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Old 2009-11-11, 17:24   Link #21
SeijiSensei
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Perhaps this thread should be merged with the Spoiler Q&A thread?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeedFreedom View Post
If things become that restrictive people cant even say "stuff happens" then source readers will just be turned off by this board. I'm seriously having a lot of a harder time enjoying anime suki when everyone has to now say "Pm me for details, i cant tell you details of what cuse its a spoiler, but some kind of detail on the show".
I'll give the same response I made the other day in the Q&A thread. There is a place for source material; it's in the manga forum. If you want to talk about the source material, open a thread there if one doesn't yet exist, then advertise the source thread by linking to it from a posting in the anime thread. This really isn't all that hard, nor does it require resorting to PMs to discuss the source. Just talk about in the appropriate location, and everyone will be happy.
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Old 2009-11-11, 18:55   Link #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post

I'll give the same response I made the other day in the Q&A thread. There is a place for source material; it's in the manga forum.
Not all source material is manga. New posters interested in discussing light novel source material aren't necessarily even going to check out a manga forum.

SeedFreedom raises many good points on this issue, imo.

Edit: Just noticed that light novel is listed under the main Manga heading. Very well. However... people who are primarily interested in one or two anime series' are going to gravitate to boards dedicated to that particular series. Since that becomes the community for fans of that anime/source material franchise, that is where people naturally wish to discuss the source material.
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Old 2009-11-11, 19:23   Link #23
Irenicus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeedFreedom
Accidentally seeing "stuff happens" isn't the end of the world.
Except some people's "stuff happens (I'm being obscure!)" is other people's "stuff happens (and it's obvious this idiot is telling me he's gonna die)." It's difficult to gauge people's level of spoiler sensitivity and plot-catching ability, which makes me thankful the mods err on the side of caution, even if it's really restrictive at times. I feel that too ("hey, that post really wasn't that much of a spoiler, was it?") but I also see the other side, that's being me spoiled by careless, rude posters who don't know how to keep etiquette.

Some people don't think much about "Character B will arrive and change the whole ballgame" as a spoiler, while some others will be pissed off they're told this ahead of time, because that hint just happens to be the puzzle piece that gave them an unwanted spoiler clue that ends up revealing something big.

And then there are those idiots who reveal major character deaths casually ("everybody's already watched it!" Well **** you I didn't).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Edit: Just noticed that light novel is listed under the main Manga heading. Very well. However... people who are primarily interested in one or two anime series' are going to gravitate to boards dedicated to that particular series. Since that becomes the community for fans of that anime/source material franchise, that is where people naturally wish to discuss the source material.
I'm not 100% sure, but I think the mods already move manga/light novel/source material threads from the bigger generic forums to their specific sub-forums when their anime get one.

Like, say, I can't find a School Rumble thread in the Manga forum because there's already one in the School Rumble anime sub-forum. So, yeah. Already there.

It's actually nor perfect either, since those threads seem to always get labeled "raws only," which means scanlation readers who dislike raw spoilers are left out. I guess you can't please everyone and the scanlation process is far more disjointed and difficult to keep up compared to fansubs but...
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Old 2009-11-11, 19:32   Link #24
SeedFreedom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
Except some people's "stuff happens (I'm being obscure!)" is other people's "stuff happens (and it's obvious this idiot is telling me he's gonna die)." It's difficult to gauge people's level of spoiler sensitivity and plot-catching ability, which makes me thankful the mods err on the side of caution, even if it's really restrictive at times. I feel that too ("hey, that post really wasn't that much of a spoiler, was it?") but I also see the other side, that's being me spoiled by careless, rude posters who don't know how to keep etiquette.

Some people don't think much about "Character B will arrive and change the whole ballgame" as a spoiler, while some others will be pissed off they're told this ahead of time, because that hint just happens to be the puzzle piece that gave them an unwanted spoiler clue that ends up revealing something big.

And then there are those idiots who reveal major character deaths casually ("everybody's already watched it!" Well **** you I didn't).


I'm not 100% sure, but I think the mods already move manga/light novel/source material threads from the bigger generic forums to their specific sub-forums when their anime get one.

Like, say, I can't find a School Rumble thread in the Manga forum because there's already one in the School Rumble anime sub-forum. So, yeah. Already there.

It's actually nor perfect either, since those threads seem to always get labeled "raws only," which means scanlation readers who dislike raw spoilers are left out. I guess you can't please everyone and the scanlation process is far more disjointed and difficult to keep up compared to fansubs but...
Seriously? Hearing "So and so is important" is going to ruin the whole anime and make life not worth living and you have to complain and neg-rep and report like your life is over now? Ya, maybe that's a tiny bit of information about future events, but is it really really that big of a deal? Hell just seeing the damn character in the next episode preview should tell you if they are semi important or not. (I know some people avoid the next episode preview, but its not defined as a spoiler in AS). And to clear this up, i have seen post literally saying "Person A will be important" being bashed to death and demanded to be punished. not anything with a hidden message or subtitle hints or "Person A will be the key to event B" or anything like that.

Its things like that which make people put absolutely everything into spoilers in the first place, creating the original problem. (Which is according to the mods, and not people complaining about spoilers. But to be honest i think most people don't care in a bit about pages of spoilers but are merely complaining about it so they don't accidentally run into one UNDER A SPOILER TAG WHICH BASICALLY GOES UNUSED because they don't know how not to click a spoiler tag with, duh, spoilers! now which makes a bigger problem.)

I will also disagree with you and weather you have watched it or not, once an episode is released, it is no longer a spoiler. Etiquette says that if it hasn't been translated it should be in tags, but it is not defined as an actual spoiler. So if somebody says "so and so died" and its out in the anime, its not a spoiler.


Sorry, but i wanted to come back to address this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
I'll give the same response I made the other day in the Q&A thread. There is a place for source material; it's in the manga forum. If you want to talk about the source material, open a thread there if one doesn't yet exist, then advertise the source thread by linking to it from a posting in the anime thread. This really isn't all that hard, nor does it require resorting to PMs to discuss the source. Just talk about in the appropriate location, and everyone will be happy.
So, in an anime heavy forum with a smaller manga audience, i'm suppose to go to the manga fourm to ask a question about an event which probably happened a year ago in manga time, an event which few people want to discuss over again, and probably even fewer remember, just to get what could be a two line answer? That is suppose to be more practical than say using one or two spoilers, and saving a lot headache and keeping the conversation relevant to the current story? I don't know how often you go into manga fourms, but if say your in the second season of an anime, trying to discuss the new episode that comes out, and somebody asks about a event early in the first season. Would you even give that poster a second though, or just worry about that awesome fight scene you saw two seconds ago. And im talking about a general anime thread, not one with a dedicated Q&A thread where you expect people to ask questions about old events.
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Last edited by SeedFreedom; 2009-11-11 at 19:57.
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Old 2009-11-11, 19:59   Link #25
Irenicus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeedFreedom View Post
Seriously? Hearing "So and so is important" is going to ruin the whole anime and make life not worth living and you have to complain and neg-rep and report like your life is over now? Ya, maybe that's a tiny bit of information about future events, but is it really really that big of a deal? Hell just seeing the damn character in the next episode preview should tell you if they are semi important or not. (I know some people avoid the next episode preview, but its not defined as a spoiler in AS). And to clear this up, i have seen post literally saying "Person A will be important" being bashed to death and demanded to be punished. not anything with a hidden message or subtitle hints or "Person A will be the key to event B" or anything like that.
If it's really ridiculous, PM the mods your opinion. And say it in this thread of course. I wouldn't disagree with you either, as I said I recognize the restrictiveness of it as well. I would still agree on the removal, but warnings and punishments will be way overboard (though you said "demands" for punishment so I assume it's not the initiative of the mod?).

But depending on context "Person A will be important" can be spoilerish. Standalone, that's overkill. But conversations don't exist in a vacuum. A hypothetical example would be something like:

Poster X: Whoa, big cliffhanger! Looks like we have a turncoat in the gang.

Poster Y: I'm guessing it's Person B, C, or D.

Poster Z: Person A will be important.

Bang, spoiler. Sure, Person A might not *be* the turncoat, but the one who will out the turncoat, save the gang, whatever. But it's information that an audience of the show would not have otherwise known without this pre-exposure.

Quote:
Its things like that which make people put absolutely everything into spoilers in the first place, creating the original problem. (Which is according to the mods, and not people complaining about spoilers. But to be honest i think most people don't care in a bit about pages of spoilers but are merely complaining about it so they don't accidentally run into one UNDER A SPOILER TAG WHICH BASICALLY GOES UNUSED because they don't know how not to click a spoiler tag with, duh, spoilers! now which makes a bigger problem.)
Did you not read the explanations earlier? There are degrees of severity, and spoiler tags *are abused*. Some idiots don't label big spoilers properly, while some people err on the caution and hide not-too-spoilerish information in their spoiler tags (I do it too for manga threads on newly scanned chapters that just got released, with the format "Ch XX, just in case"). This can create a problem of the spoiler tag inflation, which means I might be contributing to the problem here, but I'd rather be overly nice than be a bitch and ruin someone else's enjoyment of a show.

I don't blame the victim. Sure, it could be a "compulsion" to click a button you "shouldn't click," but I'd argue just the same it's also a compulsion to tell people what you shouldn't tell. No thank you I don't need to know Character ABC died in Episode 23 because you [not you, SeedFreedom; general you] would like to feel l33t and superior for downloading and watching the raws and wasting your time getting obscure spoilers from Japanese magazines.

The mods wouldn't need to be this highly restrictive if people are clear about what's in their spoiler tag (e.g. "Big spoiler from episode 23"); they're not. Separate spoiler threads would still be useful of course, but leeway could have been given much more if people recognize that simple courtesy.

Quote:
I will also disagree with you and weather you have watched it or not, once an episode is released, it is no longer a spoiler. Etiquette says that if it hasn't been translated it should be in tags, but it is not defined as an actual spoiler. So if somebody says "so and so died" and its out in the anime, its not a spoiler.
Depending on the location, it can be a spoiler.

Sure, the thread on the last episode of Code Geass will have big discussions on the big things that happen in the last episode of Code Geass, and we don't need spoilers there -- as is already the case -- but it *is* a spoiler, and I *am* going to report it and bitch about it, if this information is in the thread of the first episode of Code Geass, or some other unrelated thread completely. By the way this really big event happened to one of the main characters of Code Geass in the final episode, didn't you hear?

There's also a delay time between release and download and watching that will have to be taken into account. Nobody catches up right at the moment the fansub's finished and released.
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Old 2009-11-11, 20:12   Link #26
SeedFreedom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
If it's really ridiculous, PM the mods your opinion. And say it in this thread of course. I wouldn't disagree with you either, as I said I recognize the restrictiveness of it as well. I would still agree on the removal, but warnings and punishments will be way overboard (though you said "demands" for punishment so I assume it's not the initiative of the mod?).

But depending on context "Person A will be important" can be spoilerish. Standalone, that's overkill. But conversations don't exist in a vacuum. A hypothetical example would be something like:

Poster X: Whoa, big cliffhanger! Looks like we have a turncoat in the gang.

Poster Y: I'm guessing it's Person B, C, or D.

Poster Z: Person A will be important.

Bang, spoiler. Sure, Person A might not *be* the turncoat, but the one who will out the turncoat, save the gang, whatever. But it's information that an audience of the show would not have otherwise known without this pre-exposure.


Did you not read the explanations earlier? There are degrees of severity, and spoiler tags *are abused*. Some idiots don't label big spoilers properly, while some people err on the caution and hide not-too-spoilerish information in their spoiler tags (I do it too for manga threads on newly scanned chapters that just got released, with the format "Ch XX, just in case"). This can create a problem of the spoiler tag inflation, which means I might be contributing to the problem here, but I'd rather be overly nice than be a bitch and ruin someone else's enjoyment of a show.

I don't blame the victim. Sure, it could be a "compulsion" to click a button you "shouldn't click," but I'd argue just the same it's also a compulsion to tell people what you shouldn't tell. No thank you I don't need to know Character ABC died in Episode 23 because you [not you, SeedFreedom; general you] would like to feel l33t and superior for downloading and watching the raws and wasting your time getting obscure spoilers from Japanese magazines.

The mods wouldn't need to be this highly restrictive if people are clear about what's in their spoiler tag (e.g. "Big spoiler from episode 23"); they're not. Separate spoiler threads would still be useful of course, but leeway could have been given much more if people recognize that simple courtesy.


Depending on the location, it can be a spoiler.

Sure, the thread on the last episode of Code Geass will have big discussions on the big things that happen in the last episode of Code Geass, and we don't need spoilers there -- as is already the case -- but it *is* a spoiler, and I *am* going to report it and bitch about it, if this information is in the thread of the first episode of Code Geass, or some other unrelated thread completely. By the way this really big event happened to one of the main characters of Code Geass in the final episode, didn't you hear?

There's also a delay time between release and download and watching that will have to be taken into account. Nobody catches up right at the moment the fansub's finished and released.
No like i said, absolutely nothing that could even remotely be a spoiler. Just somebody saying "person A is gonna be important" got a few people in an uproar about spoilers and started discussing reporting them.

Second point, also invalid. I have asked the mods if it would be satisfactory to strictly enforce proper use of spoiler tags, with full punishments to those who don't instead of an outright ban on spoilers. Their reply was they weren't going to take a chance with that. Later the new reply was, we don't want pages of spoiler tags after spoiler tags and this has nothing to do with people complaining about accidentally clicking it.

Third, another point i was trying to show. Everyone has their own opinion of what a spoiler is. I could walk a very fine line and be a jerk and ruin the show much more by barley sayign things which aren't defined as spoilers and it would be legal, vs simply using a spoiler tag. Case in point, i can freely talk about a raw without spoiler tags, but i would be a jerk. I could also freely talk about it the moment it has been released by a fansubber and not need spoiler tags and still ruin it for a vast majority of people who would not have downloaded it yet. it would also be impossible to only discuss fansubbed material because some shows are on a very slow subbing schedule, and some are licensed or unsubbed making the whole show unspeakable. I am not a raw watcher, nor am i a person who would do such a thing, but my point is it will always be too much and not enough at the same time. However one side will still allow the other side to be happy, and keep them safe with a little self control, vs no way i don't want to take that chance ban them all.
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Old 2009-11-11, 20:53   Link #27
DragoZERO
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Not too long ago, there was a slight misunderstanding in one thread because one user said "I hope he is just guessing" in reply to something someone else said and things got out of hand. People need to be careful how they word their posts and include key phrases such as "I think" or "I predict" and such.

And the example I gave, was concrete info from the source material specifying names and all, so yeah.


Another thing to think about, Crunchyroll and other simulcast sites... has created a lot new issues to address. As far as spoilers go, in the past once a fansub was released spoiler tags were not required, but used sometimes if the person wishes to be considerate. Now, we have a lot of people using simulcast sites and others fansubs. In some cases, fansubs beat out simulcast subs (ie: Crunchyroll posts White Album six days after it airs).

Therefore, should spoiler tags be required until Crunchyroll or the simulcast site associated with the series posts it? Obviously I think they should be used, but the staff may think otherwise.

Luckily in the White Album thread I explained this and everyone is using spoiler tags a lot because some people will watch the RAW first, others will watch the fansub that comes out a few days later and the rest Crunchyroll with their late release.
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Old 2009-11-12, 00:38   Link #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
Another thing to think about, Crunchyroll and other simulcast sites... has created a lot new issues to address. As far as spoilers go, in the past once a fansub was released spoiler tags were not required, but used sometimes if the person wishes to be considerate. Now, we have a lot of people using simulcast sites and others fansubs. In some cases, fansubs beat out simulcast subs (ie: Crunchyroll posts White Album six days after it airs).

Therefore, should spoiler tags be required until Crunchyroll or the simulcast site associated with the series posts it? Obviously I think they should be used, but the staff may think otherwise.
Keep in mind that, actually, spoiler tags are never required to discuss the episode once it has been released in any form, including raw. But it is considered "considerate" to use them if you're discussing raws. Here's the original wording of the point:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoiler Policy
Because our forum is targeted primarily at fansub viewers, it is inconsiderate to openly discuss or post impressions of an episode before the fansubs are released, except in threads discussing that specific episode. So, when multiple raw and fansubbed episodes are being discussed in the same thread, please keep all discussion of unsubbed episodes behind clearly-marked spoiler tags. Discussing unsubbed anime is not a spoiler according to this policy, but please be considerate.
(Note that it's possible some specific threads may have additional restrictions outlined in the first post.)

Now, this was written before Crunchyroll existed in its present form, and I think arguments could be made either way about whether Crunchyroll subbed streams should be treated as "raws" (because access is limited to people who pay subscriptions and are in the target areas), or as "fansubs" (because they are in English and targeted at many of the same people who would otherwise view fansubs).

Personally speaking -- and this is just me alone for now -- I side a little bit more towards the latter. Even before when we were just talking about fansubs, there were always cases where people were waiting for another group to release, or where they had to wait a while to be able to view the episode for whatever reason. If someone were to discuss the episode in the open without spoiler tags, since it was subbed, I probably wouldn't consider that inconsiderate since it is the official, licensed subtitled version. I am reminded of the fact that the current spoiler policy was designed to prevent the superfluous use of spoiler tags as well, so just blanketing everything in spoiler tags "to be safe" is not in accordance with the goals of the policy either.

But again, this whole area is one of the few deliberate "grey areas" of the policy. Technically speaking, anything in the specific episode once it airs is never a spoiler according to the policy. And even though the wording currently says "fansub viewers", it should probably be revised to be a bit more broad in light of the more wide arrange of options available now. It was written in "simpler times".


Quote:
Originally Posted by SeedFreedom View Post
I have asked the mods if it would be satisfactory to strictly enforce proper use of spoiler tags, with full punishments to those who don't instead of an outright ban on spoilers. Their reply was they weren't going to take a chance with that. Later the new reply was, we don't want pages of spoiler tags after spoiler tags and this has nothing to do with people complaining about accidentally clicking it.
To clarify, to "strictly enforce proper use of spoiler tags" is what we used to have before the current policy. We tried that, and it wasn't working because people really didn't "get" how to label, even though we tried and tried to explain it and enforce it. So Irenicus was to a large degree correct when he said that a root cause of the problem was poor labeling. But in discussing how to solve the spoiler tag problem, some of the mods/admins also felt that they wanted to reduce the amount of spoiler tags in threads because anime threads are about the anime and manga/novel comments should go elsewhere. By reducing the amount of spoilers allowed in threads, you would reduce the likelihood of a severe spoiler being buried in a sea of benign spoiler tags, thus again reducing the risk of people being accidentally spoiled.

I guess you could sum up the goal/philosophy of the current spoiler policy as follows:

"Managing the acceptable use of spoiler tags by directing spoiler-rich conversations in advance to more appropriate venues."

The net effect of the policy was a reduction in the amount of spoiler tags being used in threads across the board, and a reduction in the amount of "big deal" spoilers being posted in anime threads. In that sense, "mission accomplished". That isn't to say the current policy is perfect by any means -- there are some quirks that I don't really like myself -- but I think I can at least speak for most of the staff when I say that this is a heck of a lot better than the old way.

So again, this is in the spirit of progress; understanding how we got here helps us know where to go next.
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Old 2009-11-12, 05:30   Link #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
Not too long ago, there was a slight misunderstanding in one thread because one user said "I hope he is just guessing" in reply to something someone else said and things got out of hand. People need to be careful how they word their posts and include key phrases such as "I think" or "I predict" and such.
THIS!

You speculate about something.... anything, and just like that, somebody jumps on you and tells you how wrong you are. These people sometimes voice their corrections as a fact and don't even try to word their lines as a simple disagreement with your theories.
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Old 2009-11-12, 06:40   Link #30
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Would it be possible to create a policy that accomplishes the same thing but doesn't use the vague concept of "spoiler" as the basis? (or at all) The current definition (as per paragraph 1) seems like nothing more then a excuse to apply arbitrary judgment "on things you don't like", not a actual definition of the problem. Irenicus's post above is a good example how manipulative the policy is. Why is it wrong if someone sais: "Person A will be important." to be exact? given the stereotypes in anime I would say its a fair statement; there's no visible indication (s)he is basing the statement on some source of information either.

Also, in all this talk about the policy the supporters always bring up "intentional gray areas" and how you have to be "enlightened" to understand the so called "subtilitites" and such. Things like this should be taboo for a policy, are you telling us its intentionally written badly and that's good? Why bother writing rules down in that case? This is not some religious movement (I hope).
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Old 2009-11-12, 07:43   Link #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post

The net effect of the policy was a reduction in the amount of spoiler tags being used in threads across the board, and a reduction in the amount of "big deal" spoilers being posted in anime threads. In that sense, "mission accomplished". That isn't to say the current policy is perfect by any means -- there are some quirks that I don't really like myself -- but I think I can at least speak for most of the staff when I say that this is a heck of a lot better than the old way.
I'd much rather the old way, to be frank.

It seems very arbitrary to me to say that this thread you can use spoiler tags in, but that thread you can't. You should be allowed to use spoiler tags on every thread on every board; that is how it works on every signal other message board that I've been a part of, and it allows for much smoother, freer-flowing discussion.

If people don't want to be spoiled, then they shouldn't click on spoiler tags. It's such a very easy concept. I follow it myself in instances where I don't want to be spoiled.

I'm going to be blunt here - it shouldn't be the job of Anime Suki to protect posters from themselves. If posters are going to click on spoiler tags then they've already chosen to spoil themselves, and to risk spoiling themselves on something big.

Now... yes people need to be careful in how they word their posts when they're not using spoiler tags to begin with. But that's separate from the issue with spoiler tags in particular.
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Old 2009-11-12, 08:10   Link #32
DragoZERO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Keep in mind that, actually, spoiler tags are never required to discuss the episode once it has been released in any form, including raw. But it is considered "considerate" to use them if you're discussing raws. Here's the original wording of the point:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoiler Policy
Because our forum is targeted primarily at fansub viewers, it is inconsiderate to openly discuss or post impressions of an episode before the fansubs are released, except in threads discussing that specific episode. So, when multiple raw and fansubbed episodes are being discussed in the same thread, please keep all discussion of unsubbed episodes behind clearly-marked spoiler tags. Discussing unsubbed anime is not a spoiler according to this policy, but please be considerate.
(Note that it's possible some specific threads may have additional restrictions outlined in the first post.)
How is that a rule if its not required? That sounds like a law a dictator would use for his own benefit.

Quote:
Now, this was written before Crunchyroll existed in its present form, and I think arguments could be made either way about whether Crunchyroll subbed streams should be treated as "raws" (because access is limited to people who pay subscriptions and are in the target areas), or as "fansubs" (because they are in English and targeted at many of the same people who would otherwise view fansubs).

Personally speaking -- and this is just me alone for now -- I side a little bit more towards the latter. Even before when we were just talking about fansubs, there were always cases where people were waiting for another group to release, or where they had to wait a while to be able to view the episode for whatever reason. If someone were to discuss the episode in the open without spoiler tags, since it was subbed, I probably wouldn't consider that inconsiderate since it is the official, licensed subtitled version. I am reminded of the fact that the current spoiler policy was designed to prevent the superfluous use of spoiler tags as well, so just blanketing everything in spoiler tags "to be safe" is not in accordance with the goals of the policy either.
Okay, that is true. I always waited for the good group to release. However, there is an awfully long wait for some simulcast shows for some people. So that means they have to avoid a topic all together? The people who watch the delayed episode would be talking about an episode that aired earlier. This is a discussion forum, how can you discuss something if you only have a small window to do so?

If people use spoiler tags until the "pubic" release of simulcast episodes then everyone can talk about the particular episode they just watched. While you may not want to make this into a rule, it should be added as a suggestion for people to use to be considerate.

Quote:
But again, this whole area is one of the few deliberate "grey areas" of the policy. Technically speaking, anything in the specific episode once it airs is never a spoiler according to the policy. And even though the wording currently says "fansub viewers", it should probably be revised to be a bit more broad in light of the more wide arrange of options available now. It was written in "simpler times".


To clarify, to "strictly enforce proper use of spoiler tags" is what we used to have before the current policy. We tried that, and it wasn't working because people really didn't "get" how to label, even though we tried and tried to explain it and enforce it. So Irenicus was to a large degree correct when he said that a root cause of the problem was poor labeling. But in discussing how to solve the spoiler tag problem, some of the mods/admins also felt that they wanted to reduce the amount of spoiler tags in threads because anime threads are about the anime and manga/novel comments should go elsewhere. By reducing the amount of spoilers allowed in threads, you would reduce the likelihood of a severe spoiler being buried in a sea of benign spoiler tags, thus again reducing the risk of people being accidentally spoiled.

I guess you could sum up the goal/philosophy of the current spoiler policy as follows:

"Managing the acceptable use of spoiler tags by directing spoiler-rich conversations in advance to more appropriate venues."

The net effect of the policy was a reduction in the amount of spoiler tags being used in threads across the board, and a reduction in the amount of "big deal" spoilers being posted in anime threads. In that sense, "mission accomplished". That isn't to say the current policy is perfect by any means -- there are some quirks that I don't really like myself -- but I think I can at least speak for most of the staff when I say that this is a heck of a lot better than the old way.

So again, this is in the spirit of progress; understanding how we got here helps us know where to go next.
To be fair, some source material discussion is to be expected. Or comparing to other series, especially in manga threads where you start to talk about the author's previous works. Its when it gets to be pages long that its goes overboard. But those few cases where they do discuss it, it should be in spoiler tags.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I'd much rather the old way, to be frank.

It seems very arbitrary to me to say that this thread you can use spoiler tags in, but that thread you can't. You should be allowed to use spoiler tags on every thread on every board; that is how it works on every signal other message board that I've been a part of, and it allows for much smoother, freer-flowing discussion.
Exactly, isn't that the point of spoiler tags?

Quote:
If people don't want to be spoiled, then they shouldn't click on spoiler tags. It's such a very easy concept. I follow it myself in instances where I don't want to be spoiled.

I'm going to be blunt here - it shouldn't be the job of Anime Suki to protect posters from themselves. If posters are going to click on spoiler tags then they've already chosen to spoil themselves, and to risk spoiling themselves on something big.

Now... yes people need to be careful in how they word their posts when they're not using spoiler tags to begin with. But that's separate from the issue with spoiler tags in particular.
Very true. Sometimes people use only the [spoiler] tag without specifying what the spoiler is and I have foolishly clicked it and got spoiled, so I don't open spoilers that don't specify what they are regarding.

But the whole point of spoiler tags is to give the person reading the choice of whether or not they want to be spoiled.

Or to hide extremely long posts or images that are big or NSFW.
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Old 2009-11-12, 08:24   Link #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post

Exactly, isn't that the point of spoiler tags?
Yes, it is. Which is partly why I have argued to great length against how Anime Suki's current policy does not permit posters to use spoilers even inside of spoiler tags on certain threads. That is Anime Suki's policy as it exists right now.

Honestly, I think that there are a lot of Anime Suki posters that aren't even aware of this (imo) discussion-quashing approach to spoiler tags.


Quote:

Very true. Sometimes people use only the [spoiler] tag without specifying what the spoiler is and I have foolishly clicked it and got spoiled, so I don't open spoilers that don't specify what they are regarding.
Kudos to you.


Quote:

But the whole point of spoiler tags is to give the person reading the choice of whether or not they want to be spoiled.
... And to give posters the choice to spoiler-tag about events that are in the yet-to-be-animated portions in the source material that may be pertinent to the discussion and/or thread topic at hand.
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Old 2009-11-12, 09:07   Link #34
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Funny thing you mention all of these. Personally I've always found the spoiler policy to be too lenient, and I always try for it to be enforced as much as possible, and I'd try to call for a more restrictive use of the spoiler tag. I've always regarded it more as a necessary evil rather than a board feature personally.
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Old 2009-11-12, 09:42   Link #35
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My take on this: If life gives you spoiler buttons, you either click on them or not. End of story.

I will never understand this spoiler cult. This sense of entitlement that even if I hide spoilerish information you still have the right to have it marked properly so you will never miss something you might want to read goes beyond me.

This is just an instance of the old dilemma, how much restrictions and how much bureaucracy are you willing to accept to protect people against individual risks.

The "risks" being as insignificant as they are in this case, my opinion is clear.

I wonder how many people who don't even want to accept the tiny responsibility to open or not to open spoilers on their own risk on Mondays demonstrate on Tuesdays against "socialism" and a "big government" that might take away your "freedom" to dig yourself into really deep shit.
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Old 2009-11-12, 11:33   Link #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post
My take on this: If life gives you spoiler buttons, you either click on them or not. End of story.

I will never understand this spoiler cult. This sense of entitlement that even if I hide spoilerish information you still have the right to have it marked properly so you will never miss something you might want to read goes beyond me.

This is just an instance of the old dilemma, how much restrictions and how much bureaucracy are you willing to accept to protect people against individual risks.

The "risks" being as insignificant as they are in this case, my opinion is clear.
I agree, Slice of Life. Eloquently stated and to the point.
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Old 2009-11-12, 12:35   Link #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I'm going to be blunt here - it shouldn't be the job of Anime Suki to protect posters from themselves. If posters are going to click on spoiler tags then they've already chosen to spoil themselves, and to risk spoiling themselves on something big.

Now... yes people need to be careful in how they word their posts when they're not using spoiler tags to begin with. But that's separate from the issue with spoiler tags in particular.
I don't think it's as clear cut as this. I really dislike being spoiled for future events, but I do like to discuss the events at the current point in the show. As you know, it is common when an episode has just come out or even days after that for people to put their comments about that show in spoiler tags, so I read those spoilers. This is not because I desire to spoil myself and I want to risk big spoilers. The policy has disallowed these, for which I am grateful. For if spoilers of any size are allowed, it can become a severe hindrance for people wishing to discuss what's current without constantly risking spoilers, because at that point there is very little difference from spoilers like these two.

Spoiler for Episode 32:


Spoiler for Episode 32:


Now, the second spoiler is technically labeled correctly, and without strict spoiler rules wouldn't be wrong to post. And I just wanted to talk about episode 32. I'm not a moron, I don't click on unmarked or vague spoilers for that specific reason that I don't want little references to manga or whatever the person may be doing. However, I reasonably would like to be able to read "spoilers" used courteously for current content without there possibility that it's okay to have real spoilers in there with the excuse that it's my fault because I surely wanted to spoil myself. So while I am sympathetic for those who think that the current spoiler policy is limiting their ability to have better discussions, I also dislike the attitude that it is only in place to protect people who can't resist clicking things they don't want to read.
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Old 2009-11-12, 12:39   Link #38
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Frankly, if people had a freaking clue on how to label their spoilers, none of this would be an issue. Its probably a good thing I'm not a mod as I'd be fairly liberal with the ban-hammer to get the point across.
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Old 2009-11-12, 13:24   Link #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
How is that a rule if its not required? That sounds like a law a dictator would use for his own benefit.
It isn't required because it isn't a rule. It's a guideline. We are asking people to be considerate in those cases.


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Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
To be fair, some source material discussion is to be expected. Or comparing to other series, especially in manga threads where you start to talk about the author's previous works. Its when it gets to be pages long that its goes overboard. But those few cases where they do discuss it, it should be in spoiler tags.
And you will note that the Spoiler Policy actually specifically addresses each of the exceptions you listed as spoilers that are permitted as long as they're under properly-labeled tags. What isn't permitted is using source material to discuss events that haven't yet happened in the specific media being discussed. That's considered off-topic, and belongs in the thread for the source media.


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Originally Posted by Cats View Post
Would it be possible to create a policy that accomplishes the same thing but doesn't use the vague concept of "spoiler" as the basis?
That's actually exactly what we have. The bottom line of the current policy is: If it hasn't happened yet in the anime you can't discuss it in the anime thread. That's an over-simplification, but you could easily re-write the whole thing without mentioning the word "spoiler" once, because it's a policy based around topic scope, not spoilers. It goes without saying that the goal of redefining the scope of a topic is to control/restrict the sort of discussion that can be contained within, and that's exactly what some people in this thread don't like.

---

For what it's worth, it's nice that some people here prefer the old policy, but I can pretty much guarantee that the staff will not go back to that old state because we've been there and it was too problematic. You can say "you didn't try hard enough" until you're blue in the face. So, if you all are really interested in making constructive suggestions, you have to start by accepting that we're not taking a step back. Any changes that are made would have to represent a step forward that continues to support the objectives of the previous change.

As I've explained before, the current policy has the benefit of providing a clear-cut, objective set of rules that defines which spoilers are and aren't allowed. There is no subjectivity about whether something is or isn't properly labeled. And it resulted in a reduction in both the amount of overall spoilers, and in the risk of having major events spoiled (because we tell people to discuss the novels/manga elsewhere). So I appreciate the simplicity of the "a spoiler is a spoiler, if you don't like it don't click" concept, but that isn't the only concept that matters here.
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Old 2009-11-12, 14:52   Link #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cats View Post
No you don't, how can you say that, when you just have a line where you mention how you don't allow "anything that discloses an event, character, plot or other information before it is revealed within the specific work being discussed", and the rest (90% of it) is just full of exceptions and what goes where.
It's a policy that defines a topic's scope, and defines what conversations belong in other more appropriate threads. It has a guiding principle and a list of recognized exceptions, but is not meant to be all-encompassing. And it could very well be written without referring to "spoilers" -- it's a policy to tell people what goes where.

I don't see what's so complicated about the stated example, though. If a person uses their knowledge of the source material to hint or suggest about future plot development, that does "disclose an event, character, plot or other information before it is revealed within the specific work being discussed". It's a spoiler according to the policy, and we could issue an infraction. Many warnings and infractions have been issued for this sort of thing. Where's the supposed ambiguity? Just because the hypothetical poster didn't outright say what's going to happen in plain terms? That's why that summary sentence is written the way that it is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cats View Post
Oh but I guess you're not lieing, it does work. Why does it work? It work by applying pressure and tension to what would be normally a relaxed conversation; and of course people who have had to deal with real spoilers are happy with any bloody rules (as far as I see there is no notion of overkill when it comes to this). Well, I can understand how this is the best way, as far as less work for you is concerned. (what's next on the agenda? "no bad people" rule? "shenanigans policy"? country bans)
You won't improve the policy by using hyperbole to pull on absurdity. All you're doing here is mouthing off.

---

If people have constructive suggestions, I really am interested, as there are some things about the current policy that I find less than ideal as well and wouldn't mind improving. This is why I'm trying to provide factual information about the thinking that went into the current policy, so that constructive suggestions can be framed in that context. A lot of what was in the policy wasn't my idea or my preference, but I at least understand why it's there. But if you're more interested in just shooting down the explanations and dismissing them, you'll lose one of the few advocates for change you might have had. I don't exactly see a ton of other staff jumping all over this thread with interest, and I can tell you again that I don't see many staff members who see the current policy as all that problematic. If people just want to rant and rave about how the current policy is "unfair", don't expect to see any changes being made on that basis.
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