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Old 2009-11-01, 00:28   Link #61
marvelB
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
...He'll already be dead....

I've actually had that thought, myself. Still, there's been nothing to suggest that he's dead in the manga's storyline so far.....



However, if Shiki is still alive in the manga, then he'd undoubtedly be a Yonkou-level opponent, since he was known to be as legendary a pirate as Roger and Whitebeard. Of course, even if he's Luffy's enemy in the movie, the same may not hold true for the manga......
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Old 2009-11-01, 01:10   Link #62
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I've actually had that thought, myself. Still, there's been nothing to suggest that he's dead in the manga's storyline so far.....
There's nothing to suggest he is alive....

For example, when we talk about Magellan sailing the 7 Seas, we do not preface the statement by saying "When Magellan was alive...", no we simply say that he sailed the 7 Seas. Shiki has only been addressed as a man that broke free of Impel Down (somehow, for all we know he could have had help escaping, ala Naruto and friends), nothing has been said to indicate that he did much else afterwards...

In other words, it is just as likely for him to be alive in the manga, as it is for him to be dead...

Then again, he is probably alive kicking it with some homies in Zihuatanejo (cause that's where you go after escaping from prison)...


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However, if Shiki is still alive in the manga, then he'd undoubtedly be a Yonkou-level opponent, since he was known to be as legendary a pirate as Roger and Whitebeard. Of course, even if he's Luffy's enemy in the movie, the same may not hold true for the manga......
Again, why? There is certainly no doubing that Shiki is legendary, but so is Robin (and arguably Ace and Luffy), and her (their) powers are not Yonkou level. Being legendary, like having a high bounty, does not specifically mean uber strength. For example, Buggy will be legendary after this upcoming arc is over, but he will never be able to stand toe-to-toe with the Big Dogs.

In the end, Shiki will undoubtedly be strong, but I seriously doubt that he will actually be of a similar level to Whitebeard or Roger (or Shanks, Mihawk, Garp, Sengoku, etc), otherwise any lose he may have with Luffy and company would be too plot-contrived, in fact so plot contrived that a miniture black hole will form in the theatres because of the sheer suckage involved in making a Yonkou level opponent lose to a current version of Luffy...
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Old 2009-11-01, 08:14   Link #63
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In the end, Shiki will undoubtedly be strong, but I seriously doubt that he will actually be of a similar level to Whitebeard or Roger (or Shanks, Mihawk, Garp, Sengoku, etc), otherwise any lose he may have with Luffy and company would be too plot-contrived, in fact so plot contrived that a miniture black hole will form in the theatres because of the sheer suckage involved in making a Yonkou level opponent lose to a current version of Luffy...
That's nothing new, quite frankly. Luffy should have lost to two warlords (Crocodile and Moria) but he had to win because he's the main character. That was the main factor as to why he won; he had plot protection. It's not like he was superior to them in overall fighting power.

Also, who says that Shiki has to lose? For someone of his stature, it would be a refreshing end if he and Luffy part ways acknowledging and respecting each other as worthy pirates. Luffy's primary objective is to rescue Nami. He doesn't necessarily have to defeat the antagonist to do that.
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Old 2009-11-01, 12:45   Link #64
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Also, who says that Shiki has to lose? For someone of his stature, it would be a refreshing end if he and Luffy part ways acknowledging and respecting each other as worthy pirates. Luffy's primary objective is to rescue Nami. He doesn't necessarily have to defeat the antagonist to do that.
While I do not agree at all with your first paragraph, there is some merit to this paragraph. The only real problem I have with it is the fact that the movie would be pretty damn boring if Luffy doesn't defeat the big bad. If Shiki is the big bad, then he needs to be defeated, but that doesn't mean that the trailer couldn't be a red herring, and someone else could be the real big bad...
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Old 2009-11-01, 23:56   Link #65
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Again, why? There is certainly no doubing that Shiki is legendary, but so is Robin (and arguably Ace and Luffy), and her (their) powers are not Yonkou level. Being legendary, like having a high bounty, does not specifically mean uber strength. For example, Buggy will be legendary after this upcoming arc is over, but he will never be able to stand toe-to-toe with the Big Dogs.


Well, there's a pretty big difference between Buggy, who started out as a small-time pirate in East Blue (which is considered to be the weakest of the 4 blue seas,) and is now gaining infamy because of a string of blunders, and Shiki, who was spoke of as being a legendary pirate by the likes of people like Whitebeard, Garp, and Sengoku. Of course, I understand your point - that Shiki's reputation may be a weeee bit exaggerated. But I kinda doubt that Oda would be going through all of this trouble to explain Shiki's backstory to us in these special manga chapters/anime episodes just to ultimately prove that the guy was nothing special.



Now, as much as I don't like to admit it, Shiki most likely will be nerfed for the movie. However, rather than blaming that on plot contrivance, I'd blame that on length..... after all, a 2-hour movie can't really cover the same amount of content as a mega-arc that spans several chapters/episodes, can it? However, the way I see it, that'll make his presence in the manga all the more impactful (whether he's still alive or not), since Oda can flesh out the character in the manga much more than he can in an all-too-brief movie storyline. In a way, I'd say that Oda could handle Shiki completely opposite of.... oh, say someone like General Grievous from Star Wars Episode III (who went from being a Jedi-slaying badass in the Clone Wars cartoon, to ultimately getting jobbed by Obi-Wan in the movie itself. Boy, did he disappoint me.....).





Also, as I mentioned before, even if Shiki's alive in the manga, he doesn't necessarily have to be Luffy's enemy. If anything, he could be a retired pirate like Rayleigh who'd rather lend a hand to the new generation instead of dwelling on past glories. But I guess only time will tell how Oda will handle the character in the future.......




And.... yeah, I also sort of disagree about the whole thing about Luffy losing to Croc and Moria. Yeah, Luffy did make use of a couple of handy plot devices to beat them, but he still struggled to win in the end. His victories weren't exactly handed over to him or anything......
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Old 2009-11-02, 15:17   Link #66
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I just had a thought:

If the timeline in volume 0 took place in Gol D. Roger's era, we could probably find out about how Whitebeard became a Yonkou along with Shanks and Kaidou. And the best part is- we could possibly see who the fourth Yonkou is.
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Old 2009-11-02, 19:46   Link #67
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I just had a thought:

If the timeline in volume 0 took place in Gol D. Roger's era, we could probably find out about how Whitebeard became a Yonkou along with Shanks and Kaidou. And the best part is- we could possibly see who the fourth Yonkou is.
There's no way Shanks was an emperor back then. During that time he was a mere cabin boy on Roger's crew and he was only 15 years old. That being said, he couldn't have been very powerful and enough of a threat for the WG to acknowledge him as one of the rulers of the New World.

As for the Yonkou, we're not even sure if the 3 party system existed back then. The marines certainly were around dealing out justice to pirates, but it's unknown if the Shichibukai and Yonkou had been established as factions of power during Roger's era.

@James - I think your logic of what constitutes boring is somewhat flawed. Even if the hero doesn't win against the villain, the movie/story can still be very entertaining. Let's say that Luffy and Shiki have a fight of epic proportions and the result is a stalemate. Do you mean to tell me that outcome would spoil the film for you? Come on now; that doesn't justify a film as being boring. If anything, it would be more interesting for Luffy to not emerge as the victor. Such an ending would deviate from the same old "Good guy beats bad guy" routine. It's always good to have originality, which makes something one of a kind.
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Old 2009-11-02, 20:03   Link #68
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@James - I think your logic of what constitutes boring is somewhat flawed. Even if the hero doesn't win against the villain, the movie/story can still be very entertaining. Let's say that Luffy and Shiki have a fight of epic proportions and the result is a stalemate. Do you mean to tell me that outcome would spoil the film for you? Come on now; that doesn't justify a film as being boring. If anything, it would be more interesting for Luffy to not emerge as the victor. Such an ending would deviate from the same old "Good guy beats bad guy" routine. It's always good to have originality, which makes something one of a kind.
A stalemate only works if a new threat emerges (as I already highlighted), or there is sufficient development to allow for neither opponent to win. For example, in the later scenario, Miyata and Ippo need never actually defeat the other (or we need not see said defeat, only the fight), or, to use a completed series, we do not need to see who won in the fight between Kazuma and Ryuho, because that is not what the series are about. A movie though, which doesn't have the time to adequately develop the new characters enough, cannot justifiably allow a stalemate unless a new villain is introduced that forces the 2 characters to stop their fight. Otherwise, there is a lack of a sufficient conclusion to the story being told (i.e. Shiki's actions become pointless if he simply changes his mind a half-hour later). A movie's time does not allow for a stalemate...
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Old 2009-11-02, 21:03   Link #69
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A stalemate only works if a new threat emerges (as I already highlighted), or there is sufficient development to allow for neither opponent to win. A movie though, which doesn't have the time to adequately develop the new characters enough, cannot justifiably allow a stalemate unless a new villain is introduced that forces the 2 characters to stop their fight. Otherwise, there is a lack of a sufficient conclusion to the story being told (i.e. Shiki's actions become pointless if he simply changes his mind a half-hour later). A movie's time does not allow for a stalemate...
You make it sound like these are rules that films need to abide by.

Having a new threat that suddenly emerges out of nowhere and forces the two combatants to join forces is cliché. That's been done so many times before.

A movie also can have adequate character development. It's true that its shorter length in comparison to a book or series makes accomplishing that more difficult, but that doesn't mean it's not feasible.
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Old 2009-11-02, 21:40   Link #70
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You make it sound like these are rules that films need to abide by.

Having a new threat that suddenly emerges out of nowhere and forces the two combatants to join forces is cliché. That's been done so many times before.

A movie also can have adequate character development. It's true that its shorter length in comparison to a book or series makes accomplishing that more difficult, but that doesn't mean it's not feasible.
you are talking about an animated Shounen film directed by a novice director who only has One Piece to his credit. So, while you’re basic point may be correct (i.e. the medium can be adequate for decent character development to allow for a stalemate to occur (which I never once disagreed with, rather I disagreed that with the assertion that this movie could accomplish such a task)), the fact that you are dealing with a "genre" that demands something conclusive, even if it is asinine, almost immediately discounts your point. I hate to break it to you, but this is not going to be a piece of art (which you should have noticed just by looking at the trailer), it is purely entertainment.

As a basic story, it would make no sense that Shiki would steal Nami in the first half-hour; have minor fights with the Strawhats in the next half-hour; and then finally fight Luffy in the last half-hour, only to then give up since he "respects" Luffy - you cannot, within a Shounen movie, adequately explore the reasons why Shiki would stop fighting Luffy after only being an enemy for half-an-hour . Shiki will either be defeated by Luffy (if Shiki is less powerful than Roger (etc)), die by over-exerting himself, or be defeated by someone like Whitebeard (this will only occur if Shiki is as powerful as Roger and the others).

In other words, you are hoping for way to much with this film. It's nice that Oda wrote it (and designed everything for it), but since it is not necessarily canon (it could be canon, as so long as it takes place before Sabaody...but that would instantly destroy any tension)), and will only be confined to a 90 minute film, it seems fairly safe to say that by the end of the movie, one way or another, Shiki will fall, even if it is not necessarily by Luffy's hands...
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Old 2009-11-02, 23:46   Link #71
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you are talking about an animated Shounen film directed by a novice director who only has One Piece to his credit. So, while you’re basic point may be correct (i.e. the medium can be adequate for decent character development to allow for a stalemate to occur (which I never once disagreed with, rather I disagreed that with the assertion that this movie could accomplish such a task)), the fact that you are dealing with a "genre" that demands something conclusive, even if it is asinine, almost immediately discounts your point.
There doesn't have to be a defeat in order for the ending to be considered conclusive. Oda could give the film a significant underlying message subsequent to Luffy and Shiki parting ways that compensates for the lack of a decisive victor (something that you feel is an absolute necessity when it is not).

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Shiki will either be defeated by Luffy (if Shiki is less powerful than Roger (etc)), die by over-exerting himself, or be defeated by someone like Whitebeard (this will only occur if Shiki is as powerful as Roger and the others).
Shiki is obviously not as powerful as Roger or Whitebeard, but he is classified as a legend by the likes of Sengoku, Garp, and Shanks (all high-profile characters). That alone is enough of an indicator that he would be able to trounce Luffy in a fight. It's safe to assume that any prominent figure from Roger's era makes Luffy pale in comparison to them. Like marvelB said, Oda is going to have to nerf Shiki pretty bad for Luffy to stand a chance against him.

Anyways, volume 0 will hopefully confirm how powerful Shiki truly is.
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Old 2009-11-03, 00:31   Link #72
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Anyways, volume 0 will hopefully confirm how powerful Shiki truly is.
Ah, but then we encounter the problem of whether or not the manga chapter is actually canon or not, and if it is, whether the subsequent film is actually connected to the chapter (i.e. the manga chapter could be canon, but that doesn't make the film canon)....

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Old 2009-11-03, 19:01   Link #73
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Ah, but then we encounter the problem of whether or not the manga chapter is actually canon or not, and if it is, whether the subsequent film is actually connected to the chapter (i.e. the manga chapter could be canon, but that doesn't make the film canon)....
You have to ask yourself this: Why would Oda go out of his way by making a volume that predates the current story by 20 years and contains Roger vs. Shiki, only to not make it canon? Anything that deals with Roger's era is very significant, and I don't think that Oda would elaborate on these important events if they meant nothing to the overall story.

I'll concede there's a very good possibility the movie won't be canon, but volume 0 will most likely contain information that is vital to the overall plot.
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Old 2009-11-03, 19:19   Link #74
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You have to ask yourself this: Why would Oda go out of his way by making a volume that predates the current story by 20 years and contains Roger vs. Shiki, only to not make it canon? Anything that deals with Roger's era is very significant, and I don't think that Oda would elaborate on these important events if they meant nothing to the overall story.
This little manga chapter/volume is nice and all, but it is a little weird. Specifically, if it is true canon, then it is badly presented canon. What is the point of randomly inserting/providing information concerning characters that have no bearing on the current storyline...? This isn't like the Skypiea flashback which, while a little superfluous, still had bearing on the story being told. No, this is information that, if it is true, should be presented legitimately in the actual manga, but because it does not fit with the current storyline, it exists in kind of a limbo of relevancy, acting as a strange prologue that will be published first for the movie.

Personally, I have great trepidation over the fact that the first time I am potentially going to see Roger in action (something I have been waiting some 8 or so years to see), will be when he is fighting a character that didn't even exist (in the manga) until 25 or so chapters ago...
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Old 2009-11-03, 19:50   Link #75
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Personally, I have great trepidation over the fact that the first time I am potentially going to see Roger in action (something I have been waiting some 8 or so years to see), will be when he is fighting a character that didn't even exist (in the manga) until 25 or so chapters ago...
This is all being done for the purpose of glorifying Shiki as a legendary pirate and to compel the readers to go see the film. If I may ask, who would you personally like to see Roger fight with in his fighting debut for us readers? Garp? Whitebeard? I can see what your point is. You'd rather have Roger's fighting debut be against someone who has been established as a prominent figure for a long time in the story now.
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Old 2009-11-04, 21:13   Link #76
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This little manga chapter/volume is nice and all, but it is a little weird. Specifically, if it is true canon, then it is badly presented canon. What is the point of randomly inserting/providing information concerning characters that have no bearing on the current storyline...? This isn't like the Skypiea flashback which, while a little superfluous, still had bearing on the story being told. No, this is information that, if it is true, should be presented legitimately in the actual manga, but because it does not fit with the current storyline, it exists in kind of a limbo of relevancy, acting as a strange prologue that will be published first for the movie.

Personally, I have great trepidation over the fact that the first time I am potentially going to see Roger in action (something I have been waiting some 8 or so years to see), will be when he is fighting a character that didn't even exist (in the manga) until 25 or so chapters ago...
The actual Roger vs. Shiki fight will probably appear in Chapter zero which will be in jump issue 53 (http://apforums.net/showpost.php?p=1...&postcount=101) so you can bet it'll be canon and speculation is that chapter zero will be in volume zero along with additional things: http://apforums.net/showpost.php?p=1...&postcount=144
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Old 2009-11-05, 02:22   Link #77
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There doesn't have to be a defeat in order for the ending to be considered conclusive. Oda could give the film a significant underlying message subsequent to Luffy and Shiki parting ways that compensates for the lack of a decisive victor (something that you feel is an absolute necessity when it is not).



Shiki is obviously not as powerful as Roger or Whitebeard, but he is classified as a legend by the likes of Sengoku, Garp, and Shanks (all high-profile characters). That alone is enough of an indicator that he would be able to trounce Luffy in a fight. It's safe to assume that any prominent figure from Roger's era makes Luffy pale in comparison to them. Like marvelB said, Oda is going to have to nerf Shiki pretty bad for Luffy to stand a chance against him.

Anyways, volume 0 will hopefully confirm how powerful Shiki truly is.
Shiki got his name from breaking out of ID. He's a legend because he did that , which has nothing to do with how strong he is . I mean after a year or 2 luffy would be a legend if he just drop off the face of the OP world like shiki did.

If in vol o manga shiki fight roger and get ass kick and crew destroy and then went to ID . It still does not tell us how strong he was .

In the latest manga chapter squardo fought roger got he crew wipe out. If he was then send to ID and broke out it would be just like shiki.

20 years is long time , in 20 years WB has gotten weak , they could even use that for shiki if they wanted.

Being a legend does not mean that person is strong all the time.
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Old 2009-11-05, 06:58   Link #78
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I'm not sure how I feel about Nami being abducted again for a movie plot. They already did that in the second movie. The previous movie, she was sick the lions share of the time. This looks like it's going to be a big fight where Luffy saves Nami. Mind you, it looks like it will be an amazing one. Oda is writing this one. So, I guess we should just have faith in him.

In that trailer, it's weird seeing Zoro and Luffy shooting guns.
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Old 2009-11-05, 16:03   Link #79
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In that trailer, it's weird seeing Zoro and Luffy shooting guns.

Yeah, I found that odd, myself. It's especially funny when you remember that Luffy's crappy with weapons in general, let alone guns. Well, I guess they can only get away with this in the movie......
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Old 2009-11-18, 19:25   Link #80
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There's no way Shanks was an emperor back then. During that time he was a mere cabin boy on Roger's crew and he was only 15 years old. That being said, he couldn't have been very powerful and enough of a threat for the WG to acknowledge him as one of the rulers of the New World.

As for the Yonkou, we're not even sure if the 3 party system existed back then. The marines certainly were around dealing out justice to pirates, but it's unknown if the Shichibukai and Yonkou had been established as factions of power during Roger's era.
I suppose what you were saying is true. I was thinking we would get to see the Yonkou (before they became the Yonkou) in full detail compared to their silhouettes.
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