alto / Ranka was in the books, if one follows basic storytelling logic. I can't predict nonsensical endings, of course ( I think the short name for those endings is "Canvas 2"? ) , but following the whole character developments and story, going forward from episode 17 to the end, they killed off the possibility of Rankas feeling being responded to by Alto. With prejudice.

I think we went over all of this half a year ago, but if you insist, I can lay this out in detail once more.
I can respect that, but even using charts one can't predict with perfect accuracy how some scenes/situations were intended, the most we can do is interpret it the way we see it.

If you bring up episode 17, that would mean that you're referring to the scene where Alto and Ranka had a meeting in Ranka's bedroom, is that one of the moments where you felt they killed off their romantic relationship? (Honest question.)

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Alto was not seeing his mother in Sheryl, unless you mean in the superficial sense of him comparing her situation of being in danger of dying young with his mother. Yeah, on that account he offered to take care of her so that she could die peacefully, but she rebuffed him immediately and strongly.
Excuse my wording but yes, I did mean to compare both Alto's mother and Sheryl's similar dilemma. Sheryl did refuse but it still ended with Alto taking care of her since they did start living together and he did all he could to help.

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I concede that he made an effort of being less confrontational after he knew of Sheryls disease, but this does not negate the development they had before that moment. There was a lot of build-up with them, which was simply nudged into another ( less desirable, for sure ) direction when he became aware of her V-Type infection. With Ranka, there was something I'd label a "build-down", so to say, since episode 17.

And I will say it again, wanting to protect someone =/= being in love with someone. Him being concerned about Rankas safety is not something I'd label as romantic love.
I believe this applies to Ranka just as much as it does to Sheryl. I disagree with what you call the "build-down," I didn't see it that way and it doesn't negate the build-up between Alto and Ranka prior to episode 17. I feel that Alto's sudden change in demeanor is being mistaken for love rather than sympathy, sometimes kindness is more torturous than honesty.

I agree, wanting to protect someone doesn't always equal love. In the later parts of the series though, Alto was more concerned about why Ranka would do such a thing rather than her safety, and his flashbacks of Ranka during the conversation with Klan were those of his more tender moments with his mother and Ranka, which reinforces my feelings on this subject. In this memory, Alto remembers the moment his mother combed his hair when he was a child which happens to be the same scene that occurred on Gallia 4 between Alto and Ranka. This scene was also labeled as "a scene full of love" by Yasaburo in episode 19 I believe. I think Ranka was still considered a romantic rival even after episode 17.
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Old 2009-10-27, 20:14   Link #1596
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And I will say it again, wanting to protect someone =/= being in love with someone. Him being concerned about Rankas safety is not something I'd label as romantic love.
This is a very important statement.
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Old 2009-10-27, 20:19   Link #1597
justavisitor
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Then taking care of a sick person also =/= being with love with someone...I know, we are going to that circle again...both sides will never be able to convince each other, so why don't we move on
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Old 2009-10-27, 20:35   Link #1598
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Then taking care of a sick person also =/= being with love with someone...
Well, you are right, but there is a slight problem.

Alto never actually 'took care' of Sheryl. She preferred to be on her own, baby.

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Old 2009-10-27, 20:46   Link #1599
Foreshadow
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Well, you are right, but there is a slight problem.

Alto never actually 'took care' of Sheryl. She preferred to be on her own, baby.

- Tak
There is that part about them kissing.....

I seriously doubt Alto would have kept kissing Sheryl for like (I went back and counted ) 16 seconds after she initiated it if he didn't see her that way.

Oh God I love that scene
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Old 2009-10-27, 20:58   Link #1600
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Yep, he is not the man to kiss someone who he is not in love with.

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