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Old 2009-11-12, 15:40   Link #41
felix
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What's the procedure for a false positive?
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Old 2009-11-12, 15:54   Link #42
Proto
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People are speaking as if the mods were over out troaths for every spoiler material you can possibly imagine, when in fact it is the opposite. People are still able to post highly spoilerful information like episode title listings, comments on the preview on the next episode and magazine reports and comments on the series without the use of spoiler tags, which IMHO is a little contracting, those should be quarantined and put under a proper label as everything else.
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Old 2009-11-12, 15:58   Link #43
SeedFreedom
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Have people been given long bans over spoilers in the past? Has there been a "no strike and your out" rule being enforced? I've seen many people, past and present post spoilers and get away with nothing but a warning because they went on to post minutes later. Guess what, people who are idiots and don't list their tags won't care. True your intention was there before, but it was never enforced harsh before. Of course that will lead to heavy problems and misused spoilers. I'm sure if we didn't have people repeating questions and putting absolutely everything in spoiler tags due to the restrictiveness of the fourms we would not have a problem.

Even if we don't go back to exactly the situation before, this makes discussions of series without a sub form incredibly restrictive. To find a manga/light novel/ whatever to ask a simple question is impractical. why not make an exception in that case so we can actually have conversation? People complain about being spoiled ruining their experience, but in my opinion not being able to find out what happens kills me every week? Why should their need overtake mine? If i was to ask and use spoiler tags properly they would actively need to spoil themselves, where as in their case my opinion is not even an option.

These people are really really tempted to walk that fine line and purposely try to spoil people staying within the rule guidelines
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Old 2009-11-12, 19:18   Link #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cats View Post
What's the procedure for a false positive?
There are times I try to follow your thoughts and all it leads me toward the nearest barren landscape. I don't know what prompting you to come across as so mean...

Quote:
Oh but I guess you're not lieing, it does work. Why does it work? It work by applying pressure and tension to what would be normally a relaxed conversation; and of course people who have had to deal with real spoilers are happy with any bloody rules (as far as I see there is no notion of overkill when it comes to this). Well, I can understand how this is the best way, as far as less work for you is concerned. (what's next on the agenda? "no bad people" rule? "shenanigans policy"? country bans)
Aren't you being a little over the top here? There are others who have also voiced their opinion, but why is it that when you express yours, it has so much sting to it? Seriously, what are you talking about in the above? Surely you can't be so detached from the reality of how this forum has operated thus far because you have been here long enough to realize how much it contradicts from the overly dramatic scenarios outlined in your post!

I must confess that I'm kind of annoyed by this take of yours and I rarely am annoyed at anything. While I understand everyone is free to express their opinion, some sensible thinking and restrain are warranted nonetheless to express any opinion before it can be considered in any light.

I'm sorry to say this, Cats, but I think I'll start deleting your posts if you continue to come across like this. Whether it is a self-conscious process in your part or if you are doing such inadvertently without fully understanding the scope of your own words, it doesn't take away the fact that right now all you are accomplishing with your choice of words in your posts are to agitate matters.
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Old 2009-11-12, 19:33   Link #45
felix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monir View Post
Aren't you being a little over the top here?
Yes, I sometimes impress myself at how I can go into overkill. That comment was joke towards relentlessflame, but maybe I'm too direct. I'll save you the trouble and delete the post.
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Old 2009-11-12, 19:41   Link #46
monir
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cats View Post
Yes, I sometimes impress myself at how I can go into overkill. That comment was joke towards relentlessflame, but maybe I'm too direct. I'll save you the trouble and delete the post.
That is not fair. Relentless is obviously trying hard to address the issues and concerns raised here and in the process, doesn't seem to mind the fact he is being used as the punching bag to absorb any criticism toward this policy. This sort of jokes at his expense is kind of belittling his honest effort in my humble opinion.

I'm just glad that you've made things clear to prevent any further misunderstanding, so you've my thanks.
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Old 2009-11-12, 21:44   Link #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeedFreedom View Post
Have people been given long bans over spoilers in the past? Has there been a "no strike and your out" rule being enforced?
This board uses vBulletin's infraction system, which gives points for different sorts of rule violations. Generally speaking (but not necessarily), mods will issue a warning the first time you post improper spoilers. The second or subsequent times, they issue an infraction. After a certain number of infraction points are accumulated, and will get banned for preset periods of time that escalate the more points you receive. So if someone were in the habit of posting inappropriate spoilers and continued to do so, they would get banned, and more so the more they repeated the infraction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeedFreedom View Post
Even if we don't go back to exactly the situation before, this makes discussions of series without a sub form incredibly restrictive. To find a manga/light novel/ whatever to ask a simple question is impractical. why not make an exception in that case so we can actually have conversation?
We actually debated this very point back in the day, and the reason we didn't agree on this exception was due to the demonstrated tendency for this to descend in to off-topic thread-drift, and long streams of spoiler replies. The mods can't be on top of all the threads night and day to stop these tangents before they become problematic and off-topic, and the line when this crosses over from "related on-topic discussion" to "unrelated source-material tangent" is not easy to determine. It only becomes really obvious when it's too late (and different posters would otherwise have different standards about what spoilers should okay, so reporting is spotty and inconsistent). So, in order to prevent this sort of thread drift, and to establish some sort of "line in the sand", the policy directs all source-material discussion to the relevant source-material thread.


I'm afraid the rest of your arguments are all non-starters if you were trying to appeal to the staff.
  • None of the staff will believe you if you say "you just weren't enforcing it strictly enough", because they were actually there.
  • No one will take you all that seriously if you pretend you're "hard done by", because they will just remind you that you can discuss whatever you want in the correct thread (even if you don't like that system).
  • The mods generally don't take kindly if someone's trying to be "clever" and skirt the rules. If people try to do this, they should be reported, and the mods will deal with it. No one's bound to "the absolute letter of the law" here, and people who try to play "games" with the rules are just annoying.


So... at this point, I think I've probably said just about all I can about the thinking behind the current policy, and provided every insight I can think of into the things that would need to be considered if you wanted to propose a change that would be seriously considered. It's not just a simple matter of putting forward a good-sounding argument about some sort of matter of principle. You have to sell your proposed change to people who went through an awful lot of work, and many long hours of debate, to settle on what we have and who generally don't see an urgent need for change even if they personally don't totally like every single byproduct. So, I guess when people are ready, the staff will be here to listen. Until then, people can fester in their anger, but I'm just being honest when I say that it won't change anything. But, of course, I'm assuming that people want to actually want to see a change made, and not just vent.
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Old 2009-11-12, 22:20   Link #48
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Relentlessflame - A lot of this is philosophical.

I've felt for awhile now that the moderation on the boards may err a bit too much on the strict application side. That is, to say, if a thread goes off-topic even for just a few posts of a tangental discussion, the mods can come down pretty heavy against it. Heck, I've seen this on Images threads where people were simply talking about a particular image for awhile; honestly, I don't see why that's such a big deal, as it's not even off-topic imo.

Likewise, if people focus on the source material for awhile... if you get a few pages straight of spoiler-tagged discussion... I just don't see why that's such a big deal, worthy of moderator consideration, particularly if the source material discussion genuinely relates to the topic at hand. I mean, if this is what the posters actually want to talk about, then why should anybody get in the way of that? The very idea of steering discussion seems a bit strange and needlessly limiting to me. Threads will always eventually come back on topic anyway.


In the cases where I wasn't familiar with the source material, I simply skipped over pages that had lots of
spoiler-tagged discussion in them, and either posted on something related to the topic at hand that I was familiar with, or I waited for somebody else to do so, or I decided to spoiler myself out of curiosity.

In the cases where I was familiar with the source material, then I joined in on the discussion.


I'm a big believer in free-flowing discussion until somebody gets out of line with flaming. When it comes to off-topic discussions, I've often found that posters will police themselves - a poster will sometimes post "Ok, guys, that was a nice off topic chat, but it's time to get this back on topic".

And then... it gets back on topic.


So, to put this all in political terms... I'd prefer a slightly more libertarian Anime Suki. Some boards that I've been on are practically anarchistic, and I'm very glad that Anime Suki shines in comparison to them, but... I think that you're erring maybe just a touch too much the other way.

I tend to feel that as long as there's little to no flaming, trolling, or spamming going on, and as long as there's a good atmosphere for discussion, and as long as people know where to go to look for things, then that's all the moderation that you need. If the moderators are accomplishing precisely that much, then they're doing an awesome job. Well, in the case of Anime Suki, there's also the case of keeping threads concurrent with new episode threads and the like, and Anime Suki's mods do a great job there as well.

Basically, I think that after that... let the posters do as they will. Be like a NHL ref that "lets the players play" and only "calls" the truly egregious stuff, if you get my analogy.

Just my opinion.


Anyway, I'm not just venting. My viewpoints presented above are my honest viewpoints, and they do reflect the sort of policies and policy application approaches that I think would make Anime Suki even more conducive to good, dynamic, free-flowing discussion than what it already impressively is.
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Old 2009-11-12, 22:23   Link #49
SeedFreedom
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So you're saying that all of your rules are just standards, people can and will be banned simply for pissing a mod off and that even if i stay within the bounds of the rules i should always watch my back and be careful and never say anything for fear of being banned? This is exactly the type of thing that leads to pages of spoilers! When everything has to be a life or death situation with them and nobody feels like they can say anything. Maybe if "i hope so and so gets some development soon" isn't treated like the end of the freaking world we wouldn't have people overusing spoilers.

I have proposed very feasible modest changes. For sub fourms where it is very easy to discuss different versions of the work in one place there is absolutely no problem with an absolute ban on spoilers in anime threads, but with out a sub forum, we have no option. I don't really feel like repeating my multiple reasons why trying to hold a conversation over multiple threads in different situations is much less practical than say just using a spoiler or two. The anti-spoilers have a very simple option. DON'T CLICK THE SPOILER! And while your right, technically there is nothing stopping us from discussing anything, in certain places you designate, it becomes impractical, a big "screw you" to the spoiler fans.

Seems as if on anime suki you just have to be the loud majority and the mods will cater to your every whim. I would bet if the percentage was closer to half/half we would not have seen anything like these rules being implemented.
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Old 2009-11-12, 22:51   Link #50
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Not for nothing SeedFreedom, but you show no respect for those who dislike spoilers. Your view is one sided despite what you may think or say. Your signature is proof enough of that (which you should change seeing as how you spoiled it for me and who knows how many other people).

Its not a difficult thing to go to another thread to talk about something by the way. vB's subscription system is easy to use and helps you find the topic you need to go to easily.
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Old 2009-11-12, 23:21   Link #51
monir
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeedFreedom View Post

Seems as if on anime suki you just have to be the loud majority and the mods will cater to your every whim. I would bet if the percentage was closer to half/half we would not have seen anything like these rules being implemented.
While it is crudely put, its not far from the truth as far as the spoiler policy goes. The fact is the fans who are highlighting these issues about the current spoiler policy remains in the very minority, a blip on the radar if I may be blunt. What's more.. all of those issues were considered in one way or the other at the time and it was still put into affect just because it addresses the core issues with spoiler. And as long as this policy works to protect the majority who are vulnerable to spoiler, it will be in place.
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Old 2009-11-12, 23:36   Link #52
felix
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How about just having a [manga][/manga], [game][/game], [novel][/novel] and [speculation][/speculation] tag. (with maybe short forms like [m] [g] [n] [?] for convenience)

They won't work on the "click me to open" principle, as that has failed. They also don't presume or require a title, as that is unreliable and perhaps even misleading. They instead work using cookies (ie. store data in your browsers little memory). You are asked a simple yes/no question and your answer as well as information to identify in which thread you've gave it will be stored in the cookie. Say this was the [manga] tag, the question would be "Have you read the manga? [yes] [no]" (words in brakets would be buttons).
  • Suppose I clicked yes for novel, then I'll see a little symbol at the start of the text to show me its from that medium and at the end another small symbol/icon to show me the block ended.

  • Suppose I clicked no for novel, then I see a different symbol/icon that shows me there's a little bit related to the novel in the post, but besides that I don't see anything else.

The question should preferably appear at the top (ie. first line) of the post as a sort of header (rather on the spot). Once answered for one post it is, as mentioned earlier, applied to all posts in the thread. Oh and, all 3 tags should be treated as inlined, not block as is the case with the [spoiler] tag, so that you may write them inside your paragraphs with out spliting your paragraphs in the process.
Advantages,
  • Everyone can stick together and discuss in the same place; cross media discussion is generally fun and common topic,
  • You are not forced to answer the question. If you don't the content just stays hidden, so its just like answering "no".
  • There's no "spoiler severity", the tags are there for marking. You are responsible for yourself. Do you fear information related to the manga? then if you lied that you read the manga you burn by your own hand.
  • We don't have to second guess wording in our speculation; you just mark it as speculation. As a bonus, people that don't want to discuss/read speculation can skip it and everyone else knows its speculation.
There's of course one extra requirement to make it work. The following rule, (this doesn't even touch the "spoiler policy" mind you)
Quote:
Posts in the Fansubbed, Unaired and Licensed forums must be properly marked with [m] [g] [n] [?], as is the case.
So how do moderators work with this? well you just browse around and look for "unmarked content". You don't need to know what it should be marked with, you just need to be able to notice its not marked with anything. Since speculation needs to be marked too there's no ambiguity. Basically we eliminate the need to have the notion of spoiler defined, by defining everything that might be a spoiler instead (hm, did I get this backwards?).
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Old 2009-11-12, 23:38   Link #53
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Beautiful idea, Cats.

If its feasible for the mods, I support it 100%.

(Presuming, of course, that this would mean the end of total spoiler bans on certain threads.)
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Old 2009-11-12, 23:42   Link #54
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SeedFreedom, your main point seems to be that "If someone is spoiled, big deal its not the end of the world. This gives off a vibe that tells me (as put by DragoZero) that you don't have respect for those who dislike spoilers. At this point you're just venting and not providing constructive ideas towards a reasonable change that would make everyone happy.


Anyways as for my thoughts on this whole thing. I pretty much like the current policy used on this sight, though it does have its impracticalities. Those impracticalities are not knowing at times where to go within the forum to have a "spoiler" discussion. Most notably, series that have no sub-forum. Now this usually leads to having to find a manga/light novel thread for the anime (if there is a manga/novel adaptation for it) and this is what some find as an inconvenience. I believe in these situations a link should be provided in the first post of the thread linking to the appropriate page of where to hold a "spoiler approved" discussion. I believe this could prove useful in providing people where to go without much effort on their part (if it is really that much of an inconvenience for them searching for the thread themselves).


Just finished posting this after Cats presented that idea and now I must also give my good word too it. Great idea Cats.
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Old 2009-11-12, 23:54   Link #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cats
How about just having a [manga][/manga], [game][/game], [novel][/novel] and [speculation][/speculation] tag. (with maybe short forms like [m] [g] [n] [?] for convenience)
It already seems to require quite a bit of effort to get people to tag spoilers, even after that cute little icon was added to the tool bar a couple of years ago. Now you want to add four new tags by type of posting? Even if the mechanics could be worked out, I'm dubious about whether anyone would use them. After all, if people used spoiler tags properly, we probably wouldn't be having discussions like this one.

And, SeedFreedom, while I suppose that nearly everyone here knows about Darth Vader, I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that a lot of people don't know that fact about Dumbledore, given that it doesn't come to pass until the later novels. Like DragoZERO, I think it's rude, but then I'm another of those "anti-spoiler" people that you seem to think are beneath contempt.

GuidoHunter Toki's suggestion of a link to any source material discussions might be a good one, though it's probably a bitch to implement. If it were to be automated, the moderators would have to enforce a consistent set of titles so that the link would be inserted in anime discussions where a corresponding manga/novel discussion exists, and leave it out when it doesn't. Given that series titling is already rather inconsistent, since it relies to a degree on how subbers choose to title their works, I'm not sure I can see an easy way to implement this. That doesn't mean I don't think our intrepid site administrators couldn't come up with a method to do so, of course. As far as I can tell, they can do just about anything they put their minds to!
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Old 2009-11-13, 00:02   Link #56
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Let's see if I can make my last post in this thread count...

Anything is feasible. The question still remains if what I consider to be user friendly is also the case for someone else. For example, why do fans who clicked on spoiler which is clearly marked for a spoilerish content cried spoiler after reading it? Common sense would dictate not to click on something hidden if I didn't have a clue as to what may lie inside.

Same thing goes for the usage of clearly marking spoiler tags. How many of us actually take the time to think up a reasonable warning to give hints to the content inside those tags? And not to mention a conscious effort to write up a proper warning doesn't guarantee the warning will be received equally by everyone. There is still a chance someone will read the warning wrongly and thus may venture into reading something he/she didn't want to. There are several examples outlined in the thread that highlights the very issue with the usage of spoiler tags.

People are curious by nature. Hiding things elaborately won't really solve the issues just because it now takes more than one click. People can still get to those spoilers and then complain about how they were spoiled. The difference is it took them more than one mouse click.

The key issue here is, of course, self-restraint which every one of us lack to a certain degree. The lack of consideration that follows there after is just a by product. Hence, the spoiler policy at its full glory.

Anyway, it's been fun!
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Old 2009-11-13, 00:07   Link #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
It already seems to require quite a bit of effort to get people to tag spoilers, even after that cute little icon was added to the tool bar a couple of years ago. Now you want to add four new tags by type of posting? Even if the mechanics could be worked out, I'm dubious about whether anyone would use them. After all, if people used spoiler tags properly, we probably wouldn't be having discussions like this one.
Should those of us who use spoiler tags properly be punished because of those who don't?

Also, to the extent that some people don't tag spoilers at all... part of it is a result of total spoiler bans on certain threads. What this results in, sometimes, is a kind of *hint, hint, nudge, nudge* sort of post where people familiar with the source material are kind of talking at a spoilerrific level with other people familiar with the source material, only they're trying to keep their hints vague enough that only other people familiar with the source material will get them. Of course, this fails sometimes, and it lets folks in on the spoiler, unfortunately.

With the removal of total spoiler bans (including bans on even spoiler tag use), you would likely see fewer of these sorts of *hint, hint, nudge, nudge* posts, as people would no longer have a reason to try them as a kind of loophole around the spoiler policy.


Quote:

And, SeedFreedom, while I suppose that nearly everyone here knows about Darth Vader, I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that a lot of people don't know that fact about Dumbledore, given that it doesn't come to pass until the later novels. Like DragoZERO, I think it's rude, but then I'm another of those "anti-spoiler" people that you seem to think are beneath contempt.
SeedFreedom was a bit rude, perhaps, but he's upset because he doesn't like censorship, and I can understand people getting passionate over that. And frankly, this is what the current spoiler policy pretty much amounts to in some cases... actual censorship of perfectly on-topic discussion, as the source material often does relate to the topic.

Again, those of us who use spoiler tags properly are being punished because of those who don't.
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Old 2009-11-13, 00:09   Link #58
SeedFreedom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monir View Post
While it is crudely put, its not far from the truth as far as the spoiler policy goes. The fact is the fans who are highlighting these issues about the current spoiler policy remains in the very minority, a blip on the radar if I may be blunt. What's more.. all of those issues were considered in one way or the other at the time and it was still put into affect just because it addresses the core issues with spoiler. And as long as this policy works to protect the majority who are vulnerable to spoiler, it will be in place.
If i may be blunt, the current rules don't solve anything. They just choose to explicitly side with one opinion over another without reason, compromise, or fairness. Im sure the others who enjoy spoilers are just as annoyed, if not more so, than the anti-spoiler group back before the change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cats View Post
How about just having a [manga][/manga], [game][/game], [novel][/novel] and [speculation][/speculation] tag. (with maybe short forms like [m] [g] [n] [?] for convenience)

They won't work on the "click me to open" principle, as that has failed. They also don't presume or require a title, as that is unreliable and perhaps even misleading. They instead work using cookies (ie. store data in your browsers little memory). You are asked a simple yes/no question and your answer as well as information to identify in which thread you've gave it will be stored in the cookie. Say this was the [manga] tag, the question would be "Have you read the manga? [yes] [no]" (words in brakets would be buttons).
  • Suppose I clicked yes for novel, then I'll see a little symbol at the start of the text to show me its from that medium and at the end another small symbol/icon to show me the block ended.

  • Suppose I clicked no for novel, then I see a different symbol/icon that shows me there's a little bit related to the novel in the post, but besides that I don't see anything else.

The question should preferably appear at the top (ie. first line) of the post as a sort of header (rather on the spot). Once answered for one post it is, as mentioned earlier, applied to all posts in the thread. Oh and, all 3 tags should be treated as inlined, not block as is the case with the [spoiler] tag, so that you may write them inside your paragraphs with out spliting your paragraphs in the process.
Advantages,
  • Everyone can stick together and discuss in the same place; cross media discussion is generally fun and common topic,
  • You are not forced to answer the question. If you don't the content just stays hidden, so its just like answering "no".
  • There's no "spoiler severity", the tags are there for marking. You are responsible for yourself. Do you fear information related to the manga? then if you lied that you read the manga you burn by your own hand.
  • We don't have to second guess wording in our speculation; you just mark it as speculation. As a bonus, people that don't want to discuss/read speculation can skip it and everyone else knows its speculation.
There's of course one extra requirement to make it work. The following rule, (this doesn't even touch the "spoiler policy" mind you)
So how do moderators work with this? well you just browse around and look for "unmarked content". You don't need to know what it should be marked with, you just need to be able to notice its not marked with anything. Since speculation needs to be marked too there's no ambiguity. Basically we eliminate the need to have the notion of spoiler defined, by defining everything that might be a spoiler instead (hm, did I get this backwards?).
I really like your idea Cats, however unless the mods decide to flip-flop again and rename another "main" reason for the spoiler change, it wont address the "pages and pages" of spoilers (which i have never seen on this site anyways) that they say is the root of the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
Not for nothing SeedFreedom, but you show no respect for those who dislike spoilers. Your view is one sided despite what you may think or say. Your signature is proof enough of that (which you should change seeing as how you spoiled it for me and who knows how many other people).

Its not a difficult thing to go to another thread to talk about something by the way. vB's subscription system is easy to use and helps you find the topic you need to go to easily.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoHunter_Toki View Post
SeedFreedom, your main point seems to be that "If someone is spoiled, big deal its not the end of the world. This gives off a vibe that tells me (as put by DragoZero) that you don't have respect for those who dislike spoilers. At this point you're just venting and not providing constructive ideas towards a reasonable change that would make everyone happy.


Anyways as for my thoughts on this whole thing. I pretty much like the the current policy used on this sight, though it does have its impracticalities. Those impracticalities are not knowing at times where to go within the forum to have a "spoiler" discussion. Most notably, series that have no sub-forum. Now this usually leads to having to find a manga/light novel thread for the anime (if there is a manga/novel adaptation for it) and this is what some find as an inconvenience. I believe in these situations a link should be provided in the first post of the thread linking to the appropriate page of where to hold a "spoiler approved" discussion. I believe this could prove useful in providing people where to go without much effort on their part (if it is really that much of an inconvenience for them searching for the thread themselves).


Just finished posting this after Cats presented that idea and now I must also give my good word too it. Great idea Cats.
I'll address this generally to those who are upset at my attitude. My contempt isn't to those who want to keep spoiler-free, nor to those who just plain really dislike spoilers. My contempt is to the "holier-than-thou" attitude these people sometimes adopt. They treat everything as if its the end of the world and its the worse possible event in existence. They ruthlessly tear apart at somebody for saying "person a will get some development" like its the end of the series spoiler, and they feel they are entitled to have everyone protect them and any accidental spoilers are solely the responsibility of the poster and none on themselves. Now i am sorry if it seems i am blaming everyone, and i know many of you are very reasonable people, but i am very annoyed. I have put forth many many reasonable suggestions which would allow both parties to enjoy the boards, but the mods are dead set on not changing for your vocal majority.

About my current signature, the book has been out for years, the movie has been released, and even the Simpsons have parodied it. I think that is more than enough time.
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Last edited by SeedFreedom; 2009-11-13 at 00:19.
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Old 2009-11-13, 01:39   Link #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cats View Post
How about just having a [manga][/manga], [game][/game], [novel][/novel] and [speculation][/speculation] tag. (with maybe short forms like [m] [g] [n] [?] for convenience)
Now I get to be flippant for once. That is quite possibly the single worst idea I have ever heard come from anyone on this topic. And people are so freakin' desperate to see spoilers allowed in anime threads that they jump on board like "hey, great idea, dude!"

You have not thought this through at all.

If people aren't even able to label things now with a text box, you think things are suddenly going to get better because you've now given them even more ways to get it wrong? And now we're going to have to moderate because some moron clicked "speculation" when he meant "novel" and spoiled the world on some major secret? Besides, not everyone who has read the novels has read all the novels; some have only read the translations, and some have read the raws. Are you now going to add more tags for the language of the medium as well? Or maybe someone would be okay with spoilers for novel 4, but they just haven't gotten to novel 7 yet -- oops, it's all or nothing! Further, you really expect people to grasp the subtleties of applied tags when they're only able to view the thread from their own "spoiler-allowed" perspective with some "little boxes"? Are you going to give them some sort of "preview" so they can make sure it looks acceptable to outsiders and they didn't screw up the tags? 'Cuz that's likely... And, besides that, what about all the other thoughts that went into the policy? "Fix" this one issue and everything else be damned?

Hey, here's a thought: it's called threads. Maybe we could, say, have one thread for the anime, one for the manga, one for the novel, and then people could just pick the one that contains the one they want to discuss. If they want to do a comparison, they could just pick whichever media is further ahead in the story. Is that really so hard? Or wait, apparently it is, because it fractures the conversation. Well guess what, the conversation is already fractured because the audience isn't all on the same playing field. All this crap is just because a small minority think it's so important that they get to discuss their precious spoilers in the anime thread, since they can't be bothered to perform the small gesture of taking it outside. Posting on this forum is not some sort of right.

I at least applaud the fact that you're trying to be constructive, but no. Hell no. The problem was never that people lacked the option or prompting to do it right. The problem was also not that we lacked the technology to make it easy to manage. The problem is that people just can't be bothered to do it right because they don't give a damn. They won't give more of a damn if you make it even more complicated to do it right. They can't even put the right description in a box that says "What is your spoiler about?".

Made. Of. Fail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeedFreedom View Post
If i may be blunt, the current rules don't solve anything. They just choose to explicitly side with one opinion over another without reason, compromise, or fairness. Im sure the others who enjoy spoilers are just as annoyed, if not more so, than the anti-spoiler group back before the change.

[...]

I really like your idea Cats, however unless the mods decide to flip-flop again and rename another "main" reason for the spoiler change, it wont address the "pages and pages" of spoilers (which i have never seen on this site anyways) that they say is the root of the problem.
No. You keep trying to re-package the issue as if it's about one simple problem that takes one simple solution. I've been trying -- and clearly failing -- to explain that it's a multi-faceted issue that addresses many problems at once. There is no "flip-flopping" and there's no "choosing one opinion over another". Many different people brought many different perspectives to the table and came up with a policy that addressed as many as possible in one go. I've also explained -- at length -- the issues that the spoiler policy has, in fact, solved. You just don't care about any of those objectives because they don't align with your own. How convenient for you and your argument. But if you want to actually have a hope in convincing anyone that has an ability to actually change this policy, you'll have to do a lot better than this. Otherwise it's just you and your spoiler-loving buddies patting yourselves on the back, like "Hey, I'm so right! You're so right! We're all so right, and they're idiots for not seeing it our way!" ... because that's so how you bring about organizational change. Yup...


At this point, I'm ready to say just post in the topic for the medium you want to discuss and get over it. It may not be perfect, but it's not as hard or as devastating as you all make it out to be. You've just all up and decided, like little children, "I don't want to try to work within the rules, because the rules are wrong", and do little more than pout and complain that it's not fair. Sorry, but I'm fresh out of sympathy.


I'm going to lock this thread now because I'm fairly certain that further discussion on this topic will be nothing but more back-patting between the small circle that are in favour of this change with little effort to actually come up with real solutions that reflect and consider all the facets of this problem. If someone has a constructive suggestion, then please post the suggestion only -- not the "rhetoric" -- in a new thread. But before you do that I want you to really carefully think everything through and consider all of the arguments that are at play, and not simply what you personally think is important. Posting another thread that just aims to continue the rhetoric of this thread is pointless because we've gone around in circles enough times now and we're not getting anywhere. So take some time, think about it, and we'll talk again once people are ready with concrete, workable ideas and positive, constructive suggestions.
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