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Old 2009-10-29, 05:48   Link #181
tsunade666
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About the thing that accelerator touch. His still touching it as a whole. The body of the person and its all connected as long as its not outside of the body.

And touma can still stop railgun but even he stop the power of it the momentum that has been inputted on the coin will still hurt him.... I think.

And what's the point of arguing real life physics on a fictional work. Even though its been suggested as psifi and has science applied its still funny to question it to much based on your own knowledge of stuff.
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Old 2009-10-29, 09:35   Link #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
About the thing that accelerator touch. His still touching it as a whole. The body of the person and its all connected as long as its not outside of the body.

And touma can still stop railgun but even he stop the power of it the momentum that has been inputted on the coin will still hurt him.... I think.

And what's the point of arguing real life physics on a fictional work. Even though its been suggested as psifi and has science applied its still funny to question it to much based on your own knowledge of stuff.
Because some people will feel uneasy about the stuff happening xD Like the recent darker than black episode.
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Old 2009-10-29, 11:56   Link #183
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Science also teaches you what is not possible. Physics demonstrates why things don't work. And biological precision, capacity, and conception are dwarfed by the infinite variables that have an effect on anything.
Uhuh... Teach me what you know then, and explain systematically how such things are not physically possible (take my post on how Misaka's railgun works a few pages back as an example) -- since what I know states otherwise.
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Old 2009-10-29, 13:53   Link #184
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Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
About the thing that accelerator touch. His still touching it as a whole. The body of the person and its all connected as long as its not outside of the body.
This is actually a question of metaphysics. What defines an object as separate from it's surroundings? Scientifically speaking, it's all just a bunch of subatomic particles floating around in a void. Based on the logic of touching a "person", why isn't he touching the "atmosphere"? The world? The universe? By that logic he can do anything he wants to anything at infinite range.

Conversely, if that doesn't work, then he's not touching anything. Particles rarely touch each other. What we think of as touch is simply electromagnetic repulsion by electrons. If he can't treat objects as arbitrarily connected, then he can't use his power on anything. Even if we assume some arbitrary small range he has for his power, that doesn't explain how he can affect the entirety of large objects like the steel bars he was throwing around. By all logic, he should only be able to make the tiny part of it he was close to move, although maybe the rest can be dragged around. That's not what happened though. If that's what happened they would've bent in rather odd ways.

This, I think, is the best evidence of any that psychic powers work more on what the user thinks they can than any rationally arguable limitations.
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Old 2009-10-30, 07:26   Link #185
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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
Didn't we establish that Touma can probably block it because he thinks he can? I feel like you're applying the "lolanimephysics" to the wrong side of the situation.
As has been discussed before, a railgun is a fire and forget weapon: once fired, there's nothing effecting the shot, exactly like Accelerator's I-beam barrage. It is simply a 21st century catapult, and exactly the thing Touma should not be able to stop once fired.

Touma can stop Railgun's 'railgun', however, even though he has never been able to stop other purely momentum-based weapons. The simplest answer is that Railgun's 'railgun' isn't a real railgun; it simulates, but it keeps psychic power in it even in-route. Which a railgun doesn't.

Touma's power* can only nullify the supernatural/things under supernatural effect.

*Which may not even be a physic one, strictly speaking, because it happens without his will or consent, though all other psychic powers are controllable.
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Originally Posted by Ice Block View Post
Uhuh... Teach me what you know then, and explain systematically how such things are not physically possible (take my post on how Misaka's railgun works a few pages back as an example) -- since what I know states otherwise.
Did you forget your physics class?

A whip of iron sands can be manipulated by two ways: the magnetic fields off of herself, or the magnetic fields from running a current through the sands.

A field off of herself is ridiculous to anyone who's seen what the field lines of a magnetic field at distance are. They quickly even out, become round, and are drastically weakened because of the inverse square relationship between a field source and the magnetic force on a point. (As in, it weakens at a rate of 1/r^2, r being distance.) You can not manipulate something as wild, uneven, as a whip from distance: the field would not support it physically or coherently.

Running electricity through the iron sands is comedic. Not only is that the process of turning iron sands into glass (fulgurites), it suffers gross ignorance of how wire fields act upon eachother. Each element of the wire produces it's field. As the whip is extended (by any means), the relationship radically shifts in the space of from how it was when the whip was drawn in, doubled in on itself. Any theoretical attempt to make it snap would require more continuous calculations and alterations than the computer you're reading this could keep up with, let alone any human mind however altered.

Any actual attempt to strengthen the current to make the field strength stronger would see your 'whip' collapse as the iron sands move closer to the source of the field as more and more of your sand turn to glass.

Last edited by Dean_the_Young; 2009-10-30 at 07:46.
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Old 2009-10-30, 07:31   Link #186
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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
This is actually a question of metaphysics. What defines an object as separate from it's surroundings? Scientifically speaking, it's all just a bunch of subatomic particles floating around in a void. Based on the logic of touching a "person", why isn't he touching the "atmosphere"? The world? The universe? By that logic he can do anything he wants to anything at infinite range.

Conversely, if that doesn't work, then he's not touching anything. Particles rarely touch each other. What we think of as touch is simply electromagnetic repulsion by electrons. If he can't treat objects as arbitrarily connected, then he can't use his power on anything. Even if we assume some arbitrary small range he has for his power, that doesn't explain how he can affect the entirety of large objects like the steel bars he was throwing around. By all logic, he should only be able to make the tiny part of it he was close to move, although maybe the rest can be dragged around. That's not what happened though. If that's what happened they would've bent in rather odd ways.

This, I think, is the best evidence of any that psychic powers work more on what the user thinks they can than any rationally arguable limitations.
This.

Just looking at the case of changing brain electrons. To do so, Accelerator would have to bypass: any hair he was touching, the multiple layers of skin (epidermis, dermis, hypodermis), the skull itself, and the dura itself (the brain sac that covers the the brain and separates it from other things) even before he could get to the brain itself.

In order to manipulate electrons in the brain, he has to go between many, many layers of separate coverings.
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Old 2009-10-30, 18:44   Link #187
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
This.

Just looking at the case of changing brain electrons. To do so, Accelerator would have to bypass: any hair he was touching, the multiple layers of skin (epidermis, dermis, hypodermis), the skull itself, and the dura itself (the brain sac that covers the the brain and separates it from other things) even before he could get to the brain itself.

In order to manipulate electrons in the brain, he has to go between many, many layers of separate coverings.
So with those complex calculations he didn't have enough to redirect the bullet coming of Amai Ao gun.
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Old 2009-10-31, 03:41   Link #188
tsunade666
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I would be surprised if he can even manage to reflect it given the situation and the calculation his doing. Doing molecular level calculation within the brain is hard enough to even imagine.

And yes if he can touch the whole atmosphere as one then his completely invisible and his power lies infinite but for some reason he can't maybe if he can reach level 6.
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Old 2009-10-31, 16:49   Link #189
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Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
I would be surprised if he can even manage to reflect it given the situation and the calculation his doing. Doing molecular level calculation within the brain is hard enough to even imagine.

And yes if he can touch the whole atmosphere as one then his completely invisible and his power lies infinite but for some reason he can't maybe if he can reach level 6.
Sadly we will never know, being that now he lost most of his power...
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Old 2009-10-31, 23:40   Link #190
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The whole argument exemplifies the notion that people believe what they want, rather than what the facts are.

Really, there is not anything inconsistent when ALL of the sources- manga and anime, clearly showing Touma repelling the railgun attack.

The reason why the Imagine Breaker can negate Mikoto's railgun but not Accelerator's steel bars is simple: Accelerator applied his Vector Change to lift the steel bars upwards- NOT towards Touma, therefore the momentum driving those steel bars at the moment prior to the bars hitting Touma is a resultant of gravitational force and not of any esper ability. On the other hand the force which propels the coins comes from Mikoto's electro-magnetism. Another noteworthy point is that the steel bars are launched in an AoE fashion, so even if they are blockable it would be impossible to block all of them without getting crushed by any of the stray bars. Hence evading them would be a wiser choice.
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Old 2009-11-01, 06:01   Link #191
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First, let me just say that Imagine Breaker was never confirmed to be Psychic in nature. Neither is it Magical or Divine. It's something unknown that I guess the author will elaborate more on as the series nears its conclusion.

Did everyone forget about the AIM Field the characters seldom talk about? The way I see it, psychics are ranked according to the "size" of their AIM "bubble" and their computational speed/capacity/accuracy. For example, there is another teleporter who doesn't need physical contact -- this one almost became the 8th LVL5. we can assume that this person's AIM bubble(s) is/are bigger than Kuroko's in several ways (range, target acquisition/recognition, tracing, rendering, etc.). On Accelerator's case, yes he has an amazing brain. No wonder he'd need over 9000 brains to power his vector-altering calculations when his own brain got damaged.

Anyway, arguing about how psychics invoke their powers and the amount of computation needed to maintain them would never lead to any conclusion. It's like talking about time travel -- no RL time travelers, no definite, all encompassing way to explain time travel mechanics and paradox formation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
A whip of iron sands can be manipulated by two ways: the magnetic fields off of herself, or the magnetic fields from running a current through the sands.

A field off of herself is ridiculous to anyone who's seen what the field lines of a magnetic field at distance are. They quickly even out, become round, and are drastically weakened because of the inverse square relationship between a field source and the magnetic force on a point. (As in, it weakens at a rate of 1/r^2, r being distance.) You can not manipulate something as wild, uneven, as a whip from distance: the field would not support it physically or coherently.

Running electricity through the iron sands is comedic. Not only is that the process of turning iron sands into glass (fulgurites), it suffers gross ignorance of how wire fields act upon eachother. Each element of the wire produces it's field. As the whip is extended (by any means), the relationship radically shifts in the space of from how it was when the whip was drawn in, doubled in on itself. Any theoretical attempt to make it snap would require more continuous calculations and alterations than the computer you're reading this could keep up with, let alone any human mind however altered.

Any actual attempt to strengthen the current to make the field strength stronger would see your 'whip' collapse as the iron sands move closer to the source of the field as more and more of your sand turn to glass.
I see. However, we should note that her ability involves the control of electromagnetic forces, thus involving strength and directional control of currents in intricate ways to form beautifully complex magnetic fields. How she does it is beyond everyone (as I stated above) -- we can only say she's a LVL5 because she's able to do such. Anyway, a few quick questions:
  • Fulgurites are formed when molten matter (usually from sand particles, silica etc.) on a conductive surface is supercooled (from thousands of oC to melting point and below in less than a second). Given this scenario, supercooling would only occur when the iron sword-whip contacts with IB. However, does glass formation still occur when only pure iron is present in your system?
  • For the first scenario you presented... Let's say we have an electromagnet running along the core/center of the iron sword-whip. This is basically a current coiled around a more compact blob of iron dust. This however, will not account for the rapidly vibrating iron particles on the outer parts of the weapon... unless the electromagnet's core's particles are constantly being replaced and cycled throughout the system to prevent iron grain/dust particle fusion (maintaining individual particle weight)?
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Old 2009-11-03, 04:27   Link #192
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Originally Posted by Rydrallen View Post
The whole argument exemplifies the notion that people believe what they want, rather than what the facts are.

Really, there is not anything inconsistent when ALL of the sources- manga and anime, clearly showing Touma repelling the railgun attack.

The reason why the Imagine Breaker can negate Mikoto's railgun but not Accelerator's steel bars is simple: Accelerator applied his Vector Change to lift the steel bars upwards- NOT towards Touma, therefore the momentum driving those steel bars at the moment prior to the bars hitting Touma is a resultant of gravitational force and not of any esper ability. On the other hand the force which propels the coins comes from Mikoto's electro-magnetism. Another noteworthy point is that the steel bars are launched in an AoE fashion, so even if they are blockable it would be impossible to block all of them without getting crushed by any of the stray bars. Hence evading them would be a wiser choice.
This is exactly how I would explain his powers. It doesnt matter if you fire&forget it, you are still somehow controlling it with your power, thus the connection with your ability. As long as this is the case Touma can block anything fired at him. This is also true for that huge plasma ball that Accelerator wanted to fire at him when people assumed he couldnt
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Old 2009-11-03, 07:11   Link #193
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Originally Posted by Eisdrache View Post
This is exactly how I would explain his powers. It doesnt matter if you fire&forget it, you are still somehow controlling it with your power, thus the connection with your ability. As long as this is the case Touma can block anything fired at him. This is also true for that huge plasma ball that Accelerator wanted to fire at him when people assumed he couldnt
And the only reason why Touma didn't block that plasma ball is because Accelerator didn't even get to fire it at him. Well, even with his unthinkable Imagine Breaker ability, I guess Misaka was worried at that time "what if he didn't manage to stop the attack?"

... Guess the audience's not the only ones outside the fourth wall to assume that Touma couldn't block it...
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Old 2009-11-03, 15:36   Link #194
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Originally Posted by Eisdrache View Post
This is exactly how I would explain his powers. It doesnt matter if you fire&forget it, you are still somehow controlling it with your power, thus the connection with your ability. As long as this is the case Touma can block anything fired at him. This is also true for that huge plasma ball that Accelerator wanted to fire at him when people assumed he couldnt
Except for actual, gunpowder-propelled, completely power-neutral bullets from Anti-Skill. I feel that this is about the only thing he can't block.

Another thing I'm thinking of is whether Touma can block Kuroko's needles. Sure, he can stop her powers just by touching her, but as long as she avoids it (which is easy as long as she isn't taken by surprise) and doesn't aim for his right arm, can't she theoretically just materialize deadly objects inside his vital organs and kill him?

I'm wondering why because a natural side plot (which the author will never write) is that Kuroko will become so jealous that she will attempt to kill Touma. Even knowing her limits I don't think Touma can reasonably stop her.
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Old 2009-11-03, 20:31   Link #195
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Originally Posted by Claies View Post
Except for actual, gunpowder-propelled, completely power-neutral bullets from Anti-Skill. I feel that this is about the only thing he can't block.
We have evidence he can't block nun's teeth.
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Old 2009-11-04, 07:58   Link #196
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He can, but he would risk losing some fingers in the process.
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Old 2009-11-05, 01:33   Link #197
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Another thing I'm thinking of is whether Touma can block Kuroko's needles. Sure, he can stop her powers just by touching her, but as long as she avoids it (which is easy as long as she isn't taken by surprise) and doesn't aim for his right arm, can't she theoretically just materialize deadly objects inside his vital organs and kill him?
on paper it would appear that she would be able to easily kill him by simply avoiding the right arm

though if we look into specifics i don't think there's an accurate description of how her ability works when teleporting objects into other ones
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Old 2009-11-05, 10:27   Link #198
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Except for actual, gunpowder-propelled, completely power-neutral bullets from Anti-Skill. I feel that this is about the only thing he can't block.

Another thing I'm thinking of is whether Touma can block Kuroko's needles. Sure, he can stop her powers just by touching her, but as long as she avoids it (which is easy as long as she isn't taken by surprise) and doesn't aim for his right arm, can't she theoretically just materialize deadly objects inside his vital organs and kill him?

I'm wondering why because a natural side plot (which the author will never write) is that Kuroko will become so jealous that she will attempt to kill Touma. Even knowing her limits I don't think Touma can reasonably stop her.
Please with Touma's bad luck it might convince her to go for a threesome instead.

In the back of Kuruko's mind she's asking "What does Oneesama see in this guy?".

Which is why she let Touma in her dorm. Almost suffering punishment from the dorm manager.

She hasn't seen Touma yet in preachy hero mode.
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Old 2009-11-05, 11:56   Link #199
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I think that Kuroko can't teleport Touma because she is calculating to teleport his whole body. Thas a logic way to think it.
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Old 2009-11-05, 19:44   Link #200
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I think that Kuroko can't teleport Touma because she is calculating to teleport his whole body. Thas a logic way to think it.
She was holding his right arm at that time. That was all. I don't think the "catch his right arm" coincidences aren't a very good idea, because it invites the reader's curiosity of "but what if it wasn't the right arm?" And then the author may simply not address it.
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