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Old 2009-11-13, 06:14   Link #3181
ijriims
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My own made-up dialogues based on my hypothesis Kyrie=Beatrice (part 2):

(After killing Kauss, Rosa, Rudolf, Shannon and Gohda)

Genji: Lady Kyrie. Where should I place these bodies in?

Kyrie: I suppose the garden shed would be fine. I needed to use the tools there as well.

Genji: And are you going to fake your own death by using the tools in the garden shed?

Kyrie: Yes. I have brought a mannequin with me. I probably could not bring a real corpse with me. And I don't want to lie in that garden shed for six hours as well.

Genji: We needed to move the bodies ourselves. Should we call Kanon to help as well?

Kyrie: Even though he is not strong enough, he can push the trolley I suppose. Yes, please call him. And I need him to know that we killed Shannon as well.

(Kanon came from the guesthouse, and discovered Shannon's body)

Kanon: ...Why DID you kill onee-san? You have promised me try not to kill her. You could call me to be the sacrifice instead.

Kyrie: Shannon was willing to sacrifice herself for you. I initially chose Natsuhi instead. But somehow she got Maria's amulet in her room, so I could not kill her tonight. I don't want to kill Shannon as well....I am so sorry.

Kanon: ....You....

Genji: Kanon, could you help me to move the bodies to the garden shed?

Kanon: Garden shed? But there are only five bodies. Isn't that the ritual required six bodies? Are you going to kill me after reaching the garden shed?

Kyrie: I myself would be a sacrifice tonight. Though it is not a real body just a mannequin. I plan to smash the face and a few make-ups then it should be fine.

Genji: Would it be too risky? Other people may find it out.

Kyrie: I would also smashed Rudolf's face and Rosa's. To make sure that other people would believe we have died. Crush and leave half of the face for Krauss, Gohda and Shannon. As Nanjo is our man, it should be okay.

Kanon: ...You want to do this to onee-san?!! How dare you ruin her beautiful face.

Kyrie: I don't want to do this as well. But leaving her face intact would be too suspicious. And I could not fake my death without smashing the mannequin's face. So sorry. But I would want to leave Shannon's body deep inside the garden shed. I don't want her smashed face to reveal to many people. That's the most I can do for Shannon right now.

Kanon: (Why don't you just kill yourself?)

Genji: But is this kind of practice enough to fake your death?

Kyrie: After all, human minds are easy to trick. The brain tricks itself very often. Once they believe the thing they see is a corpse, they will overlook the details. Tomorrow will still be stormy and they could not see clearly at all. And what's more, smashed faces are too horrible to look at and normal people would not look at them for long anyway. Out of courtesy, Eva and other people will not dare to stare at my face at all. They would just leave Nanjo to take care of the stuff. But....

Genji: Any concern?

Kyrie: Battler is the biggest problem. Normal children would not want to look at parents' dead bodies but he is different. Always rebelling, isn't he? He has the greatest chance to blow my cover. But I will take this risk.

Kanon: ...So it is a body-double trick?

Kyrie: It is or it is not. Depending on how you define this word. I do not use any real body at all. Unless some witches said that body-double trick includes inanimate objects as well. There is no point in arguing this point right now.

Kanon: I see.

Kyrie: After doing all this. I will stay in the VIP room. Hopefully after tomorrow's morning the Ushiromiya family would focus on the epigraph... And I need to draw on the door of shed to make this Beatrice's doing...

Genji: Lady Kyrie, I can actually draw the magical circles for you. I have been practising knife-throwing for many years and it should not be a problem for my hands to copy something complicate. I hope this could help you.

Kyrie: Yes, it does help a lot. So I need to give you some copies of the magical circles you may have to draw and then I don't need to take the risk of exposing myself. Thank you, Genji.

Genji: It is my honour. Lady Kyrie.

----------After Eva accusing Natsuhi pushing Kinzo out and Battler solved the dilemma for her.

Genji reported all these to Kyrie.

Kyrie: They do not even think of the epigraph?? Even though Maria has said the six are sacrifice and yesterday's letter. Eva is probably thinking after today police would come and she would succeed all the wealth, so she does not pay any efforts to solving the epigraph at all. I expected too much on her, I should have killed her yesterday night. I've decided they will be chosen as the 2nd twilight's sacrifice. They are in their room now, aren't they?

Genji: Yes, Lady Kyrie. And also there are things about Kanon I want to tell you....(about what Kanon said in kitchen)

Kyrie: So Kanon is still furious about my killing Shannon rather than Natsuhi? I bet he may avenge on me sometimes latter... I think I may need to kill him after all.

Genji: Do you need me to deal with him right now?

Kyrie: No. He will be useful in the second twilight and he shall not betray me by telling others I am still alive but would rather confront me personally. But don't concern it yourself, Genji. Right now, go into Eva's room and kill them both. Use the chain-lock as the trick this time. Cut them open and adhere them together with glue. Then Kanon could just pretend to have cut open it again in front of Kumasawa. This should make the rest of the family believe the door was locked by chain-lock under Kumasawa's testimony. Use the stakes this time and remember to leave the letter on the floor. After this twilight, except Natsuhi no adults will be left. I expect little on the children to solve the epigraph. Eva might get serious if I kill more people. But I need them to be the second twilight's sacrifice. I am probably sticking too much to the format, aren't I?

Genji: ..........I will follow your orders, Lady Kyrie. And what do you plan to do next?

Kyrie: I will go to boiler room right now to set up a trap. Anyone who step inside first should be hit. Hopefully it is not Kanon... if he has not been carried away by his hatred against me for killing Shannon. Anyway, I shall leave now, because he will probably come here if he wants to take revenge on me.

--------------I am still thinking ways to make sense of EP2 under this hypothesis--------

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-11-13 at 06:28.
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Old 2009-11-13, 07:10   Link #3182
Geekodot
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about all your Erika theories:


-Furudo Erika has not influenced the game up to this point.
-She did not exist in the world up to this point, nor did she influence it.


I suppose it could still work if she fell from the boat and lost her memory or something and then made up the personality "Furudo Erika" after that.
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Old 2009-11-13, 08:29   Link #3183
Kitsu
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Ijrims your theory still doesn't work because a body double is something used to double a body, it can be everything. Also
All identies of the unidentified corpsesis guaranteed

Means, because Kyrie counts as unidentiefied it is fact that she is lying there.


Btw the dialog is a bit..well...I will say it cearly...it's a lot unecessary work due the fact that they weill never say something similair (because lines "Unless some witches said that body-double trick includes inanimate objects as well. There is no point in arguing this point right now." are definantely directed at us and the question of Kanoin is dumb as well..The culprit is not aware of Meta and the red and therefore won
t discuss such things) and also..why the heck should Kanon even help Kyrie? He loves his Sister and Jessica so yeah of course he so agrees on a plan to kill them. And why should Genji help? he is loyal to his current master Krauss so far that he is willing ot fak ehis old master's death. And why does Kyrie want to kill them anyway?

Edit: Also I think that there is a red truth saying
Kanon wasn't killed by a trap
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Last edited by Kitsu; 2009-11-13 at 08:46.
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Old 2009-11-13, 08:36   Link #3184
Jan-Poo
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Well I must say that with the mannequin theory you could make practically anyone fake his own death, except for those whose face is clearly visible. Recreating a face is probably the hardest thing to do with a fake body.

The only problem is if such a thing really goes against he red text or not. Logically I'd say yes, but I'm not 100% sure.

As for the rest I'm with Kitsu in that I don't believe that people can accept their deaths so nonchalantly, especially if that's for a futile reason. This is what we see in the magic scenes, but I believe in them as much as I believe in magic.
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Old 2009-11-13, 09:09   Link #3185
Workworkwork
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riza-chan View Post
I wanted to post some of my thoughts about Erika:

I had a theorythat Erika falling out of the boat wasn't an accident but suicide. Maybe Erika was bullied or mistreated by her parents and was a deprssed and emotionaly wrecked kid. In all the other worlds she jumped and died but always she realised that in truth she doesn't want to die but it was already too late. And thats why Bern chose her and made a miracle happen so Erika survived. Erika was really grateful to her and agreed to do what Bern asks of. And even more Erika decides that solving the mistery will be the approval that she is allowed to live. And it wasn't her true personality she showed on the island but she just wanted to change herslef and started acting different from how she used to be. She wanted to be the cool heroine who always able so slove all problems, very different from the girl she used to be.

Sounds kinda stupid, I know. Just thought this up to make Erika to be more likable, at least for myself.
Honestly, I still like my idea about Erika being Rika from Saikoroshi-hen. That Rika had no friends, beat the crap out of Satoko, perhaps her only possible friend(And likely never apologized for it) and was irrelevant to the soon-flooded Hinamizawa anyway.
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Old 2009-11-13, 10:07   Link #3186
ijriims
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitsu View Post
Ijrims your theory still doesn't work because a body double is something used to double a body, it can be everything. Also
All identies of the unidentified corpsesis guaranteed

Means, because Kyrie counts as unidentiefied it is fact that she is lying there.
I will say it is your definition of body double. My definition of body double is stricty using human body as a double. Until the cat box is opened, both definitions can be true. So I don't argue with you anymore.

I made up the dialogues because it is fun to do so. And more interesting to read.

For the motive or whatsoever? Here comes the third part:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

My own made-up dialogues based on my hypothesis Kyrie=Beatrice (part 3):


Before April 1984, in Kinzo's room:

Kinzo: So you have finally come to see me. I have expected you to come see me not soon after you entered Ushiromiya family. Kyrie Sumadera.

Kyrie: I think you know why I come here.

Kinzo: For the 10t gold, right? After searching for it on the island for 4 years you still cannot find it? HAHA. The tunnel is much more complex than you think!! But do you think that I will give the gold to you just because you are Beatrice's daughter? Hahahahaha.... (cough) (cough)...... and to think back 18 years ago the Sumadera family wanted to put you into the Ushiromiya family but failed pathetically to Asumu. HAHAHAHA...(cough)

Kyrie: ......I know you will not live much longer. So if you don't reveal the gold, certainly it will be buried in the shadow after you died.

Kinzo: Do I look I would care about it? My children are rubbish who only know how to fight among themselves. I don't care whether they get the gold or not. Even though I have no use of the gold anymore, I will not give back to your family!! HAHA.

Kyrie: I know you have no use of the gold anymore. But today I come here not to ask for your gold. But to challenge you and your family.

Kinzo: Nonsense!! You could not find the gold on this island but ask me to give you clues on how to find it. How pathetic you are!! But you know what, I do want to set up a riddle for everyone for the gold. It already amuses me to imagine how those stupid children of mine will desperately try to solve my riddle in futile!! That will be the last entertainment for my life. You can also solve it if you can. If you solve it, then all the things go to Sumadera family. If you can't, then all the gold will be buried under this island forever!!

Kyrie: It is enough for me. I will solve it and take all the gold away.

Kinzo: Hymh, now go away. You Sumadera family will never get back what I have taken, no matter it is the gold or your mother.

--------------------------------------------------

~1 year after (also in Kinzo's room):

Kyrie: Here is the proof of my solving the epigraph. (present a gold ingot, with the one-winged eagle symbol on it.

Kinzo:........................Brilliant. You have solved the epigraph and none of my useless children would do so. You surely have inherited your mother's ability, even though your father is from Sumadera family.

Kyrie: So I now own the gold and also the title of the head of Ushiromiya family?

Kinzo: I keep my promise. You can take them anytime you want.

Kyrie: I have changed my mind. I will not take them right away. I want to use the epigraph to test the Ushiromiya family.

Kinzo: ...What? You are willing to give away the gold even though you already own it. What nonsense are you talking about?

Kyrie: I will not give away all the gold. I am willing to part with the gold only if the Ushiromiya family united together and solve the epigraph. That means, it only happen if all the your children solve epigraph and divide it into four parts. I am fine with taking only 2.5 tons of gold.

Kinzo: Why do you want to do so?

Kyrie: I think when you write this epigraph, you actually also hope for the children of yours will stop their struggle and work together. I am merely entending your wish.

Kinzo: That does not make sense. You should hate me deeply for making your mother run away.

Kyrie: I have found someone and something in this family which I have never experienced in my own family. That's why I am willing to give your family a chance.

Kinzo:.........

Kyrie: But don't think I am that lenient. This chance is the last chance for your family. Failing this, all your family members will die and my family gets all the gold.

Kinzo: ....You wanted to kill them?

Kyrie: I will execute the epigraph literally. I will become Beatrice. If they could not solve the epigraph by the ninth twilight, then all people will die in my hands.

Kinzo:..........HAHAHAHA. Threatening them into working together and solving the epigraph. That's truly a witch's doing!! (cough)You have not only inherited Beatrice's intelligence, but also her title of witch!!

Kyrie: When I was still a child, my mother used to play with me and teach me about magic and witch, until you take her away...

Kinzo:.........HAHA. It is a greatest and riskier gamble in my life. All-or-nothing for my family!! FINE!! I don't care about my children and Ushiromiya family is already doomed if they are this worthless and fractured right now. If the gamble works, then Ushiromiya family shall surpass even its glorious past! (cough) I accept it.

Kyrie: I need someone to help me as well. Can Genji also lend me a hand?

Kinzo: Genji. Come in!!

(Genji opened the door and entered the room)

Genji: What's the matter? My master.

Kinzo: Genji. Are you willing to die for me?

Genji: I am already at this age and have nothing to wish for but to pay back the debt I have owned you. I am willing to die for you any moment, my master.

Kinzo: ...Genji. Are you also willing to kill someone for me?

Genji: ....My parents have long passed away and I had no children myself. So whoever you order me to kill, I shall do it for you, as long as it is not master you.

Kinzo: Thank you. My friend. I want you to help Kyrie to fulfill her plan after I leave this world. Can you treat Kyrie like me after I leave?

Genji: Yes. My master.

Kinzo: Who can also help Kyrie like Genji you? Which one-wing eagle bearing servant could do this for me? What do you think, Genji?

Genji: ............I think Shannon and Kanon are both willing to sacrifice themselves for you, master. But I don't think they could kill others for you, master.

Kinzo: .......I see. I trust your judgment. When will you execute the plan, Kyrie?

Kyrie: It needs to be on the day of annual family meeting. Or there will be no chance everyone will be on the island.

Kinzo: Good. Then Genji please help Kyrie to finish her plan and assign Shannon and Kanon on that day. I shall write a will to confirm Kyrie's status of being the head of Ushiromiya family after I die.

Kyrie: Father, you?!

Kinzo: If your gamble works, then you indeed are the one to bring up the Ushiromiya family. If not, then Ushiromiya family is finished in your hands. Isn't it appropriate?

Kyrie: Thank you. Father.

-------------end for the past, back to 1986 EP1 in the next part-----------------------

(Just treat me as writing my own novel and theory at the same time. And yeah, the lines about body-double trick was surely directed at you guys. Sorry for throwing an idiotball at Kanon)

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-11-13 at 10:29.
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Old 2009-11-13, 11:23   Link #3187
LyricalAura
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Alright, let me try a different approach to the Shannon issue.

Like ijriims said, if there was a plan in place beforehand, then Shannon as the culprit could have had the opportunity to prepare a body double (I don't actually agree with this, since there are signs that the plan gets significantly altered on the day of the conference, but let's take it for now). Also, Shannon would require an accomplice or unwitting stooge to both lock the shed with her and the victims inside, and to let her out later to commit more murders after Natsuhi relocks the shed. But these are only issues if Shannon is the culprit, and there are other reasons why Shannon might have faked her death.

1. Because of her location in the back of the shed, the culprit didn't realize she was there while the murders were committed. She hid there to avoid being killed, and was locked inside when the murderer left. Under the fake deaths theory, everyone in the shed including her would have been covered in fake blood, so she would certainly realize that she'd be accused of the murders immediately when the scene was discovered. She tried to play dead while she figured out what to do. Kanon saw that she was faking and let her out later, after faking his own death, so they could search for the real culprit.

2. The culprit deliberately left her alive, knowing that she would be considered the murderer if she revealed herself. There was additional incentive to play dead when the shed was opened, since the culprit was with the search party and could have accused her if she tried to tell everyone what happened. Kanon saw that she was faking and let her out as before.

These theories have the additional advantage of explaining why Shannon was lying there crying as shown in the anime: she was crying in terror.
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Old 2009-11-13, 12:16   Link #3188
Jan-Poo
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I tried to analyze Ep1 assuming the following things:

- There is only one murderer (though there can be a different mastermind and different accomplices)
- Beatrice didn't use any cheap trick or red herring, she wants Battler to find the truth
- Battler is a reliable witness

If the above statements are true then we can remove from our list the persons who died in the first twilight

Kyrie X
Rudolf X
Shannon X
Gohda X
Rosa X
Krauss X

Then we have the red truth:

Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not murderers.

there is no better alibi than this.

Genji X
Kumasawa X
Nanjo X

But from Episode5 we have also

o Battler-kun is not the culprit.
o Battler-kun has not killed anyone.
o This applies to all games.


that's another perfect alibi. Not to mention the Knox rule, but these red truths are even more clear.

Battler X

Then there's Maria who is physically unable to perform such murders

Maria X

Of course Kinzo has a perfect alibi as well

At the start of all games, Kinzo is already dead!

Kinzo X

So we are left with 6 people:

Natsuhi
Eva
Hideyoshi
Kanon
Jessica
George

If we assume there is only one murderer then George, Jessica and Natsuhi have an alibi.

The same applies for Hideyoshi and Eva since:

The two were killed by other people

Natsuhi X
Eva X
Hideyoshi X
Kanon X
Jessica X


The only one that's left is Kanon.
There isn't any red truth that covers him.
Of all the "dead" he's the one who is most likely to have faked his own.
Red truths seem to confirm he didn't die
Battler doesn't see his dead body

The only problem with this is that you'd have to think that Jessica and Nanjo lied about his death. However this is something that can have and explanation and that's a trick that has been used already in famous mystery novels.

In case the "single murderer" theory isn't true, Kanon still needs to be one of the murderers, and there's no need to imagine multiple murderers if you can explain a mystery with a single one.

Any murder can be explained easily with Kanon except the case with Eva and Hideyoshi. This might be explained if Kumasawa or Genji are accomplices, but I hope there's a better explanation.


Occam's razor dictates that Kanon is the murderer, now the question is if Ryukishi planned a complicated murder for Episode1 or a simple one. We know that Onikakushi didn't really have a surprise assassin, so it is totally possible that Episode1 won't have a plot twist.

If Kanon is not the murderer, then it can only be one of the first six.
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Old 2009-11-13, 12:21   Link #3189
Kitsu
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Sounds logical but to be honest I think there is more than one murderer and if not it isn't Kanon. he is way to suspicious isn't he? But this is just a feeling
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Old 2009-11-13, 12:27   Link #3190
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitsu View Post
Sounds logical but to be honest I think tehre is more than one murderer and if not it isn't Kanon he is way to suspicious isn't he? But this is jsut a feeling
If we go by who is "way too suspicious," we also have to tell ourselves that Rosa wasn't involved in ep2, or whatever. Yes, it's possible to design a theory around it, so at the very least we can't say with any certainty.

After all, not having an alibi doesn't mean you did it. Nanjo doesn't have an alibi for ep3 FT, but he's not the only person who could have done it, merely the one who would have had the easiest time of it since he had no one checking up on him. Eva in many ways is the "obvious culprit" of ep3, and many of its deaths are simply not possible for Eva to have committed.

Then you factor in differing MOs, and it seems clear there must be different killers at times. The question is when, how, and whether ep1 has one. It's very easy to pin ep1 on one person, if you pick a "dead" person.
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Old 2009-11-13, 12:36   Link #3191
Jan-Poo
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The problem is simply as that:

"Is Episode1 solvable by simple logic?"

If yes then Kanon is the murderer

If not then you need to think that someone who faked his own dead killed someone else. Of all the possibilities Shannon is the most acceptable due to the scarce visual conditions, but the rest can be seen clearly and you'd have to think about some very good make up, or a loophole in the red texts.

The more you detach yourself from common sense and simple logic the fuzzier the answer becomes. While there is only one simple explanation, there are many possible difficult explanations.
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Old 2009-11-13, 12:59   Link #3192
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My only problem with Kanon is that Beatrice always seems defensively deflective when he gets brought up as the culprit. Kind of like a "no, no, it wasn't him, it was ME! ME! Why can't you figure it out?" kind of thing, at least to me.

True, she might also be defensive because he's getting close to the answer, but for some reason it doesn't really seem like that (especially with her more recent pleading behavior).

Won't argue that him as the murderer is simplest for EP1, though, because Jessica's behavior is the only real thing I can think of that can be used to argue against that (and who knows, her theatrics may well be an act). Plus there's also the theory that Beatrice has nothing to do with the murders.
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Old 2009-11-13, 13:32   Link #3193
ijriims
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My own made-up dialogues based on my hypothesis Kyrie=Beatrice (part 4):

Continue with the end of part 2. Ep1 just before 2nd twilight

Kyrie: BTW, Genji you might need this (giving him a letter). It is used when you need to separate people from inside the house. As conservative as Natsuhi can be, she would most likely adopt strategy like locking all people in the most secure room. And you should recommend Kinzo's study or you will look too suspicious. Put this letter in the room when you can at least get 3 people pushed outside of the room. I need them for the 6-8 th twilights. Most likely you will be sent out of the room and I have to use you to be sacrifice.

Genji: It is okay for me. But can you alone handle the boiler room?

Kyrie: Don't worry, I just use the smell of burnt body to lure people inside. Though it is somehow a disrespect for Kinzo.

Genji: Master's spirit will always live on. That body is but a empty vessel. There is no need of you to feel uncomfortable.

Kyrie: ........I have to go now.

----------------Check part 2 on how the murder on Eva and Hideyoshi was done--------

(Kanon heard the sound coming from the boiling room)

Kanon: (Now everyone is in Eva's room or in the corridor. And the smell of the body is so strong. It must be Kyrie have open the door and then close it down there!! I have to take revenge for nee-san!!)

Kanon rushed down to the boiler room.

Kumasawa: Kanon!! Don't go!! You may get yourself killed!!

Kanon arrived at the boiler room, opened the door and picked up the butcher.

Kanon: Kyrie!! No! Beatrice!! I know you are here!!

Kyrie: (speaking in the dark place) I don't want you to come first honestly. Kumasawa is behind you, isn't she? I have said I will spare your life, but if you don't leave now. I cannot guarantee your safety, Kumasawa.

Kumasawa: I....I.... will leave now. (running out of the boiler room)

Kanon: I have sworn to myself that if nee-san is killed, then I shall kill you back. I have already assisted you enough. Now you have to pay your life back!! (running to Kyrie)

Kanon stopped suddenly, realizing a stake has already stabbed into his stomach.

Kanon: (How could it be?) And he fell down.

Kyrie: A tripwire and a simple trap. If you have not rushed to hurt me, you will not be the one down. Bye, Kanon (picking up the trap). I really do not want to kill Shannon.... Kumasawa, now you can get the people coming. (leaving from the backdoor)

Battler and other people rushed in after some time.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Nanjo was treating Kanon.

Kanon: .....Nanjo-san.... you know that you could be.... killed, why are you....... still helping Kyrie?

Nanjo:.....Don't talk too much.....My granddaughter needs a large amount of money for surgery. Kyrie knew it and approached me............

Kanon: That Beatrice does use people's weakness............to manipulate them.

Nanjo: ........I don't know. But if not for her, my granddaughter must die soon. So I don't really hate her. And at my old age, life or death is not that important as young people like you. I am willing to sacrifice myself for my granddaughter....

Kanon: ......But she killed nee-san......(cough).........I cannot forgive her.....

Nanjo:.......Fortunately, your wound is not that deep. You will not die if you don't move from now on.

Kanon: ...Say I am dead please. I will have chance to avenge for nee-san if she thought I am dead....

Nanjo: ....Okay, just like I have been hiding Kinzo's death, isn't it? Jessica must be very sad...

Kanon:.......I know. And I shall protect milady with my life as well.

Nanjo: I am leaving now. Hope that we shall see tomorrow's sunlight.

------------------------------------------------------

After Nanjo, Genji, Kumasawa and Maria was kicked out of the study. And entered the parlor.


Maria:Uuu~~ Now I can finally watch TV. It is so boring in grandpa's study.

Nanjo: (whispering to Genji) You placed the letter, didn't you?

Genji: Yes.

Kumasawa: Ohhh, why am I being kicked out of the room? (Though "Beatrice" told me she would not kill me, it must be safer to stay with the children in the study...)

Kyrie, dressed like Beatrice on the portraint, entered the room with the master key. And locked the door.

Maria: Uuuuuuuu~~~ Beatrice!! Take me to the Golden Land now!! U~~

Kyrie: Yes, yes. My lovely apprentice. Soon the ritual is over and we will meet in the Golden Land. (Looking at Nanjo, Genji and Kumasawa) Now we are going to pick the sacrifices for the 6-8th twilight...

Kumasawa: Oh, not me...!! You said you will not kill me.

Kyrie: Yes, I said so. Therefore I will pick Nanjo, Genji and Maria.

Maria: U~~ But Maria has this amulet with me now. So Beatrice you would not hurt me now~~

Kyrie: What?... Shouldn't it be in Natsuhi's possession?

Maria: Battler gave me back. U~~

Kumasawa: What!! That means...!! No!! I don't want to die!!

Kyrie: (ignoring Kumasawa).........in this case. Yes. I cannot choose you now. Maria, can you turn to face the wall and sing lots of songs right now. You are going to forget anything you hear from now on as well.

Maria: U~~~ Beatrice. (She started keep singing songs)

Kyrie: Genji, is it possible to restore the inner phone line?

Genji: Yes. Though the phone line to the outside cannot be restored.

Kyrie: Please restore it right now. I want to invite the people in the study to come down for the last moment. Just to see how they will react if they see Beatrice running around.

Kumasawa: Let me out!! (Kyrie shot Kumasawa in the face, and Genji left the parlor)

Nanjo: ....How horrible!! What sort of a weapon it is?? Can just blast off the face with one shot?

Kyrie: You do not know this Rokkenjima was a secret military base, do you? Just some overpowered gun I have picked up from the underground basement. (Stabbing the stake into Kumasawa's leg)

Nanjo: For the corpses in the garden shed, you used it to make them into ..... that form?

Kyrie: No. I used garden tools because I wanted to make sure half of the face is kept for Krauss, Gohda and Shannon. If I used this gun, maybe the whole head could have been blown off. I haven't used it on humans by now. BTW, did Kanon survive in the end?

Nanjo: ........No.. He did not survive.......Do you plan to kill all people from the beginning?

Kyrie: I see. Yes, and I will also kill myself. But if someone did solve the epigraph and was willing to share it, then "Beatrice" shall stop the ritual. Unfortunately, no one from Ushiromiya family did pay efforts into solving it at all during this two days. I have told you this island was a military base right? I have planted a small timed bomb set to detonate at 00:00 Oct 6. The small bomb would trigger a chain explosion as I also place piles of explosives around the bomb. Basically, this whole mansion will be erased when tomorrow comes.... I think I have talked too much. Bye, Nanjo. You are really a good doctor and grandparent.

Nanjo was killed and staked in the ankle. Genji returned.

Genji: I have restored the inner-phone line. Do you have any order?

Kyrie: I don't have any for you. Genji. Except that you are to be the sacrifice as well.

Genji: (Glimpse at Nanjo and Kumasawa's bodies) I have no problem of it.

Kyrie: Goodnight, Genji. See you in Golden Land.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After Battler discovered the bodies in the parlor. Natsuhi rushed out of the room.

Natsuhi: So here it is. "Meet me before the portrait - Beatrice". Show yourself, Beatrice!!

(Some sound came behind Natsuhi, she turned and shoot)

Kanon: (missed bullet) It's me, madam. Kanon.

Natsuhi: (shocked for a moment, then pointed the gun at him) Why are you here? You should have died!! And why are you holding a gun?

Kanon: I came here because I saw Beatrice coming here. I...... want to revenge on her for Shannon's death!!

Natsuhi: I don't believe you!! You must be Beatrice, right?! You pretended your death and tried to kill us all to get the nonexistent gold yourself!! Yes..yes.. it must be the truth!! You don't have any alibi in all murders. (Natsuhi shot him again)

Kanon: (hit this time) No!!... madam!! Real Beatrice is Kyrie!!

Natsuhi: Shut up!! Kyrie was dead!! (She shot her again and missed this time)

Kanon:...........(You should be the one who have died in the first twilight. If you have died, then Shannon did not need to die!!)

Kanon shot Natsuhi in the forehead.

Kanon lied down and was close to death. Kyrie came out in the darkness.

Kanon: ..........You........Beatrice.........

Kyrie: Bye. Kanon. You should have died in the fifth twilight.

(Kyrie shot Kanon. At this moment, Battler's group also hear this gun shot)


Kyrie: (I don't expect only Natsuhi discovered the letter... I initially expect the whole Battler's group coming to here. Natsuhi's gun was running low on ammunition, I will just change her gun to make her look like she shot herself, indeed it would be more mysterious and like witch's doing)

Kyrie took away her own letter and exchanged her gun with Natsuhi's. She dragged Kanon's body away quickly.

(Battler's group came and Battler picked up the gun. Kyrie appeared and Maria ran towards her)

Battler: I don't believe in witch or magic!!! I will kill you NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kyrie: HAHAHA. Battler, just shoot me then. There are ammunition in your gun.... HAHAHA. You will not have chance to do that soon.

Maria: UUUUU~~~~ Beatrice takes me to Golden Land now~~~

Time has run out.

第九の晩に、魔女は蘇り、誰も生き残れはしない。
第十の晩に、旅は終わり、黄金の郷に至るだろう。

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-11-13 at 14:37.
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Old 2009-11-13, 14:31   Link #3194
Renall
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Originally Posted by the_rogue View Post
My only problem with Kanon is that Beatrice always seems defensively deflective when he gets brought up as the culprit. Kind of like a "no, no, it wasn't him, it was ME! ME! Why can't you figure it out?" kind of thing, at least to me.

True, she might also be defensive because he's getting close to the answer, but for some reason it doesn't really seem like that (especially with her more recent pleading behavior).
Well, part of the problem with "Oh it was Kanon after all!" is that Kanon is one of the 18 people that Battler can feel the least bad about accusing. After all, he barely knows the guy. That seems... cheap to me. Part of the pain of what Battler is realizing is that he has to suspect someone on the island, and making it the sullen servant who hasn't really been around very long isn't that different from blaming it on Person X.

And yet... it seems very clear that Kanon survived in ep1, possibly even to the end. If that's true, what was he doing? Why did he fake his death, if he did? If he didn't, why was his survival kept secret? Did he tell Nanjo and Jessica something important that made them lie to protect him? Was he so badly hurt (if he was hurt at all) that they pretended he was dead to throw the killer(s) off? What's his deal?

Add up the suspicious disappearances in other episodes and he gets very curious, yet his behavior is not necessarily consistent with a murderer. After all, he became a prime suspect in Jessica's death when he disappeared. Why would you want people to think you're the killer?
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Old 2009-11-13, 15:25   Link #3195
Marion
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"Mastermind" and "culprit" can be two different things.

Mastermind thinks up everything. They don't necessarily kill people themselves, they're just the man behind it all. Mastermind is the same person throughout all games and is the 'final boss' of sorts.

There can be one Mastermind but multiple culprits. There are culprits working with the mastermind but also other culprits, who might end up killing for different reasons each time (like how in Higurashi each different scenario had a different one of the kids taking on the role of a murderer)

I personally see Kyrie as a potential mastermind because she IS smart. People want to argue that some of the younger island residents are behind it all (Kanon, George, etc) but you have to think logically: the person making the close room scenarios has to be very smart, because they keep on stumping many people in the games.

Kanon can't be a mastermind. He has an elementary school education and never attended high school, according to EP 2. George may have more potential in that field, but I can't see him doing any type of murders unless Shannon dies, gets involved, etc.
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Old 2009-11-13, 16:54   Link #3196
Jan-Poo
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Well I doubt Kanon is the mastermind and I doubt the murder and the mastermind are the same person. At the very least the mastermind is probably not doing the killing himself in episode1. If he does he doesn't do them all.
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Old 2009-11-13, 18:08   Link #3197
Renall
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
I personally see Kyrie as a potential mastermind because she IS smart. People want to argue that some of the younger island residents are behind it all (Kanon, George, etc) but you have to think logically: the person making the close room scenarios has to be very smart, because they keep on stumping many people in the games.

Kanon can't be a mastermind. He has an elementary school education and never attended high school, according to EP 2. George may have more potential in that field, but I can't see him doing any type of murders unless Shannon dies, gets involved, etc.
No one has ever provided a rational motive for Kyrie to be a mastermind short of "she's smart." And she's hardly the only smart person on the island. George is very knowledgable. Hideyoshi and Eva seem very smart, especially together. Nanjo is well-educated (obviously) and seems very good at never letting on what he knows. What specifically makes Kyrie such an appealing suspect over these people?

And you can't really state Kanon or anyone really is incapable of being a mastermind. Crimes and murder aren't really things you can learn in school. It's entirely possible for someone to be a fiendishly clever killer despite being quite bad at most other things. Who knows? Maybe Kanon's a natural.
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Old 2009-11-13, 18:20   Link #3198
Ttak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Spoiler for long:
Wow Jan-Poo, everything you wrote there was just like what I was discussing with some friends this morning. Kanon is indeed a big suspect on EP 1 and probably EP 2. If he didn't die (when "stabbed" on the heart), it would break all closed rooms that happen later (along with Natsuhi's death). And did someone else have the feeling the scene when he and Jessica are trying to get their hands together while saying "I'm not a furniture anymore..."(EP 2, end of 2nd twilight), this would mean the "death" of Kanon in the room (stated in red), but the born of a "new being", the "real Kanon", using his real name. Then, he didn't really die (real death, of course), escaped the room, and later appeared at the servant's room.
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Old 2009-11-13, 18:33   Link #3199
Marion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
No one has ever provided a rational motive for Kyrie to be a mastermind short of "she's smart." And she's hardly the only smart person on the island. George is very knowledgable. Hideyoshi and Eva seem very smart, especially together. Nanjo is well-educated (obviously) and seems very good at never letting on what he knows. What specifically makes Kyrie such an appealing suspect over these people?

And you can't really state Kanon or anyone really is incapable of being a mastermind. Crimes and murder aren't really things you can learn in school. It's entirely possible for someone to be a fiendishly clever killer despite being quite bad at most other things. Who knows? Maybe Kanon's a natural.
Kanon being the mastermind is HIGHLY unlikely - like I said he's not incredibly well educated and is obviously too impulsive with his anger (which is why he keeps getting stabbed with Wrath). The mastermind is obviously clever and can make up all these closed rooms, which seem to be nearly impossible at times. Not saying Kanon can't be a killer, but being the man behind everything going on I highly doubt it.

As far as motive something can pop up. Kyrie is still very mysterious in terms of character - we have a good taste of her personality and a small digest of her family life through Kasumi (who obviously hates her). Eva being the culprit, ESPECIALLY after Tanabata Day, just doesn't feel right to me - she's a gigantic red herring in EP 3.

Kyrie, however, is appealing because she is very smart, cunning, quick thinking (EP 4 - everyone freaking out and she goes to attack Siesta 410 with a chair) and clearly can be shrew and evil when she wants to be. Nanjo sounds more like an unwilling accomplice to me (what with his sick granddaughter).

Quote:
And did someone else have the feeling the scene when he and Jessica are trying to get their hands together while saying "I'm not a furniture anymore..."(EP 2, end of 2nd twilight), this would mean the "death" of Kanon in the room (stated in red), but the born of a "new being", the "real Kanon", using his real name. Then, he didn't really die (real death, of course), escaped the room, and later appeared at the servant's room.
ugh I hate that theory. It's such a cheap trick to get around red I mean really :| You might as well say the same thing about Shannon whose real name is Sayo.
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Old 2009-11-13, 18:42   Link #3200
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Kanon being the mastermind is HIGHLY unlikely - like I said he's not incredibly well educated and is obviously too impulsive with his anger (which is why he keeps getting stabbed with Wrath). The mastermind is obviously clever and can make up all these closed rooms, which seem to be nearly impossible at times. Not saying Kanon can't be a killer, but being the man behind everything going on I highly doubt it.
Well educated doesn't equal clever. it's something really different. In the dungeon scene in Ep 4 for example I got the feeling that Kanon is rather clever (keeping up with Kyrie's dialoge while his sister was confused). But what you state after that is right. Kanon is too impulsive and fickle to be the mastermind...but you know Beatrice is a really fickle and impulsive person as well.
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