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Old 2009-10-28, 10:59   Link #1341
Kafriel
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
Lol, are you serious? She would have beaten to death Unzen if she was not stopped and you call that loosing? She lost to her human side but not the battle itself.

So you win when you get beaten the crap out of you according to you? Following your logic, getting killed would be a ultimate win...

And Unzen sister attacked her suddenly. There was no battle. It's like I would throw a rock at you from behind and run away and then say to everyone that I have beaten you in a duel.
She would have won against Unzen if she had managed to change his views, which she failed to do. If you check my post, I see Medaka more like GTO than anything, so fighting isn't the main theme to me. Had she killed Unzen, she would have been thrown out of school in addition to being devastated emotionally, which she would have done if not for her friends.
There was a battle against his sister, except she chose not to defend and got beaten up, thus failing to face the problem at hand. So, that was her second defeat.
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Old 2009-10-28, 11:24   Link #1342
Arturro
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Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
Had she killed Unzen, she would have been thrown out of school in addition to being devastated emotionally, which she would have done if not for her friends.
When you're talking about a fantasy story, you have to use logic and rules of those fantastic universe. Rules in Medakaverse are differen't from rules of our world.

As far as we know killing other students is allowed, Unzen massacred people in music club, tried to kill - twice - SC members, another one from class 13 admited that he tried to kill Medaka already. And he was talking to school principal. Neither he, nor Unzen been expeled from school, so Medaka shouldn't be expeled in case of killing someone.

Also I don't see why she would be devastated emotionally after killing someone? As Medaka has told many times (also Unzen and lapdog), she is unable to comprehend such emotions as love, friendship etc. So fas she has shown only one emotion - rage, and told us about another emotion - a need for acceptation. To be devastated emotionally one need to have "higher" feelings, and she doesn't have such feelings. Also because killing people in that school is considered normal in that school, so she shouldn't be ostracized by others, so no reason to feel sad.
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Old 2009-10-28, 11:25   Link #1343
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Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
She would have won against Unzen if she had managed to change his views, which she failed to do. If you check my post, I see Medaka more like GTO than anything, so fighting isn't the main theme to me. Had she killed Unzen, she would have been thrown out of school in addition to being devastated emotionally, which she would have done if not for her friends.
There was a battle against his sister, except she chose not to defend and got beaten up, thus failing to face the problem at hand. So, that was her second defeat.
I wouldn't really call that "losing" so much as her just being a complete idiot. Now she's going to get serious-- and you saw what happens when she does that. She took down 3 members of class 13 without even touching them. When she learns to "not go easy" on people, there will be no one who can stand against her, making each villain pretty much pointless and making the rest of the heroes irrelevant. As I said, it reminds me on the Manhwa Id, where Id is so strong, the other character really have no point in the story except to stand around and gape at the feats of power he displays. It made the whole thing very boring for me and the only thing that kept me reading it was the jealous sword. :P
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Old 2009-10-28, 11:37   Link #1344
Clarste
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Originally Posted by KLGChaos View Post
I wouldn't really call that "losing" so much as her just being a complete idiot. Now she's going to get serious-- and you saw what happens when she does that. She took down 3 members of class 13 without even touching them. When she learns to "not go easy" on people, there will be no one who can stand against her, making each villain pretty much pointless and making the rest of the heroes irrelevant. As I said, it reminds me on the Manhwa Id, where Id is so strong, the other character really have no point in the story except to stand around and gape at the feats of power he displays. It made the whole thing very boring for me and the only thing that kept me reading it was the jealous sword. :P
You have to keep in mind that the people she just beat up were the weaklings of class 13 who wanted to get into the "real" class 13. There seems to be quite a gap between even the abnormals, and we still haven't seen a "real" one in action yet. Reading comprehension ftw? There's no indication whatsoever that she'll be stomping over everyone.

Anyway, I think her being super-strong yet not being able to have the moral victory can be a compelling story if it's done well. Her goal in life is not to beat everyone up.
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Old 2009-10-28, 12:34   Link #1345
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You have to keep in mind that the people she just beat up were the weaklings of class 13 who wanted to get into the "real" class 13. There seems to be quite a gap between even the abnormals, and we still haven't seen a "real" one in action yet. Reading comprehension ftw? There's no indication whatsoever that she'll be stomping over everyone.

Anyway, I think her being super-strong yet not being able to have the moral victory can be a compelling story if it's done well. Her goal in life is not to beat everyone up.
Yeah, I realize that, but these "abnormals" are supposed to be much stronger than specials. However, we've got "specials" who are destroying "abnormals". So, it starts getting confusing as to what actually separates the two groups. Just the dice roll? If these guys are supposed to be super geniuses at everything they do and are so strong, they can twist probability, why can a special defeat them? Wouldn't that just make them specials? Or do you have to completely insane to be considered "abnormal" like they all seem to be so far? It doesn't make much sense and all feels very random.

Of course, I am biased because I don't like Medaka that much as she eats up WAY too much of the manga on her own and I find her personality grating. True, she has some massive psychological problems that they've been revealing, which is compelling, but her arrogant, controlling and tyrannical attitude does not go well with her "I love everyone" philosophy and really makes her come off as a hypocrite to me. True, this is supposed to be one of her quirks, but it doesn't change the fact that I don't like her personality. This is more of a personal opinion than anything else, though.

As for the story, I feel that so far it's been told poorly. There's a lot of interesting ideas, but with the lack of development of the other main characters (main characters completely vanish for chapters at a time after not being developed at all), the inconsistent plot, and the sudden jarring shift into battle manga territory instead of a smoother, more natural transition, everything suddenly feels rushed. I've mentioned it before, but instead of being shown what's going on, we're being told instead, like in a book. Sadly, I don't feel this translates well into manga form. If I wanted to read everything that's going on, I'd read a book instead of a manga. Give me a reason to believe Medaka feels all these things by showing her feeling them, instead of just telling me she feels that way. When someone tells you they're extremely sad, but their face is almost always expressionless, it makes it hard to believe. That could just be a problem with the artist, though.

Then there's the fact that Medaka is a female lead in a shounen manga. Those just don't go over well with people as it IS a manga directed towards a male audience. I'm not saying a female lead who kicks butt doesn't work, as shown in mangas like Change 123, GS Mikami, Sekirei, Kurohime, etc, but it also needs a strong male lead to give the male audience someone to relate to, even if they don't fight. Zenkichi was supposed to fill that role, but so far, has failed pretty bad. Again, this is due not enough development on his part.

I know it's still early in the manga, but you'd think that by 24 chapters in, we'd at least have a reason to care about the characters and I'm finding it very hard to do that. I keep reading, hoping it'll get better and just when I'm about to give up for good, we do get some insight that helps, but so far, I've mostly been disappointed and I'm not the only one.

I will say that this is one of the most controversial mangas I've ever read. I've never seen people split so much on it. Usually, when people don't like a manga, they just drop it and that's it, but Medaka actually has potential to be decent and it IS decent enough to keep us coming back. I just think many of us expected more.
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Old 2009-10-28, 12:45   Link #1346
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To me, Medaka's super-strength was originally to be used much like Oga's in Beelzebub, an element of humour that kills the need to make sense. However, since the new arc has started expanding on it, I think it will become more of a plot element than comic relief, which I'm not particularly fond of...but whatever, what's done is done.
Quote:
Also I don't see why she would be devastated emotionally after killing someone?
Yeah, iunno, maybe because she wants to help everyone?
Quote:
Give me a reason to believe Medaka feels all these things by showing her feeling them, instead of just telling me she feels that way. When someone tells you they're extremely sad, but their face is almost always expressionless, it makes it hard to believe.
I think it is what makes her who she is, a girl who can't express her feelings normally, which has been stated from ch1.
Quote:
Yeah, I realize that, but these "abnormals" are supposed to be much stronger than specials.
I don't think it's been explained yet in detail, I tend to think that special>abnormal, and because of that the latter were used in experiments while the former seem to be enjoying a normal life.
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Old 2009-10-28, 12:47   Link #1347
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Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
She would have won against Unzen if she had managed to change his views, which she failed to do. If you check my post, I see Medaka more like GTO than anything, so fighting isn't the main theme to me. Had she killed Unzen, she would have been thrown out of school in addition to being devastated emotionally, which she would have done if not for her friends.
There was a battle against his sister, except she chose not to defend and got beaten up, thus failing to face the problem at hand. So, that was her second defeat.
Ok, then I will gladly be a safe and sound loser, while you will be victoriously bleeding in the corner counting your broken ribs.

And this was not her second loss.

In first case you are talking about idealogical loss, but physically she was victorious, it would ridiculous to say otherwise.

In second case you are talking about physical 'loss'. It's just that it hardly counts as a loss because she never was really 'taking part in it' to begin with.

If you count the first case as her loss, then the second case is her win (she chose not to fight) and vice versa...
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Old 2009-10-28, 13:05   Link #1348
Kurosu
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Originally Posted by KLGChaos View Post
Yeah, I realize that, but these "abnormals" are supposed to be much stronger than specials. However, we've got "specials" who are destroying "abnormals".
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...unchOutCthulhu

>.> you act like it's something new. And you make it sound like abnormals are falling like flies, it was only this instance, also it doesn't sound like Myougi was one of the stronger ones anyways.
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Old 2009-10-28, 13:07   Link #1349
Kafriel
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Ok, then I will gladly be a safe and sound loser, while you will be victoriously bleeding in the corner counting your broken ribs.
She's Medaka, if she spits on the wounds they'd start healing:P
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In first case you are talking about idealogical loss, but physically she was victorious, it would ridiculous to say otherwise.

In second case you are talking about physical 'loss'. It's just that it hardly counts as a loss because she never was really 'taking part in it' to begin with.
In the first fight, she fought to convey her feelings to Unzen, which she ultimately failed to do. In the second one, she didn't get through to his sister, so she failed to help her too. Throughout the manga, she's fought many fights and won them all- if the money trio had died or kept risking their lives for money, it would have been Medaka's loss, but she managed to change them, even by a little bit. Unzen and his sister are currently bound by the principal, Medaka will only be victorious if she can get them to become human and leave the project, while it's her loss if she accepts that she is abnormal and joins the project.
I don't see why so many people judge the recent events of this manga from a battle manga scope, when all the previous ones have been different.
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Old 2009-10-28, 13:44   Link #1350
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I kinda feel like the detractors are simultaneously saying "oh, it looks like it's devolved into a battle manga, how disappointing" while at the same time willfully ignoring all the interesting bits that are not battle-manga like. It's like you're reluctantly holding it to a lower standard, and then blaming it for aiming higher. It just seems like an odd and sort of backwards way to look at things.

That said, I agree that the storytelling in this series has so far been very inconsistent and overall pretty bad. However, I think it's too early to tell if this new direction is for the better or for the worse.
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Old 2009-10-28, 13:47   Link #1351
KLGChaos
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There is one thing I'd like to know.

Unzen's sister, after Nabeshima took her down, said she'd be out for 3 months. Now Medaka, who had several bones broken by her, walked away without a scratch a few moments later. This also happened with Unzen where she had to go to the hospital because "her bones were shattered and several internal organs were rearranged", yet next chapter, not even a single mark was on her.

I'd just like to know how that's possible. If Unzen is out for awhile after being severely injured (and he was supposed to be on par with Medaka) and his sister it also out for a long time, why is Medaka completely fine? They could at least tell us if she has some healing factor or something instead of just completely forgetting about her injuries.

I don't mind the new direction as I do like battle mangas as well as school life mangas. However, I don't like it when author's just forget things. Anyone remember Akashi-senpai? Was mentioned once and then... nothing. I'm wondering if she'll be the leader of the 13 or something and she has the hots for Zen. :P That would be funny, if she stole Zenkichi away from Medaka.
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Old 2009-10-28, 13:50   Link #1352
Kafriel
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Maybe it's purposefully left untold as a factor to a new arc where her health is in danger due to the severe damage her body suffered and the minimal treatment it received, who knows.
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Old 2009-10-28, 14:12   Link #1353
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However, I don't like it when author's just forget things. Anyone remember Akashi-senpai? Was mentioned once and then... nothing. I'm wondering if she'll be the leader of the 13 or something and she has the hots for Zen. :P That would be funny, if she stole Zenkichi away from Medaka.
From Medaka point of view Zenkichi is exactly the same as any other student in school. Why losing him should bother Medaka? She confessed to Zen in oneshot, but in series she herself told, many times, that she has no other feelings for him than to any other human being. Unless it changed in last chapters, but spoilers didn't mentioned anything about Medaka feelings to her lapdog.
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Old 2009-10-28, 14:51   Link #1354
KLGChaos
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Hmm... not sure if the next chapter is going to focus on Zen or not, like some predicted. True, the spoiler I saw was small, but:

Spoiler:


Medaka's trying to power up to protect her friends. Too bad the mangaka has done a poor job developing her relationship with the other characters, so it doesn't feel like they're friends and more like hangers on. >< Arturro is right when he says that everyone just seems the same to Medaka, even those who are supposed to be close to her, like Zenkichi. It's hard to buy the whole friendship angle when there's really very little evidence of it. Medaka would have gone Perses for pretty much anyone who got beat like that, whether it was the Council or not.

I really think that's the biggest issue I've had with this manga so far and is probably the cause of everything that I do dislike about it. It's got some nice ideas, but they've been poorly delivered, which brings everything else down.

It's like going into a restaurant, where they put on a show. Which is a great idea, until you find out the show consists of some hairy, shirtless fat guy making fart noises with his armpits. Yeah, the show may have been a great idea, but there's much better ways to go about it.
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Old 2009-10-28, 15:36   Link #1355
Arturro
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Originally Posted by KLGChaos View Post
Medaka's trying to power up to protect her friends.
She doesn't need to power up, she only has to break her restrainers.

Quote:
Too bad the mangaka has done a poor job developing her relationship with the other characters, so it doesn't feel like they're friends and more like hangers on. >< Arturro is right when he says that everyone just seems the same to Medaka, even those who are supposed to be close to her, like Zenkichi. It's hard to buy the whole friendship angle when there's really very little evidence of it. Medaka would have gone Perses for pretty much anyone who got beat like that, whether it was the Council or not.
I'm not sure if it is a "poor job", what if it was intentional? One of MB fans (I'm sorry, I don't remember the nick now) argued author intended from the beggining for MB to be a supernatural battle manga. He has a few good arguments to back his theory. If he is right then author intended from the start:
- MB is a manga about supernatural "humans";
- Medaka doesn't know what is love, friendship etc. (so she doesn't really has any friends);
- Medaka just wants to emulate humans, to do so she is trying to help everybody (she is trying to have friends, but because she doesn't understand such concept she created a kennel instead);
- in Medakaverse superhuman mutants exist (so no one is suprised, except Zenkichi, by her supernatural actions);
- in Medakaverse killing human is alowed (so people are attending to school where enforcers could shoot or blow up anyone) .
In other words is another story about a robot/monster who is trying to became a human by emulating human behaviour

Quote:
I really think that's the biggest issue I've had with this manga so far and is probably the cause of everything that I do dislike about it. It's got some nice ideas, but they've been poorly delivered, which brings everything else down.

It's like going into a restaurant, where they put on a show. Which is a great idea, until you find out the show consists of some hairy, shirtless fat guy making fart noises with his armpits. Yeah, the show may have been a great idea, but there's much better ways to go about it.
You were just mistaken what kind of show it will be, only because host was a cute girl it doesn't mean all performers will be cute girls.

It's sad, cause I also expected some cute girl not hairy guy
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Old 2009-10-28, 17:04   Link #1356
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- Medaka doesn't know what is love, friendship etc. (so she doesn't really has any friends);
Pretty sure Zenkichi has been with her since they were little. So at least she had one friend...
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Old 2009-10-28, 17:14   Link #1357
KLGChaos
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Pretty sure Zenkichi has been with her since they were little. So at least she had one friend...
Sadly, she doesn't really treat him any different than anyone else, so it's hard to believe they were friends. The way he makes it out, it's more like she dragged him around and forced him to do things. Heck, she even gave him the lowest position on the council and would have preferred to have the man who tried to kill them as VP than Zenkichi.
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Old 2009-10-28, 17:50   Link #1358
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Pretty sure Zenkichi has been with her since they were little. So at least she had one friend...
He is her friend, he is in love with her. She doesn't love him, nor she is his friend. She doesn't understand what friendship is, she only observe what other people are doing, and is imitating them. She heard that friends spends lots of time together - so she and Zen spends lots of time together. She heard that friends play together - so she and Zen trained together. That trainings was a fake - he didn't know that she is able to crush steel in her bare hands - that means she never was sincere with him (IMHO this is one of proofs that MB wasn't meant at beggining as supernatural battle manga, but assume for now it was intentional). She heard that friends aren't shy around one another, so she strips when Zen is with her. She heard... and so on.
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Old 2009-10-28, 18:17   Link #1359
KLGChaos
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He is her friend, he is in love with her. She doesn't love him, nor she is his friend. She doesn't understand what friendship is, she only observe what other people are doing, and is imitating them. She heard that friends spends lots of time together - so she and Zen spends lots of time together. She heard that friends play together - so she and Zen trained together. That trainings was a fake - he didn't know that she is able to crush steel in her bare hands - that means she never was sincere with him (IMHO this is one of proofs that MB wasn't meant at beggining as supernatural battle manga, but assume for now it was intentional). She heard that friends aren't shy around one another, so she strips when Zen is with her. She heard... and so on.
That gives even further credence to a theory I have that Medaka has no real concept of abstract thought. Notice how when Nabeshima punches Unzen's sister the first time, Medaka says "I was never taught that". It seems like she can only take what she's learned, but using a normal human's ability to reason and imagine is beyond her.

For example, a person can adapt to various situations they've never been in before, like fixing a flat tire. Say, it's the first flat you've ever had, but you've never had to change one, so you're not quite sure how. However, common sense would say that you need to somehow lift the car up, remove the tire and put the new one on and through rational thought, you'd figure out how to use the jack and spare tire. Medaka would be at a complete loss, because she lacks the creative process and imagination that normal people have. She can only use what she's been taught because she's incapable of learning something on her own.

It makes me wonder if she has the ability to even dream.

Of course, there are a couple of things that refute this a bit earlier on, namely her grabbing all the balls during the swim team arc and donning the dog costume in an attempt to capture the dog. However, there's several examples that support this, as well:

First, there's what Arturro said about friendship and her stripping, etc.

Secondly, there's the "bike" incident. When she fights she takes the guy's bike, she grabs it and says "This is not how you properly ride a bike!" almost as if she didn't even realize he was going to use it as a weapon.

Third, there's Unzen. After she fought him, she didn't realize anything about her own "anger" issues (aka Perses mode) and other problems until he told her about them. Then she responded with "You taught me something good."

Fourth, there's Nabeshima punching Unzen's sister, as I already mentioned. Medaka says "I was never taught that" about Judo, so if it came down to it, she probably never would have thought of even using a fist. Basically, she needs to be taught something to make use of it, as she couldn't just figure out on her own that someone who's trained in Judo can punch as well. She had to be told about it.

Fifth, there's the talk between her and Nabeshima. She didn't do anything to fight back because "she had no reason to dodge". It took Nabeshima explaining it to her for her to learn to fight back before something bad happens.
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Old 2009-10-28, 18:31   Link #1360
Kurosu
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Spoiler:
If we both saw the same spoiler, then it's not exactly the case. Zenkichi does make an appearance in this chapter.
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