AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2009-11-04, 23:38   Link #2901
chronotrig
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
If ryukishi is saying "You can figure out what this story is about," or "You can figure out how I'm writing this story and where it's going to go," I totally agree. If he's saying "You can figure out some factual truths," I also agree. If he's saying either "You can figure out every factual truth" or "You can figure out the fundamental nature of this mystery," I can't agree to that.

That's really my only point.
Of course you can't figure out "every" factual truth. In what mystery can you ever know "every" factual truth for certain before the end? He even mentioned at one point that there are certain aspects you can't figure out yet, that there's a "best possible theory at the time". If you count Natsuhi's past from EP5, we know he doesn't literally mean this.

Also, if you're going to say "the fundamental nature of the mystery" can't be figured out, then you'll have to at least disprove my gold text theory. It doesn't explain the history behind the incidents or the details, but it does explain the Rules X Y and Z for Umineko and has a lot of support from in-game text. Sure, it's probably wrong, and there's no proof for it, but it might be right and I have a lot of evidence behind it.
__________________
"The only moral it is possible to draw from this story is that one should never throw the letter 'q' into a privet bush. But, unfortunately, there are times when it is unavoidable."
--Hitchhikers


www.witch-hunt.com Theory page
chronotrig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-04, 23:48   Link #2902
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Also, if you're going to say "the fundamental nature of the mystery" can't be figured out, then you'll have to at least disprove my gold text theory. It doesn't explain the history behind the incidents or the details, but it does explain the Rules X Y and Z for Umineko and has a lot of support from in-game text. Sure, it's probably wrong, and there's no proof for it, but it might be right and I have a lot of evidence behind it.
I don't know that theory, it's been a while since I read it.

And even knowing Rules X, Y, and Z for Umineko - if they exist - does not really quite reach the foundation of the mystery. I want to know as much what characters in the story are feeling and what drives them as arbitrary rules governing how the story plays out. Knowing something happens each time is a good factual hint, but that alone won't get to the heart of the mystery.

And I'm not sure the onus is on me to disprove a theory regardless. I'm claiming there's no way to reach the foundation of the mystery yet. I'm right if that only gets found out later. I'm wrong if someone found it out already, but we can't know I'm wrong until that comes out. I really have no way to "disprove" anybody's foundational theories. I can't "disprove" a factual theory either, even though there are some I disagree with. It's more the art of the possible for me, and I'm trying to be cautious.
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-04, 23:58   Link #2903
chronotrig
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
And even knowing Rules X, Y, and Z for Umineko - if they exist - does not really quite reach the foundation of the mystery. I want to know as much what characters in the story are feeling and what drives them as arbitrary rules governing how the story plays out. Knowing something happens each time is a good factual hint, but that alone won't get to the heart of the mystery.

And I'm not sure the onus is on me to disprove a theory regardless. I'm claiming there's no way to reach the foundation of the mystery yet. I'm right if that only gets found out later. I'm wrong if someone found it out already, but we can't know I'm wrong until that comes out. I really have no way to "disprove" anybody's foundational theories. I can't "disprove" a factual theory either, even though there are some I disagree with. It's more the art of the possible for me, and I'm trying to be cautious.
Right, and that particular heart of the mystery is probably exactly what the Core Arcs are all about. There might be some hints that let you guess them, but he's got up to 3 more episodes to explain those.

About the second part, your claim has the assumption that no one has reached the foundation of the truth. I'm just saying that's a very shaky assumption to make. You're basically saying "because I haven't reached the foundation of the mystery, I doubt anyone in the world has". If you don't even remember my theory which was posted on this same thread, it's a little hard to be very confident on the entire world.

But you're exactly right. We'll have to wait and see.
__________________
"The only moral it is possible to draw from this story is that one should never throw the letter 'q' into a privet bush. But, unfortunately, there are times when it is unavoidable."
--Hitchhikers


www.witch-hunt.com Theory page
chronotrig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-05, 00:09   Link #2904
Ithekro
Space Battlecarrier
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 37
Which means we might have all the information we need, but we can't sift it out from all the contradictions, red herrings, and out right falsehood that the jumbled theories have laid before us all. Some theories that may be true are discounted either based on family, or shipping emotions. (meaning, one doesn't think a mother...aside from Rosa...and maybe Kyrie, would kill their own child. It is illogical even in a murder plot. Also the theory of George killing Shannon, or Jessica killing Kanon is usually shot down due to shipping. Shannon killing George after the ring scene seems just as unlikely, though Kanon killing Jessica also seems unlikely, if not for love, than for devotion to his Milady.) Such reasons may be blinding the facts...but that is why several people want motive so much. The whos and hows have been gone through...the problem is there are so many things blocking the whys that make one want to toss out suspects based on preceived facts that said suspect wouldn't kill victum X because of issue Y or Z.

Speaking of X, Y and Z....did we get all those rules? I was under the impression one was still unknown...at least to Bern.
__________________
Dessler Soto, Banzai!
Ithekro is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-05, 02:28   Link #2905
LyricalAura
Dea ex Kakera
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Speaking of X, Y and Z....did we get all those rules? I was under the impression one was still unknown...at least to Bern.
Judging from Bern's letter, she doesn't actually know what any of them are, but she has vague ideas about them.

Rule X:
  • Lambda said Bern will “absolutely” not be able to win
  • Like the story that always starts on June 20th (that is, two days before the Hinamizawa Disaster, after all of the preparations have been made and there is no room to maneuver anymore)
Rule Y:
  • Some sort of new magic source that Beatrice devised, which is the foundation of her existence as a witch
  • Makes Beatrice completely unique, to the point that Bern and Lambda couldn’t even be called witches in comparison
Rule Z:
  • Some kind of maze-like existence that eliminates Bern’s ability to explore cause and effect on the board, and obscures the details of Rules X and Y
  • Bern speculates that trying to build a map of this board would be completely useless, but has no idea why

I haven't seen anybody offer a suggestion about Rule X yet. Rule Y seems like it could be the Schrodinger's Cat Box effect that lets Beato show things that no one observed, or that a group of people agreed to lie about.

Rule Z seems to be filling the same obscuring role in Umineko as it did in Higurashi. If we look for something fitting the theme of "two things are assumed to be linked that are actually unrelated", I've been thinking that it might have to do with the magic circles and the first twilight locked rooms, and more generally the weirdness in Episode 4. That is, a bunch of highly variable events are taking place that we're ascribing to the culprit's actions, but they're actually occurring for some other reason and the culprit is capitalizing on them.

EDIT:
@chronotrig: You said you had a theory involving gold text that explains all of the rules... Do you have a link to the post where you described that?
LyricalAura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-05, 02:45   Link #2906
chronotrig
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
I meant that figuratively, not in the sense of the actual X, Y, and Z rules from Higurashi. Basically, if true (I seriously doubt it's completely true, by the way), the gold text theory should explain the process that creates the game worlds we see.

@LyricalAura: The theory has been changing a bit thanks to that discussion with Jan-poo, so it isn't all summed up in one place at the moment. Hopefully, I'll find time to do that soon, but working in the EP5 translation is a bit more urgent now.

Edit: This is sort of where it started though.
__________________
"The only moral it is possible to draw from this story is that one should never throw the letter 'q' into a privet bush. But, unfortunately, there are times when it is unavoidable."
--Hitchhikers


www.witch-hunt.com Theory page
chronotrig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-05, 03:04   Link #2907
MeoTwister5
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Where I can learn to be lonely.
Age: 29
Well the thing is episode 5 doesn't really explain what the Gold Truth is, only that it seems to be more powerful than the red.

My current assumption is that the gold truth is a truth that is exactly what it is; it states exactly what it says and cannot be reviewed or altered by any other interpretation because all possible sets of interpretations will eventually derive into the exact meaning of the gold truth. In other words the gold truth has one and only one interpretation, and any and all attempts to interpret will find itself back into one singular view.

I have no idea how this is achieved exactly, given that the very nature of the human language is based on meanings and interpretations.

That said, the Gold Truth is currently one of the cornerstones of a set of semi-unifying hypotheses of Umineko I've been formulating in my head for the last 2 months. However I need episode 6 before I can actually write it up, currently this semi-unifying hypotheses attempts to explain the following:

1. Nature of the murderer/s
2. Intention of the murderer/s
3. The connection of the murderer/s to MetaBeato
4. MetaBeato's true intention of the game
5. The central role played by the Golden Truth, and it's symbolic representation with the Golden Butterflies.
6. The Golden Truth is not something unique to Battler, but MetaBeato was also weilding it.

The central theory of this hypotheses set of mine is that the Golden Butterflies may have a direct connection with the Golden Truth, in such that the Golden Butterfly may be a direct invocation of the Golden Truth within the board game.

All this and more when I finally am able to link it all up. So far my theories aren't linked, I'm trying to find the string that puts them together. When I do I'll be sure to present it.
MeoTwister5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-05, 07:51   Link #2908
ijriims
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
I have made a relationship map which I think has summarized the situation at the start of each episode.

Blue circles mean the people have mutual bonding, strong emotional attachment or trust.

Green boxes mean leagues, based on mutual interest. They can break easily given enough incentives.

Blue arrows mean the person have stronger emotional attachment for the receiver, but the receiver reciprocates in lesser extent.



(Damn, if attachment is enabled in this forum, then I don't need to go upload this bmp myself.)
ijriims is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-05, 09:44   Link #2909
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Meh. this discussion is becoming too boring for me to follow it. Anyway I would like to examine what Ryukishi was referring to when he said he saw good theories close to the truth.

My point is, what do we know about these theories? Nothing of course, it's not like he could tell what they entailed. So maybe they aren't exactly what we think. They don't need to be necessarily theories about who is the culprit, how he did it, why, and what are the rules of this game.

As far as we know, he could be talking about some things that are quite apparent to us already.

For example: "Battler's sin is a broken promise"

That's really not something hard to think about and there are huge hints about it. This is also something that could have been easily thought since episode4

Then let's say that Beatrice is Shannon or Jessica. Even in this case there is an huge amount of hints that point toward either of her.

Now let's imagine that the truth is that Shannon is Beatrice and Battler 6 years before made a promise with her and then he forgot it. This is not so hard to imagine this. Then let's say someone post a theory about this Ryukishi sees it and think: "wow that's right!"

At this point he could be interviewed and he could say that he saw people making right theories, based on good hints. Nothing wrong with this.

However this means that there won't be any big surprise about Beatrice's identity. Maybe we are thinking too much.

After all there's been already theories that were pretty popular and have already a confirmation. Kinzo being already dead since the start of the game, for example. That's one of the things that many people thought after episode3 and it was totally right (I guess).

Another thing I personally guessed right is that Rudolf in episode1 was going to tell Battler and Kyrie that Battler is not Asumu's son. This seems pretty solid after episode5.

At this point I wonder if we should really assume that the truth will be something completely unexpected or something that we have already thought.

For example, Kanon is suspicious, red herring? No, he probably is quite involved.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-05, 12:08   Link #2910
ameskitty
Kupo
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Sleeping
Age: 23
As for Kanon, I've always had the feeling that there's something he could be doing to resolve the murders but he's not doing it. I'm not quite convinced that he's actually killing or wanting people to die (motive at this point is my main issue) but if what I'm feeling is true that doesn't mean he's totally innocent, either.

I can't really think of what this something would be, and it's kind of a gut instinct. And obviously I'm not talking about him abandoning his furniture complex and getting with Jessica (because there's no reason that would stop the murders, even/especially if she is Beatrice, although the furniture thing is probably a factor in his passiveness) or even him telling everybody about Kinzo (although that would definitely help make matters a little less twisted).

But if we're going with the two main Beatrice suspects that type of behavior makes a lot of sense.

Again, just a thought and it's not really useful without knowing what that "something" is, but I'd thought I'd say it XD.
__________________

Avatar adapted from Yoshitaka Amano art

"There is no such thing as a sexy George." - Rhiannon, Easy A
ameskitty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-07, 20:05   Link #2911
Kamar
Author Wannabe
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Does anyone know where I can find a complete list of red truths, w/context where relevant?

Bonus points for any extra information such as things Battler has/hasn't directly observed.

Wanting to do some hardcore theoryworking.
Kamar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-07, 20:20   Link #2912
Volcanic
fire of fires
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Vesuvius
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamar View Post
Does anyone know where I can find a complete list of red truths, w/context where relevant?

Bonus points for any extra information such as things Battler has/hasn't directly observed.

Wanting to do some hardcore theoryworking.
Right here, although they don't have the context for the EP5 ones.
Volcanic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-07, 20:34   Link #2913
Geekodot
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamar View Post
Does anyone know where I can find a complete list of red truths, w/context where relevant?

Bonus points for any extra information such as things Battler has/hasn't directly observed.

Wanting to do some hardcore theoryworking.
Make lots and lots of theories and think about everything and read other ppls theories and compare... after I did that for some time, I suddenly got a solution that I am going to stick with xD

(Which means, I think I know the truth... or at least a great part of it).
Geekodot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-07, 21:58   Link #2914
Kamar
Author Wannabe
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Hmm...can we figure out who is the most likely to be the primary Staker/Ritual follower by looking at when these things get sloppy?

Edit: Just telling me which murders had sloppy staking etc would be great, I can try to work it out on my own.
Kamar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-07, 23:19   Link #2915
LyricalAura
Dea ex Kakera
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamar View Post
Hmm...can we figure out who is the most likely to be the primary Staker/Ritual follower by looking at when these things get sloppy?

Edit: Just telling me which murders had sloppy staking etc would be great, I can try to work it out on my own.
In Episode 1, Kanon's stake was found next to his body instead of stabbed into his chest. Someone fetched Kinzo's body and used it as a fake staking victim.

In Episode 2, Shannon's stake was left lying under her body instead of stuck in her head. Kanon was supposedly staked, but we can't prove that since his body is missing. Nanjo and Kumasawa were supposedly killed before George's group, but staked after them.

In Episode 3, the second twilight victims weren't staked, so two of the stakes are unaccounted for. The first twilight victims, George, and Nanjo had wounds that could have been caused by a stake. Mammon's stake, which was supposedly the one Battler saw buried in Kyrie's stomach, was found by the police and not considered evidence of a crime.

In Episode 4, only four stakes were used. Krauss's stake was clearly stabbed into an existing wound. Shannon's and Nanjo's were left next to their heads instead of stabbed in.

In Episode 5, only one stake was used. Supposedly Hideyoshi was staked in the back, but Eva was already holding the stake when Erika arrived, so we can't prove that he was actually stabbed with it.

Last edited by LyricalAura; 2009-11-08 at 01:25. Reason: Added 1998 weirdness
LyricalAura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-08, 10:16   Link #2916
Neofio3
Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: That's right... where DO I live?!
Hello everyone, I'm up to episode 4 as of the moment and been poking around for some theories. In another board, this was being kicked around and realized it does actually fit pretty well into events so far:

Quote:
(by some other guy) Jessica is Beatrice

I have been kicking around the theory that Beatrice is in fact a hidden personality of Jessica, born from her own frustration at her position, Kinzo's madness, and perhaps Battler's percieved abandonment of her. I'm going to try and put my complete theory down in this thread, as I've only posted bits and pieces of it in various threads.

First of all. This theory assumes the information from Episode 3 concerning Beatrice is correct. Kinzo met her years before, and after borrowing the gold, fell in love with her. Kinzo, undeterred when she rejected him, simply took her by force, building a hidden mansion on the island he bought and imprisoning her there. Unable to escape, she eventually commited suicide.

However, she had a child, or Kinzo found an infant that bore a high enough resemblance, and this child was kept on in the hidden mansion for her entire life, looked after by Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo checking up on occasion. Years later, Rosa stumbles across the hidden mansion, and meets Beatrice #2 who has been desiring to leave and see the outside world. She leads that Beatrice out, only for her to fall from a cliff and die on the rocks below.

Again, she may have been pregnant, or another child was acquired. The timing here is important. Battler and Jessica were both born in 1967 roughly, since they are both 18 in 1985. In '67 Krauss and Natsuhi had been trying to conceive unsuccessfully for more than a decade. Since Kuwadorian wasnt used after Beatrice #2 died accidentally, Kinzo must have wanted to keep the newly born Beatrice someplace she could be kept under observation and not so isolated. So, he gave the child to Krauss and Natsuhi, sternly ordering them to look after her as their own. He may have even told them not to worry about proper succession, as she carried his blood. This might be why Krauss and Natsuhi are somewhat distant from their daughter.

Battler is born at roughly the same time, Rudolph's son, though not to Asumu. Asumu probably miscarried instead of Kyrie, and the Ushiromiyas forced Kyrie to turn over her child to Rudolph and Asumu. The miscarried child was going to also be named Battler, that name got passed on to Kyrie's firstborn (this is also why Battler and Ange look so alike). It has also been theorized that Jessica is actually Rudolph and Asumu's daughter, and was given over to Krauss for some reason. Then Battler was taken from Kyrie, and she may have been led to believe her child died.

As time passes, Kinzo's mind slips further into madness. Jessica is raised normally, though as she gets older Kinzo begins paying more and more attention to her, convinced she is yet another Beatrice. When Jessica and Battler are about 12, Battler says something to Jessica that leaves a deep impression on her, even if he thought little of it. He might have bragged that he'd come charging to the rescue if she were ever in trouble, or he'd help her escape from her oppressive family, something along those lines.

Shortly after, Asumu dies. Rudolph remarries quickly, to Kyrie, who is pregnant with Ange. Battler can't accept this turn of events, and leaves the family to live with Asumu's parents.

Kinzo's madness worsens. Jessica feels like Battler abandoned her. Kinzo starts visiting Jessica more often, telling her about the previous Beatrices, and revealing many of his secrets to her. At some point, Kinzo makes a move on Jessica. Given Kinzo's personality, he's not likely to ask. Also recall what Beatrice said about Kinzo's interests... This may have happened more than once. At some point, Jessica's mind, unable to accept what was happening to her and despairing over Battler, who never came, broke down and a new persona was formed, taking the name of Beatrice.

Sometime in 1983, Kinzo dies. Jessica may have killed him, perhaps trying to resist him. Krauss might have done it as well if he found out what was going on with all of Jessica's visits to his room (remember, like Rudolph told Kyrie once, even though he brags and blusters, Krauss can become the most reliable of the siblings when the chips are down. If he found out Kinzo was raping his daughter, I don't think Kinzo would be around much longer.). Either way, it was neccessary to conceal Kinzo's death, in order to protect his family and also prevent the distribution of the inheritance. In all likelyhood, all of the negative memories and emotions Jessica had experienced got shoved onto Beatrice and locked away.

A few more years pass. Beatrice spends most of the time dormant, though she does come forward to speak to Shannon, sadistically urging her forward deeper into a relationship with George,which she thinks is bound to fail. She even tells Kanon as much when he catches her before she regresses after one of her meetings with Shannon. Which makes the relationship Jessica wants to make with him rather... awkward, since he's afraid this is another cruel joke of Beato's. George and Shannon's relationship seems to be poised to succeed despite all odds, much to Jessica and Beato's envy.

Then word comes to Rokkenjima: Battler is coming back into the family. Beatrice awakens, and begins forming a plan to take revenge on Battler for forgetting his promise to her.

Jessica is in the perfect position to set the ball rolling. From her father, she know that all the siblings are in a precarious position financially. The tensions regarding the succession of the headship are getting high, especially with the rumor being spread among the siblings that whoever solves Kinzo's riddle will become the next head. Confirming this is enough to get people all hot and bothered.

Now throw in some wild cards. Through Kinzo, Jessica knows where the gold is. She knows the servants, probably better than her parents. She knows where Kinzo keeps Beatrice's old clothes. She knows about the emergency funds Kinzo set up, and where he kept all the keys. She can get out from her parents supervision for days at a time under the pretense of bad weather. She knows the ins and outs of both mansions. And don't forget, she knows Maria will believe just about anything if you say you are a witch.

From here, events depend upon the exact conditions of the game. She might carry out some of the killings herself, or it might not even be neccessary. She could be the person putting the magic circles and whatnot around the house, since she and Nanjo are the likliest to know how to make proper symbols (and she knows Maria can read them).

In the case of Episode 2, after she or her accomplice killed all the parents but Rosa, Kanon may have confronted her while she was alone with him. He stabbed her, she retaliated, and wound up killing him. She moved the body out of her room and hid it someplace, then locked herself back into her room, and later died.

Though, could she have been faking? I remember Beato saying Kanon was dead with the red, but was Jessica's death confirmed in the way? I don't recall as much, but if she knew where Kanon's body was, she could have dressed in his bloody clothes and a wig to fool the servants, however briefly, while she waited for a chance to attack them.

Not much red was used in Ep4, and none regarding Jessica really. She could have worn Beatrice's clothes and greeted Battler from the balcony. Despite Battler's surity that it was 'Beatrice', his outlook was warped after the converation with Kyrie. Plus, I dont know if it was a translation error or not: she was described as coming out of the second floor balcony. But Kinzo's room is on the THIRD floor, right? Jessica's is on the second flood if I recall correctly though... Either way, Battler was looking up at her from 10-20 feet or so, in the dark, while it was raining hard. I'm not going to begrudge him for fooling himself into believing it.
Now, I realize the above theory isn't exactly new, given the sheer number of theorizing taking place, but what I want to know is what pokes holes in this theory? Specifically, what other events make the theory unlikely, or another theory more likely in its place? I've heard Shannon = Beatrice is equally likely, can anyone explain it? Any red truths that contradict it, or any ways to stretch the red truth so fit, for example. (i.e. in ep. 3, "Ushiromiya Jessica did not commit murder" may not apply to a separate being calling itself "Beatrice", etc...).

This theory has been bugging me for a while, given it actually does make sense to me given what I know (and if I know anything, its going to be wrong somewhere). Help a guy be at ease.
__________________
Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
- Terry Pratchett
Neofio3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-08, 10:45   Link #2917
rogerpepitone
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Send a message via Yahoo to rogerpepitone
1: The series is set in 1986, so Battler was born on July 15, 1968. (OTOH, nothing says that Rosa met Beatrice in 1967.)
2: If Jessica is that badly by Battler's failure to come, why didn't she just call him? She could have gotten his phone number from Rudolf.
3: Similarly, why didn't Jessica tell Battler off when he arrived at the island?
4: How do you explain the sixth / seventh / eighth twilight in Episode 1? Jessica has a solid alibi for those. Similarly, what happened to Kumasawa & Nanjo in Episode 2? Why did the survivors accuse Kanon and not Jessica?
rogerpepitone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-08, 11:00   Link #2918
Neofio3
Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: That's right... where DO I live?!
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
4: How do you explain the sixth / seventh / eighth twilight in Episode 1? Jessica has a solid alibi for those. Similarly, what happened to Kumasawa & Nanjo in Episode 2? Why did the survivors accuse Kanon and not Jessica?
You can merge the theory with the "Kanon murderer theory", given the fact that we never see Kanon dead in episode 1, and Jessica and Nanjo are the only ones that confirm his death; in addition to just "disappearing" in many arcs in general.

I.e., in at least some scenarios, Kanon is alive and an accomplice. Most likely in episode 1 and 4. Maybe even 3 as the "ghost" that guides Jessica. It can also be reconciled with the events in episode 2. Kanon and Jessica had a "falling out" on the subject of his cooperation. In other episodes, this disagreement may happen later, which still insures his death near the end of every game. This is especially applicable in episode 3. Kanon, holding a weapon and looking into his eyes, kills Nanjo, then leads Jessica to safety. "Beatrice" then kills him in time for Evatrice's red web.
__________________
Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
- Terry Pratchett

Last edited by Neofio3; 2009-11-08 at 12:02.
Neofio3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-08, 12:07   Link #2919
ameskitty
Kupo
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Sleeping
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
2: If Jessica is that badly by Battler's failure to come, why didn't she just call him? She could have gotten his phone number from Rudolf.
In fact,
Spoiler for ep 5 (doesn't spoil any major events but still):

I won't argue a lot of those points - I just think that there are still other people who'd make a more convincing Beatrice (particularly Shannon, starting to think of Kanon as another possibility or an accomplice). There's still a chance that Jessica could be Beatrice in my thinking but it's very small.

EDIT: Also, as I've pointed out before, "Beatrice" appeared to Maria during the 6/7/8 twilight in EP 1. Even if Beatrice isn't carrying out the murders, as some suspect, how Jessica be the one dressing up as Beatrice and talking to Maria about magic all the time if she's trapped up in Kinzo's study emo-ing over Kanon? Maria may be naive but she's going to notice if somebody completely different has taken the Beatrice persona.
__________________

Avatar adapted from Yoshitaka Amano art

"There is no such thing as a sexy George." - Rhiannon, Easy A

Last edited by ameskitty; 2009-11-08 at 12:27.
ameskitty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-08, 12:37   Link #2920
LyricalAura
Dea ex Kakera
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
In Episode 1, Maria claimed that "Beatrice" was the one who killed Genji, Nanjo, and Kumasawa. If Maria has met Beato!Jessica, why would she mistake Kanon for her?

In Episode 2, there's some argument over whether Jessica's death was confirmed in red or not. Beato does talk about when Jessica's corpse was discovered, but then she dodges the issue later and acts like Jessica being alive is a possibility in order to taunt Battler. On the other hand, Nanjo examined her body and said that she was dead, and Battler saw that there was a stake buried in her back.

In Episode 3...
Kanon is dead at the first twilight.
No action taken by Jessica's body was related to or had any influence over Nanjo's murder.
Jessica was under Battler's observation constantly, from before the second twilight until after George's death at the ninth. Therefore, she could not have influenced those murders in any way.

That said, the amount of red devoted to preventing Jessica's supposed alternate personality from killing Nanjo was kind of odd.

In Episode 4, Battler's phone call with Jessica occurred before the phone call with Beato. Jessica supposedly died at the end of her call, and her body was found next to a phone hanging off the hook. Jessica could not have appeared to Battler after her own death. Even if we assume that she didn't actually die at the end of the call, that would mean she changed into her Beatrice outfit, talked to Battler, changed back out of it, went back to the room with the phone, sat down next to it, and then got shot by someone else.

Also, Kyrie supposedly died after Jessica did. Beato!Jessica could not have staked Kyrie after her own death.

By the by, you might want to repost this theory over in the Episode 4 thread to get more feedback. This one is kind of a free-fire zone for spoilers, so most of the people who haven't read Episode 5 yet are avoiding it.
LyricalAura is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:40.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.