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View Poll Results: Macross Frontier - Episode 25 Rating
Perfect 10 133 39.82%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 81 24.25%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 32 9.58%
7 out of 10 : Good 27 8.08%
6 out of 10 : Average 11 3.29%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 10 2.99%
4 out of 10 : Poor 4 1.20%
3 out of 10 : Bad 3 0.90%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 0.30%
1 out of 10 : Painful 32 9.58%
Voters: 334. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-10-29, 10:11   Link #1621
wisteria233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
I said you don't have to quote me lol ...anyway my short answer is no..I think your labeling of Ranka fans is completely false

The longer answer is that on the contrary, I find that Ranka and Alto are always helping each other. Alto saves Ranka in ep 1..Ranka indirectly saves Alto in ep 7...Ranka saves Alto in ep 12...and since than Ranka has been the trump card from ep 14?? to ep 21...Alto and other air forces have to depend on her help! And in ep 25, Alto saves Ranka and Ranka immediately helps back by singing and use "action" to encourage Sheryl to sing and help the Frontier XD

I actually enjoy relationship that is helping each other, and I find that element in RankaxAlto relationship...Ranka has been frequently helping Alto and MF in battlefield and yet Sheryl only helps Alto in battlefield in ep 24?? (I am not a Sheryl fan so sorry if I remember something wrong about her) and well I guess I can also count that incident where Sheryl pilots Micheal's plane in an insane manner XD

I don't know why you want to label Ranka fans only enjoy one-side relationship...because it's not!!! I can find that many interesting elements in RankaxAlto relationship and I am sure many other Ranka fans will find a lot more than what I got from AltoxRanka relationship...I originally didn't not want to reply but perhaps it's the time to debunk some myth/miscommunication from Sheryl's camp
Um no Ranka really doesn't help out on the battlefield until episode 16, and even then its Frontier she's helping not Alto specifically. However, if you count episode 7 where Sheryl voice reaches Alto when he's about to lose consciousness, it was Sheryl's voice who reached him first. Anytime before episode 16 was before they found about the existence of fold waves so it really doesn't count. Then she ran away to "search for the Vajra" in episode 21, after the previous episode when she collapsed merely for believing that Alto didn't love her, which caused more trouble, than help. Before then she role was getting into some kind of danger to get Alto's attention. Then after that Sheryl took up Ranka's role as the songstress of hope. Also I seem to remember a certain confession at knife point, oh and the previous time when her bodyguard attacked Alto and Ranka did nothing to stop him. You also ignore that Sheryl was also singing with Ranka in episode 7, and 25. Also didn't Ranka get Alto shot down in the previous episode? So in reality it wasn't just Ranka really helping him, in most of you're examples either Sheryl was also there, or She caused a truck load of trouble in the previous episode before episode before helping anyone. The only one that really counts is episode 12, which of course is quickly followed by her getting kidnapped and saved by Brera, so you're really grasping at straws with that argument.

Sheryl was also just started taking lessons at time and was still a beginner in piloting, so it was common sense that she was shot down. Just pointing that out it also doesn't help your case, since the fact that Sheryl is taking piloting lessons shows that She shares similar interests as Alto. So yeah its a bit of weaksauce argument.


It also took Ranka 21 episodes to finally ask Alto about his personal life. Love is a two way street, if you want to really love someone you have to first know them and their flaws. Ranka pretty much puts also on a pedestal thorough out the entire series, treating him as more of an ideal than a person. Case in point she had to be told that Alto used to act in kabuki, a fact that pretty much everyone knew about, except her.

The reason why that label tends to exist is mainly because whenever many a AltoxRanka fan list of their reasoning for believing their reasoning for liking or believing them to be a couple, its almost always from Ranka's point of view. They almost never really consider Alto's behavior or his response to the way her crush. In fact the only argument I've ever heard from AltoxRanka fans from Alto's point of view is that "he always saves her" or "Because he saves her it makes him more masculine". In other words shallow arguments. That label didn't just come out of no where.
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Old 2009-10-29, 10:23   Link #1622
magnuskn
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Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
sounds like you are changing tone lol...now you are saying there is no scorecard for "saved her love interest more" and before you were saying Ranka is constantly at the receiving end XD


Okay, I'll explain this again. Listen, carefully I'll use small words.

Ranka and Sheryl getting into situations where Alto has to save them is not the same as Ranka having a personality which is mostly incapable of event trying to take her fate into her own hands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
As I said, Ranka also helps Alto in ep 7 (indirectly) and ep 12 (Ranka stops the mob with my favorite song) ep 18 (as you said) and ep 21 (Ranka sings alone in front of millions of Vajra while Alto can only helplessly watch)..(gotta recheck ep 14 to 21..but that's what I remember for now)...you are right, relationships are built upon mutual feeling, and I feel Ranka and Alto built this mutual feeling in battlefield since they are constantly helping each other
This is not how a romantic relationship works... as you say it, it sounds like "battle comrades". And even that doesn't work with Ranka being generally useless and cowering in a corner.
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Old 2009-10-29, 10:31   Link #1623
justavisitor
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@wisteria233
if Ranka is helping MF, then she is also helping Alto...Alto is not an one man army...he also belongs in those air forces...and you forgot the scene where Ranka sings in front of millions of Vajra and Alto helplessly watches it on his VF-25...

As I said in my previous post, love comes both side..I agree with that..and I find that element in RankaxAlto relationship...they both are helping each other...Alto really feels graceful that Ranka helps him in ep 12...his pain in seeing there is nothing he can do but to watch Ranka sing in front of many Vajra...and the happy union when Alto saves Ranka in ep 25...so their relationship are partly built on the battlefield..it's not just save/being saved...it's like in soldiers or swat team..teammates are important in there...it's also because in the intense of the big battle, ppl (in here, Alto and Ranka) can see the truest self about each other

Anyway, that's my opinion, it's not that alto loves Ranka because he constantly has to save her, it's rather because, both of them experience big things together some relationship (romantic relationship in my view) got developed from those life and death experience.

@magnuskn
When you say "Ranka having a personality which is mostly incapable of event trying to take her fate into her own hands"...you mean Sheryl who jumps off the building because she has to get her underwear back and Alto has to come and rescue?? Ranka maybe got saved a bit more, but Sheryl takes the headline with that incident

And many ""battle comrades" develop love story...(at least, that's what it is been described in many dramas or movies XD)...and I have listed example where Ranka helps
so I really fail to see your argument in that part

Seems like we can never agree with each other, we both feel good about the pair that we like and that's the most important thing about watching the series. Of course we can discuss, but seems like we are talking in circle here...can we move on? I know you will reply back, so in your next post, just drop a line saying let's move on and I can happily go to somewhere else
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Last edited by justavisitor; 2009-10-29 at 10:45.
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Old 2009-10-29, 10:48   Link #1624
wisteria233
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Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
@wisteria233
if Ranka is helping MF, then she is also helping Alto...Alto is not an one man army...he also belongs in those air forces...and you forgot the scene where Ranka sings in front of millions of Vajra and Alto helplessly watch it on his VF-25...

As I said in my previous post, love comes both side..I agree with that..and I find that element lol...they both are helping each other...Alto really feels graceful that Ranka helps him in ep 12...his pain in seeing there is nothing he can do but to watch Ranka sing in front of many Vajra...and the happy union when Alto saves Ranka...so their relationship are partly built on the battlefield..it's not just save/being saved...it's like in soldiers or swat team..teammates are important in there...it's also because in the intense of the big battle, ppl (in here, Alto and Ranka) can see the truest self about each other

Anyway, that's my opinion, it's not that alto loves Ranka because he constantly has to save her, it's rather because, both of them experience big things together
That's was exactly my point she is not just helping Alto, but also also MF. It kind of debunks your argument a little bit. Also her brother is also in the Air Force as are her friends from school. Are you saying that she's not helping MF for her family and friends, but merely for a crush? You see where an argument like this can go?

Not only that but the only episode she really does help him out is 12. The other times its Sheryl with her. Also correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Alto decide to originally kill her? Was it not Sheryl who asked him to save her? Wasn't she the reason why he almost died in the previous episode? Also after episode 12 they ran into each other on the elevator, he did not seek her out. He was also more embarrassed for her than happy, considering she was jumping around with no underwear on. Also she's his friend, and all he saw was just some unknown Valkyrie fly away with her, the same Valkyrie that tried to shoot down his comrades during a practice match. Alto was also never in pain from watching Ranka sing to the Vajra, that was Brera.

Again what's their relationship like off the battlefield? Does he seek her out? What does she know about his personal life? Does she know his family? His Dreams? Hopes for the future? Just having a relationship on the battlefield makes you comrades at arms, it doesn't make a couple.

Don't ignore all the facts it just your arguments easily dismissible by anyone whose seen the show, and it makes look delusional. Especially when you ignore Sheryl's involvement in the scenes.
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Old 2009-10-29, 11:04   Link #1625
justavisitor
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lol, it's 2 vs 1 here XD

I am talking RankaXAlto in here so of course I have to concentrate on talking Ranka in here...I will concentrate on Sheryl if I wanna discuss the relationship between Sheryl X Alto

Ranka is helping MF and Alto..and by fate, Ranka and Alto happen to witness those life and death moment together, and their relationship got built on that...I mean this storyline is not new...because of her power, she got attracted by Vajra, and by fate, Alto is always with her in those moment...her role got more involved as story goes on and Alto happens to join the army..and by fate again they always got together when crisis falls upon them...I see nothing wrong in here

Yes, Alto "tried" to pretend to be "justice above all" and "tried" to kill Ranka...Sheryl did tell Alto to save Ranka...but when Alto finds out the slightest hint that Ranka was being controlled, he didn't need Sheryl's advice but to save Ranka ASAP with his mad piloting skill...You can say Ranka almost got him killed, but hey, Alto doesn't mind and tells sheryl and Ranka both are his wings...Now what does that tell you about how Alto thinks of Ranka??

I really agree with your last paragraph...many ppl have seen the show, some of them may not believe in my viewpoint but I am sure some others might agree with me...If you wanna call me or others who agree with my perspective as "delusional" that's your choice...I believe I am listing facts

That's all XD
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I am a Ranka fan and I have significant experience in defending various "crimes" committed by Ranka, from her evil plan to terminate human races, to feeding inapporiate food to unknown lifeforms. If you think you find "new" charges aginst Ranka and you are interested, or you care to see how a particular Ranka fan would respond, please feel free to check my previous comment. There is a good chance that I have answered a similiar issue. And of course, my viewpoints do not necessarily represent other perspectivs from numerous Ranka fans in this planet
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Old 2009-10-29, 11:16   Link #1626
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Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
@wisteria233
if Ranka is helping MF, then she is also helping Alto...Alto is not an one man army...he also belongs in those air forces...and you forgot the scene where Ranka sings in front of millions of Vajra and Alto helplessly watches it on his VF-25...
Hence Ranka is in love with everybody in NUNS. That little...

Quote:
Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
@magnuskn
When you say "Ranka having a personality which is mostly incapable of event trying to take her fate into her own hands"...you mean Sheryl who jumps off the building because she has to get her underwear back and Alto has to come and rescue?? Ranka maybe got saved a bit more, but Sheryl takes the headline with that incident
Bwuh? What has Sheryl being carelessly headstrong have to do with Rankas personality? Learn2Debate, please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
And many ""battle comrades" develop love story...(at least, that's what it is been described in many dramas or movies XD)...and I have listed example where Ranka helps
so I really fail to see your argument in that part
Because Ranka never was in any shape or form someone who "battles"? I probably should have used another word, because it does not describe Rankas side at all.

Anyway, we are getting nowhere, especially because you choose to misinterpret points I am making.
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Old 2009-10-29, 11:27   Link #1627
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Hence Ranka is in love with everybody in NUNS. That little...



Bwuh? What has Sheryl being carelessly headstrong have to do with Rankas personality? Learn2Debate, please.



Because Ranka never was in any shape or form someone who "battles"? I probably should have used another word, because it does not describe Rankas side at all.

Anyway, we are getting nowhere, especially because you choose to misinterpret points I am making.
So if you think a girl who helps the army, happens to like one of the guys in the army, must be in love with EVERYONE in the army....All right, your choice, but I don't want to get involved

If that's how you think of me, always misinterpret your point, then I see no point that we should continue our discussion...I respect you, I never accuse you misinterpret my argument...of course I believe I never twist your argument...but if we are not in the same ground...I respect you and try to answer the best I could, yet you think I am just a troll, then move on
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To all old and new Sheryl fans:
I am a Ranka fan and I have significant experience in defending various "crimes" committed by Ranka, from her evil plan to terminate human races, to feeding inapporiate food to unknown lifeforms. If you think you find "new" charges aginst Ranka and you are interested, or you care to see how a particular Ranka fan would respond, please feel free to check my previous comment. There is a good chance that I have answered a similiar issue. And of course, my viewpoints do not necessarily represent other perspectivs from numerous Ranka fans in this planet
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Old 2009-10-29, 11:32   Link #1628
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Well, with Dex I can expect him to respond with something which is an actual answer to my argument. That's why he gets my respect.
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Old 2009-10-29, 11:45   Link #1629
wisteria233
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lol, it's 2 vs 1 here XD

I am talking RankaXAlto in here so of course I have to concentrate on talking Ranka in here...I will concentrate on Sheryl if I wanna discuss the relationship between Sheryl X Alto

Ranka is helping MF and Alto..and by fate, Ranka and Alto happen to witness those life and death moment together, and their relationship got built on that...I mean this storyline is not new...because of her power, she got attracted by Vajra, and by fate, Alto is always with her in those moment...her role got more involved as story goes on and Alto happens to join the army..and by fate again they always got together when crisis falls upon them...I see nothing wrong in here

Yes, Alto "tried" to pretend to be "justice above all" and "tried" to kill Ranka...Sheryl did tell Alto to save Ranka...but when Alto finds out the slightest hint that Ranka was being controlled, he didn't need Sheryl's advice but to save Ranka ASAP with his mad piloting skill...You can say Ranka almost got him killed, but hey, Alto doesn't mind and tells sheryl and Ranka both are his wings...Now what does that tell you about how Alto thinks of Ranka??

I really agree with your last paragraph...many ppl have seen the show, some of them may not believe in my viewpoint but I am sure some others might agree with me...If you wanna call me or others who agree with my perspective as "delusional" that's your choice...I believe I am listing facts

That's all XD
Don't try to play the victim I'm just offering criticism towards a construed arugement.

The reason why I said that was because all those a lot of those "moments when Ranka saved Alto" also included Sheryl who was either singing with her, the scene is happening because of her (eg: episode 7, 10, 12, and 25). Come to think of it Alto wouldn't have been able to save Ranka in 25 if it wasn't for Sheryl giving him her earring, the same earring that let allowed him to hear Ranka ask him to "save her". That's another example of you ignoring Sheryl's involvement in the series. Face it if Sheryl didn't ask Alto to save Ranka he would have killed her or possibly died trying.

Problem with Ranka's involvement with the Vajra is that for a good couple of episodes she was separated from him because of it. It was because of her connection with the Vajra why Ranka ended up becoming the songtress of hope for Frontier, and ended up having very little time to be near Alto. It it again because of her importance to the Vajra why Ranka leaves in episode 21 after a confession at knife point no less. Again another weak argument, that goes against the facts. The fact that Alto says that "you are both my wings" to them can be explained as him meaning that they are both important to him. He doesn't have to mean it romantically. Although this is another weak sauce point for your argument, as if you mean it romantically then it basically mean that Alto loves both Sheryl and Ranka equally, it would disprove your own views.

The reason why your "facts" are weak are because you out right ignore the involvement of other characters in the making of said scenes. You have a bit of a tunnel vision whenever it comes to Ranka, that is what makes the arguments appear delusional. If you have to ignore another character's involvement, or contribution to make the scene appear to be just about Ranka and Alto then don't make the argument. If you have to ignore or construe a fact or that is or was contrary to your point, then you should either be prepared for it be brought up and for someone to call you up on it or you don't bring up the point at all.
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Old 2009-10-29, 12:51   Link #1630
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Well, I rewatched the whole series about 3-4 times.
And at first I recognised the "Both of you are my wings" speech as nearly nothing as an illusion of undecided pairing and showing that both are important to Alto the very least. Because after all those developments with Sheryl it was impossible to not choose her.(after second rewatch I changed my opinion, but now I have the same)
Ranka had her highlight in ep 12-14 and at first he showed more care to her than Sheryl, but it's somehow partly because of Ranka's character. An innocent clumsy girl...she actually attrtacts that protective behaviour. People tend to worry about her and else because of her purity. Sheryl isn't the kind of girl you should be constantly worried of.
And also people always bringing up the date scene where Alto constantly searched for Ranka while forget the school scene where he forgets Ranka completely.The reason was the same in both episodes: Because they were on the focus. In the Date scene Ranka was missing on the who-knows-where while he had a lesuire date with a pop star. Alto isn't heartless to forget to help his friends even if a pop star is before her...and otherwise there were signs indicating other things. sam with the 8th episode: Sheryl has arrived and caused a HUGE mess...of course he focuses on her.

Episode 12-14 was the scene where actually Ranka took the lead and managed to be even with Sheryl. And in ep 15 it was like "who would win?" or "Sheryl's managed to keep up, but Ranka surely gets the lead...afterall she's the most important character plot-wise".
But after that I saw nothing...the focus shifted to Sheryl and her worsening illness...with the exception of the honorable mention of Ranka's active help to Frontier.
I think as a requiment Ranka would've needed to grow up. While she was 16 her mind was barely legal...about a 14-year-old or probably less(or the 14 years olds I knew and know are rather mature)
Because with a mindset like that she isn't capable of a serious relationship.
But to tell the truth after ep20 she had some development...but instantly after that she fled and we saw hardly a thing from it.
And then I though that either of them is going to die...but the very least it isn't happened(especially Sheryl had a huge death flag)

And in the end we get this...I was somehow frustrated by it, because I excepted a clear loss from Ranka, but a great experience and coming out smiling. Instead we have a bit unsolved love triangle. Well, at least we got the Ranka development I about to expected.
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Old 2009-10-29, 12:55   Link #1631
DeX-kun
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I'd be much more concerned if he'd went with his "don't care" demeanor, which he showed to Ranka more than a few times. "Do what you want" is not what I'd like to hear from someone I want to be in love with me. ^^
Oh, that's not fair "Do what you want" can just as easily be interpreted as "Do what you like," but it's not like he said those words with an annoyed face

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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Yeah, we are speaking of the same scene. It was another important scene in their romance, because Sheryl was trying to push Alto away, after she knew of her illness. It showed that she loved him so much, because she wanted to spare him the pain of seeing her die.
I don't know, to me it seemed more like Sheryl was trying to avoid being pitied by Alto, which is exactly what happened. I'm not sure if Sheryl was more afraid to die or more afraid of Alto's sympathy. Conveniently enough, Alto's sudden actions of "love" coincide with the revelation of Sheryl's fatal disease. In contrast, you have the conversation in episode 19 where Alto seemed more like his usual self, and then the conversation in episode 22 where Alto suddenly seems to be in "love" with her. Can you really call that love? Right after Sheryl begins to shed tears, Alto had this look of desperation on his face and so he hugs her and tells her "I'll stay with you."

Maybe that scene is a little more controversial than we originally thought. From my perspective, this just brings me back to my original point that Alto is just being caught up in his circumstances.

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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Yet at the same time Sheryl and Alto found time to have meaningful forward movement in their romance. When exactly is the next conversation between Alto and Ranka which could be considered romantic ( from your side, I made my point before what I think of it )? Episode 21. That's five ( one fifth of the entire series, near the home stretch to boot. ) episodes in which nothing happened romantically from Altos side, while Sheryl and Alto were getting closer and closer.
Meaningful, yes. Romantic progression? Maybe not so much, in my opinion that is. As for Alto and Ranka, well hey, Ranka was just as much a victim of circumstances as Sheryl. The difference being that Sheryl got to stay with Alto, in which she took full advantage. Remember that Ranka was kept pretty busy through out this whole series, that being, rising to stardom, fighting for Frontier, etc. Whereas, Sheryl already had her place in stardom and had a lot more free time to spend with him.

I also remember right before Alto had his conversation with Klan (when he was visiting Nanase I believe,) he looked at the painting of Ranka and said something like "Ranka, I..." Another questionable scene that could have gone either way, but it still makes one wonder. I do agree though, Alto and Sheryl were getting closer and closer but for Sheryl, it might have been for the wrong reasons.

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Ah, I see. Well, you won't be surprised that I disagree completely with the notion that he simply did "tell her what she wanted to hear", since I firmly believe he did tell her that he loved her in a bad round-about matter ( "A man cannot fly alone" ), but I like the way you extrapolated that this time he was thoughtful enough to remember what Sheryl told him in ep 14.
Of course, I don't expect you to agree with any of my points but it's nice to share our conflicting thoughts with each other.
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Old 2009-10-29, 13:17   Link #1632
justavisitor
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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Face it if Sheryl didn't ask Alto to save Ranka he would have killed her or possibly died trying.

Although this is another weak sauce point for your argument, as if you mean it romantically then it basically mean that Alto loves both Sheryl and Ranka equally, it would disprove your own views.

If you have to ignore or construe a fact or that is or was contrary to your point, then you should either be prepared for it be brought up and for someone to call you up on it or you don't bring up the point at all.
I don't wanna have a long post so I will just focus on your three points

1. I think what you say is false...and I guess I did explain it in my previous post..he "tried" to do it but he instantly changed his mind when he faced a controlled Ranka..he kept asking why? but he never was able to "kill" Ranka...In my opinion, he can't pull the trigger with or without Sheryl's advice. If he can pull the trigger so easily, then what he said "Both of you are my wings" will be laughable

2. Hold on, how can I debunk my argument when I always support polygamy in MF (check my old posts) ?? I care a lot more about Ranka X Alto...if Alto also loves Sheryl then good we have a polygamy and that's fine with me..so Alto loves both Sheryl and Ranka equally would not disprove my own views..but of course I care mainly how Alto feels about Ranka and I find that in this series, they have mutual romantic feeling

3. I never try to ignore anyone, I concentrate on talking about someone, and this topic is about Ranka...I will mention about other character when I feel it's appropriate...if you read my previous post, or the post that you quoted me, you will find that I also mention Sheryl in my post...if you feel I have to mention Sheryl in every sentence while talking about Ranka, then sorry I am not used to do this...while at it, you may as well also mention Luca, Micheal, Klan, pilot A, pilot B, Vajra #1, etc...coz they are all in the battle scenes and it seems like you don't wanna ignore them either XD

forget it, we will never convince each other, so I will let it go
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To all old and new Sheryl fans:
I am a Ranka fan and I have significant experience in defending various "crimes" committed by Ranka, from her evil plan to terminate human races, to feeding inapporiate food to unknown lifeforms. If you think you find "new" charges aginst Ranka and you are interested, or you care to see how a particular Ranka fan would respond, please feel free to check my previous comment. There is a good chance that I have answered a similiar issue. And of course, my viewpoints do not necessarily represent other perspectivs from numerous Ranka fans in this planet
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Old 2009-10-29, 13:42   Link #1633
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Oh, that's not fair "Do what you want" can just as easily be interpreted as "Do what you like," but it's not like he said those words with an annoyed face
Yeah, that wasn't fair. Alto made that comment two times when he actually was sharing a nice moment with Ranka. But he *did* have his "Meh, who cares?" moments earlier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
I don't know, to me it seemed more like Sheryl was trying to avoid being pitied by Alto, which is exactly what happened. I'm not sure if Sheryl was more afraid to die or more afraid of Alto's sympathy. Conveniently enough, Alto's sudden actions of "love" coincide with the revelation of Sheryl's fatal disease. In contrast, you have the conversation in episode 19 where Alto seemed more like his usual self, and then the conversation in episode 22 where Alto suddenly seems to be in "love" with her. Can you really call that love? Right after Sheryl begins to shed tears, Alto had this look of desperation on his face and so he hugs her and tells her "I'll stay with you."
Pretty much everyone here ( on the Sheryl side ) agreed back then that it was Sheryl trying to spare Alto from worrying about her. It was pretty much the point of the Sheryl/Klan/Michael conversation in the library.

However, I can admit that Sheryl probably partly did not want to be pitied, either.

As to the conversations, I already said that Alto obtaining knowledge of Sheryls sickness did veer the romance into a less desirable direction. I think it goes without saying that Alto went easier on Sheryl after their night together.

The whole point is, of course, that Alto already cared for her "that way" before episode 22.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
Maybe that scene is a little more controversial than we originally thought. From my perspective, this just brings me back to my original point that Alto is just being caught up in his circumstances.
*Everybody* is caught up in his or her circumstances. Geeze. ^^ Don't follow the Yasaburo, he will lead you to his Keikaku Dori.

Again, of course I'd have preferred if Alto would have chosen Sheryl clearer and earlier on, but since Ranka took a hike to Vajratown, the writers had to keep the romance open-ended.

Btw, how do explain Altos "A man cannot fly alone" confession away? I'd really like to know how a Ranka-shipper interprets it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
Meaningful, yes. Romantic progression? Maybe not so much, in my opinion that is. As for Alto and Ranka, well hey, Ranka was just as much a victim of circumstances as Sheryl. The difference being that Sheryl got to stay with Alto, in which she took full advantage. Remember that Ranka was kept pretty busy through out this whole series, that being, rising to stardom, fighting for Frontier, etc. Whereas, Sheryl already had her place in stardom and had a lot more free time to spend with him.
Yeah, which brings me back to my original point, that they dropped the ball on the Alto / Ranka front. There is a distinct lack of reciprocation from Alto, while he had tons of reactions toward Sheryl. Before him knowing of her illness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
I also remember right before Alto had his conversation with Klan (when he was visiting Nanase I believe,) he looked at the painting of Ranka and said something like "Ranka, I..." Another questionable scene that could have gone either way, but it still makes one wonder. I do agree though, Alto and Sheryl were getting closer and closer but for Sheryl, it might have been for the wrong reasons.
Erm, you know that this was set-up for the reveal that Alto used Ranka as his excuse to be a fighter pilot, right? ^^ The correlation of him sitting with Nanase, her big painting of Ranka and him being in thoughts about Yasaburos last attempt to sway him from being a fighter pilot and the rooftop conversation is, like, directly there. I really don't see how that could be interpreted as "romantic thoughts about Ranka".

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
Of course, I don't expect you to agree with any of my points but it's nice to share our conflicting thoughts with each other.
Sure, keep it coming, this has been a very stimulating conversation so far.
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Old 2009-10-29, 14:00   Link #1634
Irisiel
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The problem with Ranka is that she isn't mentally mature enough to start a relationship with anyone.

As willyvereb said, she arouses protective feelings in the people around her, Alto being no exception.

Just look at how Michel took her on a date, gave her the opportunity to sing (thus meeting Elmo), proclaimed himself her number one fan, tried to make Alto realise any feelings for her ("What is Ranka-chan to you?"), went into enemy territory on the off-chance that she would be able to sing the enemies into submission...

Ozma adopted her, worked his ass off to get her into an exclusive school, put up with her apathy and amnesia...

Bobby comforted her, looked out for her interests as an idol...

Nanase and Brera... Well, their very existences orbited around her.

Sheryl tried to help Ranka by giving her a spot on the TV, told Alto to save Ranka...

And Alto did about the same things as them, he just happened to be the one Ranka crushed on.

It is very telling about her emotional maturity when all she can think about is Alto and Sheryl on a rooftop after she watched Michel (you know, the guy who supported her through everything, even betting his own life on her song) die right after confessing his love to Klan.

It is very telling about her mental maturity when she is so incapable of planning ahead and seeing what others do for her. Thrown out of the exclusive school Ozma worked his ass off to get her into? "Oniichan, you're a jerk! *throws heavy pans at his head*" That's not even a rational response to an issue she *knew* would come up. Not realising how helpless Frontier is without a songstress against the Vajra...

In Ranka's mind, there's "Here." "Now." "Me." and any other topics becomes small stuff. This doesn't make her evil, it makes her a child.

And children should not have romantic relationships with people who have already moved beyond childhood.

Sure, Ranka is capable of being nice, but it isn't hard to be nice to people and creatures who all bend over backwards to help, support and love her.

The only one we see her interact with someone who most definitely don't like her, Miranda, she withdraws and it's Sheryl who puts Miranda in her place.

Ranka just doesn't have the maturity to stick up for herself and not feel down just because a rival told her not to ruin the rival's movie, and in a relationship there's a lot more emotional investment.

Just a few of my thoughts.
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Old 2009-10-29, 18:20   Link #1635
wisteria233
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Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
I don't wanna have a long post so I will just focus on your three points

1. I think what you say is false...and I guess I did explain it in my previous post..he "tried" to do it but he instantly changed his mind when he faced a controlled Ranka..he kept asking why? but he never was able to "kill" Ranka...In my opinion, he can't pull the trigger with or without Sheryl's advice. If he can pull the trigger so easily, then what he said "Both of you are my wings" will be laughable

2. Hold on, how can I debunk my argument when I always support polygamy in MF (check my old posts) ?? I care a lot more about Ranka X Alto...if Alto also loves Sheryl then good we have a polygamy and that's fine with me..so Alto loves both Sheryl and Ranka equally would not disprove my own views..but of course I care mainly how Alto feels about Ranka and I find that in this series, they have mutual romantic feeling

3. I never try to ignore anyone, I concentrate on talking about someone, and this topic is about Ranka...I will mention about other character when I feel it's appropriate...if you read my previous post, or the post that you quoted me, you will find that I also mention Sheryl in my post...if you feel I have to mention Sheryl in every sentence while talking about Ranka, then sorry I am not used to do this...while at it, you may as well also mention Luca, Micheal, Klan, pilot A, pilot B, Vajra #1, etc...coz they are all in the battle scenes and it seems like you don't wanna ignore them either XD

forget it, we will never convince each other, so I will let it go
1. Problem is that Alto himself said that he would kill her, if she was working against Frontier. It is a fact that Alto himself said. No one is messing with that. It is also a fact that Sheryl asked him in the next episode to help Ranka. It was Sheryl who asked him not to. Him saying later on "You are both my wings", does not erase the fact that he declared that he would kill Ranka, it doesn't absolve that fact.

2. Wasn't it you who said that the only reason why Alto took care of Sheryl was because she was sick and not because he cared about her? By admitting that you think Alto meant "You are both my wings" romantically you basically admit that Alto took care of Sheryl not because he felt sorry for her, but because he loved her.

3. No need to get upset now. The reason why I pointed that out but you did ignore it, even if you didn't mean to. If other characters are key players in orchestrating the scene then you shouldn't just ignore them all for the sake of your argument. The problem with you're arguments that make them so easy to debunk, is the fact that you only focus on Ranka, instead of the scene itself. Before you use a scene as a point you should just look at the full context of the scene, don't just focus on one character. You should also never mix up a opinion with fact, which is what you're doing. For instance you did say

Quote:
The longer answer is that on the contrary, I find that Ranka and Alto are always helping each other. Alto saves Ranka in ep 1..Ranka indirectly saves Alto in ep 7...Ranka saves Alto in ep 12...and since than Ranka has been the trump card from ep 14?? to ep 21...Alto and other air forces have to depend on her help! And in ep 25, Alto saves Ranka and Ranka immediately helps back by singing and use "action" to encourage Sheryl to sing and help the Frontier XD
and then
Quote:
I actually enjoy relationship that is helping each other, and I find that element in RankaxAlto relationship...Ranka has been frequently helping Alto and MF in battlefield and yet Sheryl only helps Alto in battlefield in ep 24?? (I am not a Sheryl fan so sorry if I remember something wrong about her) and well I guess I can also count that incident where Sheryl pilots Micheal's plane in an insane manner XD
The facts that you neglected were that Sheryl was singing with Ranka in episode 7. In fact said scene happened because Sheryl gave Alto one of her earrings. Not only that but it was Sheryl's voice who reached him as first as he was about to lose consciousness. Also in episode one Alto barely even knew who Ranka was so bad analogy right there. In episode 21 Frontier was overrun by the Vajra, and Ranka's previous attempts to calm them only made it worse, not only that but Alto was more focused on killing the Vajra who had just killed his best friend, not on Ranka. Another fact is that Ranka was just doing the job, that she should have done properly before. Also again in episode 25 Ranka's life was saved because Sheryl essentially begged him to, and even gave him her plot device earring(which he still didn't return to her). Sheryl was also singing before Ranka even woke up from the mind control, so another bad analogy. The only point I can give you a break on episode 12, and even that can be argued.

Your second argument was also weak as it ignored all the other, as you did basically ignore episodes 7, 24, and 25. The point you made about Sheryl not being able to fly a Valkyrie was also weak because you ignored the fact that Sheryl was a beginner so she was of course not expected to do well on her first try. It is also a point that could easily been used against as I showed in my response. That's what I meant when I said that you were construing the facts to suit yourself.
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Old 2009-10-29, 18:48   Link #1636
willyvereb
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Actually Sheryl did somehow well...or her insane luck? I don't know but being a rookie and half-losing the control she still managed to survive.

And about Alto: When Ranka left he chose Frontier instead of her which is further confirmed in ep23's end when he claimed he'll kill her if she turns on the Humanity. We're unsure what would be Alto's answer if Sheryl asks him to come with her, but first of all she wouldn't force him to do that. She doesn't want Alto to sacrafice anything for her.
And yes she used her time with Alto to it's fullest after he discovered her disease, but she just wanted her few remaining months to be spent the best. In the end she even apologises for it.

Anyways we should end the "who suits Alto better debate". It's obvious anyway, but the thing: "With whom Alto is in love more?". We always tend to confuse those two questions and merge them...
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Old 2009-10-29, 19:19   Link #1637
magnuskn
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Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
Anyways we should end the "who suits Alto better debate". It's obvious anyway, but the thing: "With whom Alto is in love more?". We always tend to confuse those two questions and merge them...
Well, I was debating about the latter. Although your line of question should be "Whom does Alto love romantically?".
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Old 2009-10-29, 19:43   Link #1638
mechabao
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/delurk

"Infatuation" is the word that comes to mind when talking about Ranka x Alto.

/relurk
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Old 2009-10-30, 02:30   Link #1639
ReddyRedWolf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
Actually Sheryl did somehow well...or her insane luck? I don't know but being a rookie and half-losing the control she still managed to survive.

And about Alto: When Ranka left he chose Frontier instead of her which is further confirmed in ep23's end when he claimed he'll kill her if she turns on the Humanity. We're unsure what would be Alto's answer if Sheryl asks him to come with her, but first of all she wouldn't force him to do that. She doesn't want Alto to sacrafice anything for her.
And yes she used her time with Alto to it's fullest after he discovered her disease, but she just wanted her few remaining months to be spent the best. In the end she even apologises for it.

Anyways we should end the "who suits Alto better debate". It's obvious anyway, but the thing: "With whom Alto is in love more?". We always tend to confuse those two questions and merge them...
Interesting if in the movie it is a reversal of roles. With Sheryl being suspected as a spy for Macross Galaxy.
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Old 2009-10-30, 11:08   Link #1640
ippus
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