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Old 2009-11-10, 19:37   Link #3041
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Someone has been going around before October 4th late at night. Gohda records it, and suggests that the attire is unlike what Natsuhi would wear or allow Jessica to wear walking around the hallways. It I recall the rest of the staff was suppose to be off, so it shouldn't have been Shannon.
Well, Shannon being off just means we don't have any idea where she was. Supposing she actually did find the gold and Kuwadorian, she might have come back to island at the rear dock for some reason, or even been living over there. Not that that explains why she'd be wandering around the mansion in a negligee.

I guess Kumasawa is a possibility too, but the thought of her being anywhere near a negligee is kind of repellent.
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Old 2009-11-10, 21:01   Link #3042
Renall
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Well, Shannon being off just means we don't have any idea where she was. Supposing she actually did find the gold and Kuwadorian, she might have come back to island at the rear dock for some reason, or even been living over there. Not that that explains why she'd be wandering around the mansion in a negligee.

I guess Kumasawa is a possibility too, but the thought of her being anywhere near a negligee is kind of repellent.
It was Krauss. This family's just full of secrets...
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Old 2009-11-11, 00:55   Link #3043
ijriims
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On the origin of the 10t gold, and what killed Battler in EP4 :

The scene of Nanjo's group trapping under the tunnel in EP4 was magical scene of course. But I thought there was a hint in that scene. IIRC, they mentioned that there were some torturing equipment in that place. This supported my idea is that Kinzo did not dig the whole tunnel, Rokkenjima was originally a WWII military secret base. The base had weapons, bombs, gold on it. In the past, it was possible that in the past some fishermen landed on the island but never came back (caught by the military agents), latter it was called Akujikijima. Or the military created such a rumour to scare off others.

What killed Battler was a massive timed bomb set up to blast the whole mansion I suppose.(since in EP1, the final scene showed that Battler, Jessica, George, Maria's group standing before the portrait. That's where the bomb has been placed. And therefore their bodies were found to be destoryed completely as they were standing in ground zero. Unfortunately, Battler was also standing at the same place in the end of EP4...... if he had exited the mansion, maybe he could be alive.

In EP5, maybe the bomb has been disabled, maybe not. We were not shown the end.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

For my Kyrie=Beatrice hypothesis, just let me have one VERY LONG-SHOT on the whole background: Kyrie's family had connection with Kinzo's secret-lover Beatrice (Kyrie and Kasumi were that Beatrice's and Sumadera family's daughter, but not Kinzo's daughter, the cliff-falling Beatrice was indeed Kinzo and secret-lover Beatrice's daughter though. In other word, Beatrice initally was a member in Sumadera family, but Kinzo fell in love with her and she bore the cliff-falling Beatrice for him (Kyrie's mother Beatrice ran away from Sumadera family to live with Kinzo, before she died). This was a scandal for both families and thus Kasumi knew nothing about it, but her family's senior members knew about it, and as the trained head of Sumadera family, she also knew or deduced it). The 10t gold was indeed Kyrie's in this case, as she was the head of Sumadera family (Beatrice told Kinzo about the hidden 10t gold on Rokkenjima before the Korean War, assuming Sumadera family had connection with the military government during WWII). After Asumu's death, Kyrie proposed to her own family and said that she would go to Ushiromiya's family by marrying to Rudolf to get the 10t of gold (as Sumadera family was declining, it probably was not as affluent as in the past. That means Kyrie was working for Sumadera family all along). Kinzo of course knew all about it and was willing to return the gold to Kyrie (As the gold was given by Beatrice, as Kyrie's mother). But Kyrie proposed using it as a test for the whole famiy (she wanted to give Ushiromiya family a chance to redeem itself, her own hidden agenda), and Kinzo agreed. (She lied to the Sumadera family that Kinzo did not agree and she had to resort to violence) Kinzo and Kyrie set up the epigraph 2 years ago and see if anyone could solve it. Kinzo stated in his will to order the half-wing bearing servants to listen to Kyrie after his death. In 1986's family conference, Kyrie executed the last phase of plan if no family member could solve the epigraph: Beatrice killing everyone. In fact, she would win in both cases when the Ushiromiya family was united or Sumadera family got all the gold, so it was said that Beatrice did not care about winning or losing the game. She was loyal to both families (of course greater towards Sumadera family) until the end.

I gave Kyrie a better responsibilty and reason for executing the plan here (not for Maria's sake at all. But she wanted Maria to die in believing she was going to Golden Land though, as the only mercy she could give her). Connecting Sumadera and Ushiromiya family. Give a better account for why she asked the cousins the test questions (to see if they value themselves more or the family more) and how Battler's sin was related to the whole Ushiromiya family. I guessed the bank account for Ange will contain some letters or confessions from Kyrie. But since Ange did not bother to go to check at all. We do not know. And in fact Kyrie supposedly want to hand Ange back to her family as the senior members of the family knew what was going about. In EP3, Eva's survival was unexpected and that made her the guardian of Ange. If she was sent back to Sumadera family, she would lead a better life under the guardian of senior members. Kasumi was ordered to fetch Ange after Eva died, though she probably had no idea about the real reason. She merely thought that Kyrie ran away from her post of head for Rudolf, sorry, Kyrie was the secret agent of Sumadera family and was using Rudolf in fact. (Kyrie loved him, but also used him.)

So, the Sumadera family was the big-bad in this whole game and ultimate mastermind, while Kyrie was its agent (this agent had own agenda as well, so she was a mastermind at the same time). Though she developed some feeling for Ushiromiya family and gave a chance for the family to unite (and commenting on Battler's sin - which was his departure made the whole family to degrade faster), but she was relentlessly working to get all the gold for the Sumadera family. She did not want her daughter to be killed though, but was assured that her own family would take good care of her (going wrong in EP3 when Eva survived alone). Considering why EP3 was treated as accident in the end, it was possibly Sumadera family was behind it, to eliminate any connection between Kyrie and the murders, otherwise it would spill to the family itself.

In EP5, I suppose she knew that Battler was her son from Rudolf. Then things turned into ensuring Battler, Rudolf and herself getting all the gold......

She indeed did not strongly loved a particular person. Ange was a vessal to transfer the gold to Sumadera family, Rudolf was the channel to enter Ushiromiya family meeting and killed all the relatives. She only held some affectation for small kid like Maria. Her first priority was the Sumadera family, then her own children, then Ushiromiya family, then Maria.


An extremely long-shot indeed.... but I think it summed up everything and is my best hypothesis. Clues, sorry, I don't have any, except the fact that Kyrie somehow sucessfully persuaded the Sumadera family to let her marry Rudolf, and the introduction of Sumadera family as an influential but declining family.

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-11-11 at 11:57.
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Old 2009-11-11, 01:14   Link #3044
Neofio3
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As to my hypothesis as to what killed Battler in episode 4:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neofio3 View Post
Another idea, what if we're too focused on bombs?

Rokkenjima is an isolated island, and in it are three hotel-sized buildings which presumably are fully powered. The power requirements for Rokkenjima are simply huge, considering the number of people it has. Consider if the storm causes a problem in the electric grid, snapping a power cable, perhaps, or a generator malfunction. The generator (in the boiler room?) at this point should be gas powered (which means its flammable *and* explosive). It should also be very, very large. Large enough to cause a substantial catastrophe, or kill anyone unfortunate enough to be close to it in the case of malfunction.

Alternatively, a snapped power cable landing on the ground, conveniently covered with water, due to rain.

In the first, it would also explain the event of the disturbance in the boiler room in Ep1. Someone was messing with the generator, potentially rigging it to explode at some time. It would also explain why if you're inside the mansion after a certain point (where the boiler room is), you die. Obviously, while an explosion is assured, there won't be a definite time, so it is in effect *both* a timebomb and a murder method dependent on chance (only that it will happen "soon").

... In any case, an exploding boiler set as the "catastrophe", with Unknown culprit X messing with it, as supported by episode 1 and Kanon's murder scene, seems viable. It would move suspicions out of an unlikely (and frankly unstoppable) freak event like a landslide or tidal wave, back into a human murderer being capable of taking everyone out and erasing all evidence, while still being physically absent (or dead).
The hypothesis being Battler was killed via boiler explosion.

- The culprit entered the boiler room at some point earlier in the game, and set the boiler to explode. Kanon was killed in episode 1 because he stumbled upon him/her messing with the boiler.
- Kinzo was already in the furnace at that time. Kinzo was placed there by Krauss or the servants earlier that day. Kinzo's death had no relation to the plans of the murderer, however, the smell did bring the attention of everyone, leading to Kanon's death.
- Everyone was preoccupied with Kinzo's body and attending to Kanon. Therefore nobody cared to check on the boiler. The boiler explodes approximately X hours later, destroying the mansion and everything inside it.


For this to be the case, our hypothetical culprit would have to discover Kinzo's body as he/she was messing with the boiler. Which would surprise them, but given they were planning to commit murder anyway, I doubt would cancel the plan.
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Last edited by Neofio3; 2009-11-11 at 04:22.
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Old 2009-11-11, 04:55   Link #3045
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
But honestly I don't see it happening. Jessitrice is a theory based purely on looks.
Not entirely. Some possible hints:

Shady birth history

Natsuhi is unable to give birth for well over a decade, and not for want of trying. It would not be unreasonable to say Jessica is not Natsuhi's child. What's more, she's born just in time for the living Beatrice in Kuwadorian to be killed. Who's child is she then? Some options: Beatrice's, before she died (which makes Kinzo... not a good man), Kyrie's (there may be some obfuscation regarding the loss of her child), or one of the orphans in Kinzo's orphanage. In any case, Kinzo has been shown to be just crazy enough to believe people being reborn into separate bodies, and could treat the newborn Jessica as the rebirth of the (recently killed) Beatrice.

Shannon is her "Best friend".
Going by the Shannon = Gaap theory, if Gaap is the "best friend of Beatrice" then...

The physical resemblance
The only female blonde besides Beatrice, who fits her age. Rosa is a blonde, but is in her late 30's, while Beatrice, as she's shown, is in her teens or barely in her 20's. The *human* Beatrice (the one everyone sees in flesh and blood) wears clothes remarkably like Jessica, so much so that the only difference is a small pattern in her jacket (which can be changed easily). While people may scoff about "physical resemblance" being a shallow reason for suspicion, what's important is that Battler sees her. Battler's observations > everyone else. It follows that the resemblance in Battler's sight shown to us is disproportionately heavier than anyone else's.

Is on the island throughout her life, and must obviously know more than she lets on
Including the fact that Kinzo was dead. Indeed, if we posit suspicion 1, that Kinzo somehow saw Beatrice in her, in some way, she may have even learned all his secrets by him telling her. As follows from suspicion 1 (that Kinzo is a bad man), then she may have even killed him, after possibly mistaking her for his Beatrice too much, and her family covering for her due to shame and/or not wanting to split the inheritance.

Has dressed up as a witch for school
Wherein she explained to Kanon about her 'Jess' persona at school and that its "Okay to have different personalities for different situations".

The same age as Battler
07151129. This is important, because we assume it's Battler's birthday. Jessica's birth is suspicious as it is. What's more, Battler does not know he's not Asumu's child - which stands to reason, he knows crap about the circumstances of his own birth, and that includes his birthday. What he knows to be his "birthday" might not be his birthday at all.

Usually lives to go missing until the end, or dies with Kanon, who frequently just "dissapears" without a body.

Is next in line for the headship, however does not want it
As a matter of fact, she thinks its "worthless", and wants no part of it. And while it may sound easy to just renounce the succession and give it to George, circumstances may not be so easy. Its not inconceivable that motive is in some way the opposite of what many expect. Its not about wanting to be the Ushiromiya head, but wanting to avoid it.


To link these circumstances together, see this post.
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Last edited by Neofio3; 2009-11-11 at 08:01.
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Old 2009-11-11, 05:37   Link #3046
Geekodot
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Originally Posted by Neofio3 View Post
As to my hypothesis as to what killed Battler in episode 4:



The hypothesis being Battler was killed via boiler explosion.

- The culprit entered the boiler room at some point earlier in the game, and set the boiler to explode. Kanon was killed in episode 1 because he stumbled upon him/her messing with the boiler.
- Kinzo was already in the furnace at that time. Kinzo was placed there by Krauss or the servants earlier that day. Kinzo's death had no relation to the plans of the murderer, however, the smell did bring the attention of everyone, leading to Kanon's death.
- Everyone was preoccupied with Kinzo's body and attending to Kanon. Therefore nobody cared to check on the boiler. The boiler explodes approximately X hours later, destroying the mansion and everything inside it.


For this to be the case, our hypothetical culprit would have to discover Kinzo's body as he/she was messing with the boiler. Which would surprise them, but given they were planning to commit murder anyway, I doubt would cancel the plan.
Alle the survivors have alibies, let us include the dead as well. In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon. Kanon did not commit suicide. Kanon did not die in an accident.

Kanon did not die in episode 1. He couldn't have been killed, which means he faked it.

Just want to clear that up. He can however be the culprit and the one who rigged the boiler to explode though.
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Old 2009-11-11, 08:11   Link #3047
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Originally Posted by Neofio3 View Post
Not entirely. Some possible hints:

Shady birth history

Natsuhi is unable to give birth for well over a decade, and not for want of trying. It would not be unreasonable to say Jessica is not Natsuhi's child. What's more, she's born just in time for the living Beatrice in Kuwadorian to be killed. Who's child is she then? Some options: Beatrice's, before she died (which makes Kinzo... not a good man), Kyrie's (there may be some obfuscation regarding the loss of her child), or one of the orphans in Kinzo's orphanage. In any case, Kinzo has been shown to be just crazy enough to believe people being reborn into separate bodies, and could treat the newborn Jessica as the rebirth of the (recently killed) Beatrice.

Shannon is her "Best friend".
Going by the Shannon = Gaap theory, if Gaap is the "best friend of Beatrice" then...

The physical resemblance
The only female blonde besides Beatrice, who fits her age. Rosa is a blonde, but is in her late 30's, while Beatrice, as she's shown, is in her teens or barely in her 20's. The *human* Beatrice (the one everyone sees in flesh and blood) wears clothes remarkably like Jessica, so much so that the only difference is a small pattern in her jacket (which can be changed easily). While people may scoff about "physical resemblance" being a shallow reason for suspicion, what's important is that Battler sees her. Battler's observations > everyone else. It follows that the resemblance in Battler's sight shown to us is disproportionately heavier than anyone else's.

Is on the island throughout her life, and must obviously know more than she lets on
Including the fact that Kinzo was dead. Indeed, if we posit suspicion 1, that Kinzo somehow saw Beatrice in her, in some way, she may have even learned all his secrets by him telling her. As follows from suspicion 1 (that Kinzo is a bad man), then she may have even killed him, after possibly mistaking her for his Beatrice too much, and her family covering for her due to shame and/or not wanting to split the inheritance.

Has dressed up as a witch for school
Wherein she explained to Kanon about her 'Jess' persona at school and that its "Okay to have different personalities for different situations".

The same age as Battler
07151129. This is important, because we assume it's Battler's birthday. Jessica's birth is suspicious as it is. What's more, Battler does not know he's not Asumu's child - which stands to reason, he knows crap about the circumstances of his own birth, and that includes his birthday. What he knows to be his "birthday" might not be his birthday at all.

Usually lives to go missing until the end, or dies with Kanon, who frequently just "dissapears" without a body.

Is next in line for the headship, however does not want it
As a matter of fact, she thinks its "worthless", and wants no part of it. And while it may sound easy to just renounce the succession and give it to George, circumstances may not be so easy. Its not inconceivable that motive is in some way the opposite of what many expect. Its not about wanting to be the Ushiromiya head, but wanting to avoid it.


To link these circumstances together, see this post.
Except Gaap as Jessica makes a lot more sense. Hell, didn't Gaap claim to be Jessi's mother in EP5?

Not to mention YOU ARE KILLING JESSIKANON AND MAKING BATTBEATO WEIRD
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Old 2009-11-11, 08:33   Link #3048
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Originally Posted by Geekodot View Post
Alle the survivors have alibies, let us include the dead as well. In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon. Kanon did not commit suicide. Kanon did not die in an accident.

Kanon did not die in episode 1. He couldn't have been killed, which means he faked it.

Just want to clear that up. He can however be the culprit and the one who rigged the boiler to explode though.
Or Kanon didn't die in the island, Kanon died some days before the family meeting.


About Jessica=Beatrice, I don't really get how the 07151129 should be considered a hint. However I can add some other hints:

- Jessica and Battler used to fight each other in the past. They had this competitive relationship since they were children.
- Jessica is the only character that shows the "mu" expression beside Beatrice.
- Jessica claims that when she was little she pretended to be someone else, someone more powerful and charismatic.

Also there is this hint that seems to connect her to Mammon:




There are however other hints were Shannon fits more than Jessica, like for example the fact that Beatrice is often said to be originally furniture. Also Jessica denied magic once and Maria was pretty pissed at her, while Shannon never did such a thing. There are many others, but leave it as that.
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Old 2009-11-11, 09:02   Link #3049
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About Jessica=Beatrice, I don't really get how the 07151129 should be considered a hint.
Essentially, if we take that Battler really does know nothing about the circumstances of his birth (which is true), then what he knows to be his birthday could also be false. He's born to another mother than who everyone believes, after all. If he is Kyrie's child, it is highly unlikely that Kyrie and Asumu would have given birth at the exact same date. Therefore, the date of Asumu's child's birth (real status unknown, but for all the world considers is a male and is now our "Battler"), would not be the exact same date of Kyrie's child's birth, the "Battler" now in the island. Naturally, Battler would celebrate his birthday as the world knows it - the date Asumu gave birth. But he's not that child, is he?

However, the theory of the date being a birthday may not. By process of elimination, if the birthday is *not* really Battler's, then the only relevant person in the island where such a birthday applies is a person with the same age: Jessica. Or essentially, the numbers, which Battler believes are his birthday, might not be in fact his, but Jessica's.

Of course, this would only apply if there was some switching taking place at birth, and Jessica is in fact Asumu's child, while Kyrie's "stillbirth" went to Asumu.
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Old 2009-11-11, 09:11   Link #3050
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Wait I really do not follow you.

07/15 is the supposed Battler's birthday date. If you claim this is not the real Battler's birthday date, because he's not really Asumu's son, shouldn't it be clear then that this is Asumu's son birth date?

Why would they tell to Battler (and the rest of the family) that his birth date is the date when Jessica was born?

And why would they give to Jessica another birth date? Since, apparently, her official birth date is different.
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Old 2009-11-11, 09:44   Link #3051
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07/15 is the supposed Battler's birthday date. If you claim this is not the real Battler's birthday date, because he's not really Asumu's son, shouldn't it be clear then that this is Asumu's son birth date?
Yes, pretty much, except replace "son" with "child". There is no guarantee the baby Asumu replaced for the boy that is to be Ushiromiya Battler was male.

Quote:
Why would they tell to Battler (and the rest of the family) that his birth date is the date when Jessica was born?
Because the child Battler is replacing already has a birthday (and hence Battler, who is now assuming that child's identity, must take the same birthday, discarding his own, in order to assume its place.

For example, there are two babies. One Baby A is born in 07/15, while another Baby B is born in 08/16, barely a month apart. Say Baby A is taken away, with the concession that the mother will get Baby B in exchange, and call it Baby A. However, the world already knows about the birth of Baby A. The world knows the mother gave birth in 07/15, and that the baby was alive. This is in contrast to the mother of Baby B. Baby B is still unknown, possibly just given birth. There's no news yet of its status. The mother might not even know, because childbearing is generally painful and you tend to pass out. So Baby B is taken and replaced with a dead baby without the mother knowing, and given to the mother of Baby A. The mother of Baby B wakes up and thinks her baby died.

However, the mother of Baby A cannot just have her new baby have an entirely new birthday, not if she wants people to think it was her old baby, because people already know she gave birth in 07/15. It stands to reason, she will celebrate the birthday of Baby B on 07/15, as what people expected of her *old* baby, and people are none the wiser.

Baby B (Battler) will, naturally, believe his birthday was Baby A's his entire life, but this will be false. His real birthday is 08/16.

Baby A is still around, and still has the real birthday of 07/15. This Baby A could be Jessica.

The natural problem with this theory is the sex of the baby. However, after birth, contact with the mother and child to the outside would have been limited (being admitted for medical care). So the specific sex of the baby could have been limited to the staff of the specific medical institution (and what do you know, Nanjo owns a clinic), while the fact that a birth has taken place at X date would have been known to just about everyone the date the mother was admitted.

As to the effort this would take, remember that Kinzo would be behind this, and Kinzo is... nuts. I would not put it beyond him to recognize a female born of Ushiromiya blood right after the death of his Beatrice as her "reincarnation", then arrange for said child to be in the family located in the house where he lives. He would even favor said child for the headship, seeing he loves Beatrice more than he loves any of his children (which is why if this were true, Jessica would still be above George, even if her real parents, Rudolph and Asumu, were lower in rank).

Quote:
And why would they give to Jessica another birth date? Since, apparently, her official birth date is different.
Simple expediency? A story would have to be created for Natsuhi giving birth, after all, and it would be just as strange if Natsuhi's new baby has the exact same birthdate as her sister-in-law's child. Especially if she never had any indication of being pregnant to begin with.


The entire theory is of course a Jessica = Asumu's child scenario. It would not apply in another implicating scenario, that of Jessica = Beatrice's child.
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Old 2009-11-11, 10:49   Link #3052
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Or Kanon didn't die in the island, Kanon died some days before the family meeting.
Battler meets Kanon when he arrives at the island... which means he is still alive.
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Old 2009-11-11, 10:51   Link #3053
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Baby B (Battler) will, naturally, believe his birthday was Baby A's his entire life, but this will be false. His real birthday is 08/16.
Until this point it is okay, but the rest is wild speculation.

First off, Asumu's child is named "Battler". Why would Asumu give her female child such a name? For this theory to work Jessica must have been named Battler before the exchange either way it doesn't work.

Second: why you previously state that "it can only be Jessica"? There is absolutely no proof that it must be someone of the persons we already know. Knox rules do not prevent it. This Battler might be someone else or most probably he died.

Third: there is absolutely no relation to Beatrice. Your whole theory can work regardless of Jessica being Beatrice. Even assuming that what you say it's true, Beatrice could be someone else who knows the story. Which means 07151129 is not an hint that Jessica is Beatrice. At best it is an hint that Jessica is "Battler".

Quote:
Battler meets Kanon when he arrives at the island... which means he is still alive.
shkannon theory
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Old 2009-11-11, 10:54   Link #3054
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Originally Posted by Neofio3 View Post
Yes, this follows, except replace "son" with "child". There's no guarantee the baby Asumu replaced for the boy that is to be Ushiromiya Battler was male.



Because the child Battler is replacing already has a birthday (and hence Battler, who is now assuming that child's identity, must take the same birthday, discarding his own, in order to assume its place.
You mean Asumu's "son" (actually daughter) was taken to Natsuhi while the current Battler we knew was from Kyrie?

First, Kyrie thought that her child was dead, does it mean somehow Rudolf and Asumu bribed the doctor responsible for Kyrie's delivery beforehand to take away her child?

Second and more important, why would Rudolf and Asumu agreed to give their child to Natsuhi while accepting Kyrie's son? Would Asumu that willing to accept her love rival 's son? Certainly some babies from Kinzo's orphanage would suffice. And do they care so much about Krauss and Natsuhi's being unable to reproduce?

----------------------------------------------

A little bit of modification and addition for my hypothesis of Kyrie=Beatrice:

18 years ago, Kyrie was already sent to Rudolf in order to revenge on Kinzo for taking back some of the gold. (Kinzo got the gold from Beatrice, who was Kyrie's mother. Thus Kinzo effectively stole the gold from Sumadera family). Knowing that Rudolf was an infamous womanizer, while Kyrie, as the daughter of the traitor, was treated as a tool of getting back the gold.

This failed as Asumu also approached Rudolf and Kinzo probably opposed Rudolf and Kyrie's relationship as he knew Kyrie was sent from Sumadera family. He urged Asumu and Rudolf to engage. Finally, both bore the son of Rudolf and gave birth on the same day, but Asumu gave a stillbirth. Rudolf, unwilling to abandon Asumu after this while loving Kyrie, switched the babies as he wanted Kyrie's son to be raised in a complete family while Asumu would be happy. Kyrie was certainly heartbroken and Rudolf had no chance to explain to her.

The plan to get Kyrie into Ushiromiya family failed. Of course Kyrie was not well treated because of this. But due to her talent and loyalty to Sumadera family, she was selected as the next head of Sumadera family which was declining in power at that time.

11 years passed. Asumu died. And Rudolf immediately proposed to Kyrie hoping to reunite the whole family. Sumadera family was reluctant to reinitiate the plan but Kyrie persuaded them that it was a golden opportunity to get large amount of money as Kinzo was going to die soon. Kinzo probably disagreed to it as well. But this time Kyrie sucessfully gave birth to Ange which made Kinzo have no legitimate reason to oppose to it (he could not expose the fact that secret-lover Beatrice was from Sumadera family).

Kyrie confronted Kinzo to retrieve all the gold. Kinzo probably laughed and said if Kyrie was able to get it then tried. Kinzo set up the epigraph and gave chance to Kyrie to succeed all the gold. In fact, Kyrie did solve it not long ago. But she did not claim them at once. Why?

Because she aquainted Maria in Ushiromiya family, she enjoyed playing with girl as she had been harshly treated in Sumadera family throughout the childhood after her mother left the family. Kyrie, during most of her life, was involved in plots and interest-struggles. The time with Maria gave her some relief because she did not need to ponder about Maria's intention.

But she still have the responsibility to get the gold for her own family. She told Kinzo she wanted to give a chance for Ushiromiya family to see whether they could reunite again. If Ushiromiya family failed, then all would be killed by Kyrie(Beatrice) and Sumadera family got all 10t gold. If Ushiromiya family succeeded in being unitied and solved the epigraph, then she was satisfied with getting only 2.5 tons of gold (gold divded among siblings). Kinzo agreed to this gamble and ordered the half-wing bearing servants to help her if he died before 1986 family meeting in his will. Kyrie herself also recruit Nanjo as an accomplice, knowing he needed money for her granddaughter's surgery. Kyrie suggested to Rosa to help her to deliver the letter to Maria in order to persuade the family to work on the epigraph together. Rosa agreed (Rosa did not want the family to split as well). Of course, Rosa was soon killed after fulfilling her post (except in EP2 and 3).

Kyrie was pitiful in fact. She was used by Sumadera family as a revenge against Kinzo and Ushiromiya family. She was forced to go with Rudolf in order to get into Ushiromiya family 18 years ago. She was trained since she was elected to be the next head of Sumadera family. She could not find any warmth before she met Maria and raised Ange. She had a great burden on her throughout her life. This all fit into Lambda's comment that how misery Beatrice was in when Beatrice was still a human in EP3 tea party.

In addition, this all made sense now why Beatrice said to Battler that "no matter how your father treated you, Ushiromiya family was still a place which raised you up. Do you have any right to abandon the family name and debt you owned to the family?". She was in fact describing herself. Even though Sumadera family treated Kyrie as a tool, she was raised and indebted in it and had no rights to run away from it.

The rest are the same in my previous post. So I would skip them here.

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-11-11 at 11:56.
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Old 2009-11-11, 10:59   Link #3055
Geekodot
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
shkannon theory
Shannon and Kanon does appear in the same scene plenty of times, and probably at least once with Battler there... for example in the chapel or in the shed. Also why wouldn't Jessica notice that Shannon is pretending to be Kanon?

imho, the whole Shkannon theory is stupid...
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Old 2009-11-11, 11:22   Link #3056
Neofio3
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
First off, Asumu's child is named "Battler". Why would Asumu give her female child such a name? For this theory to work Jessica must have been named Battler before the exchange either way it doesn't work.
The name "Battler" is so non-standard its ungendered (and we know as much, Because Battler basically has to explain it to everyone he meets). Hence it does not preclude it as a name for anyone. Its just as strange on a male as it is on a female. We're just so used to it in a male we don't notice.

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Second: why you previously state that "it can only be Jessica"? There is absolutely no proof that it must be someone of the persons we already know. Knox rules do not prevent it. This Battler might be someone else or most probably he died.
Don't confuse the distinction to the statement. I said "the only relevant person in the island where such a birthday applies is (as) a person with the same age: Jessica".

Derived through process of elimination. If there are only two choices, and choice A is wrong, then the correct choice is B. This does not preclude an unknown choice C (a person which has never been introduced) which would skew the entire theory, but that is basically going into "later queen" territory, as stated by Ryukishi. A devil's proof. A logical conundrum. You cannot disprove a negative. (which is why the Red Truth was needed in the first place). So yes, while positing unknown Battler-named person X is possible, its not really helpful in counting or discounting anything, as far as it goes. I would think the game made us used to that at this point.

Quote:
Third: there is absolutely no relation to Beatrice. Your whole theory can work regardless of Jessica being Beatrice. Even assuming that what you say it's true, Beatrice could be someone else who knows the story. Which means 07151129 is not an hint that Jessica is Beatrice. At best it is an hint that Jessica is "Battler".
Of course the single point is not definitive. All of this is circumstantial. But what it shows is that 07151129, a number almost certainly related to a crime scene, is related to a person with a birthdate of 07/15 (if the "birthday" theory is true). Therefore, anyone with this birthdate is in some way related to a murder. That's pretty much all that the hint is. If Jessica actually related to 07/15, then she is, by extension, related to a murder (whether through her past, or motivations, or whatever), and adds to her suspicion as a suspect.
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Old 2009-11-11, 11:25   Link #3057
MeoTwister5
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It would be funny if R07 actually discovers all the commotion regarding the Shannon=Kanon discussions and decided to put a scene in Ep6 or later that finally puts an end into the entire debacle.
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Old 2009-11-11, 11:31   Link #3058
ijriims
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neofio3 View Post
The name "Battler" is so non-standard its ungendered (and we know as much, Because Battler basically has to explain it to everyone he meets). Hence it does not preclude it as an name for anyone. Its just as strange on a male as it is on a female. We're just so used to it in a male we don't notice.
You said a lot on how the number was related to Jessica's birthday, but I could not find answers to these two important questions. Who wrote the number? And why? (My idea was that Kyrie sent a message for Nanjo intended him to kill Eva since she was too injured to do so as she could not just write "kill Eva" on the door, but Nanjo knew who wrote it, as suggested in EP4. However, Nanjo did not get it and Eva just ran away, with Battler chasing after her. Kyrie latter encountered Nanjo but he said he was unable to do so even if he understood what Kyrie wanted him to do. Finally, right before Kyrie died, she shot Nanjo out of anger and her plan being ruined if Eva was alive.)

And of course, according to my theory, the meaning behind the number was simply that the exact date and time of Battler's birth, as that was so "meaningful" for Kyrie as her first child's "death time".

Clean and neat than your articulation of the meaning of 07151129. Though your explanation should work if Jessica was in fact switched baby. But you still have not explained why Rudolf and Asumu would agree such a switch at all.

------------------

For the Shakanon theory, was there a scene that Erika seeing both Shannon and Kanon at the same time? I knew Battler seeing both would not suffice to reject this theory in EP5...

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-11-11 at 11:59.
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Old 2009-11-11, 12:11   Link #3059
ameskitty
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I'm pretty sure there was a scene where Erika and the 17 were all in one room (I think there was even a red statement from Lambda about how all the humans on the island were in that one room, although I'm not sure), therefore crushing the Shkanon theory .
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Old 2009-11-11, 12:21   Link #3060
Marion
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Originally Posted by the_rogue View Post
I'm pretty sure there was a scene where Erika and the 17 were all in one room (I think there was even a red statement from Lambda about how all the humans on the island were in that one room, although I'm not sure), therefore crushing the Shkanon theory .
Yes - when Erika is introduced everyone is in the parlor room if I recall correctly. Although people say that it still hold some ground Erika DID see them together.
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