AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Fullmetal Alchemist

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2009-11-11, 21:27   Link #1081
Kirarakim
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
I don't know how Mustang could be forced against his will to perform any kind of transmutation. Alchemy has always been shown to be initiated and focused by the will of the caster. Unless he's being mentally controlled (as Goldtooth, currently being "eaten" by Pride, could be), I don't see it.
Perhaps then it has to do something with Roy's blood being on the circle when the transmutation is starting. Blood has been a common element in the transmutations: Al & Ed's blood mixed and they both were linked during the transmutation. During the Xerxes transmutation: Father in the flask said he used Hohenheim's blood to open the portal. And we can clearly see Roy's blood is on the circle from where Bradley stabbed his hands.

So maybe Pride is controlling Goldtooth's body to do the transmutation but it will be Roy (through his blood) who ends up going through the doors.
I don't even think Bradley will have a chance to tell Roy what to do I think he is going there whether he wants to or not.

But thanks you helped me work it out.
Kirarakim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-11, 21:31   Link #1082
Haladflire65
Senior Member
*Artist
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Normandy SR-2
Age: 19
Yeah, I've always thought that Roy's blood being on the circle was significant; the fact that he's pinned down there.

I'm still confused, though, with who's transmutating what. I still have no idea... I'm dumb.
__________________
Haladflire65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-11, 21:42   Link #1083
Kirarakim
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haladflire65 View Post
Yeah, I've always thought that Roy's blood being on the circle was significant; the fact that he's pinned down there.

I'm still confused, though, with who's transmutating what. I still have no idea... I'm dumb.


I think Pride is forcing Goldtooth to transmute (and I didn't realize it until quigonkenny mentioned mind control).

You will also notice that Goldtooth also seems to be bleeding onto the circle. So I think Roy's blood maybe has to mix with Goldtooth's (who is doing the transmutation) to have him reach the portal.
Kirarakim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-11, 21:45   Link #1084
Haladflire65
Senior Member
*Artist
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Normandy SR-2
Age: 19
So Roy, in fact, is not doing any transmutation?

He's one weird human sacrifice. I'm actually surprised that Arakawa chose to focus on him like this in the climax, instead of more Ed and Al... Not that I'm complaining
__________________
Haladflire65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-11, 21:52   Link #1085
Kirarakim
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
I might have a few details here and there mixed up (like I am not sure if Roy & goldie's blood has to mix or if it is okay just to have Roy's blood on the circle) But I think this is the only thing that makes sense.

And we did see Pride can take control of bodies like he did with Al back in vol. 21.
Kirarakim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-11, 22:23   Link #1086
Haladflire65
Senior Member
*Artist
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Normandy SR-2
Age: 19
I don't think Pride took control of Roy, though. Just Goldtooth, probably. With Wrath holding him down and all... Definately not mentally, either, because you could tell Roy's making some very Roy-like expressions in the last few panels.

Is there anywhere where the rules of transmutation are all written down or something? This is really difficult.
__________________
Haladflire65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-11, 22:26   Link #1087
Kirarakim
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haladflire65 View Post
I don't think Pride took control of Roy, though. Just Goldtooth, probably. With Wrath holding him down and all... Definately not mentally, either, because you could tell Roy's making some very Roy-like expressions in the last few panels.

Is there anywhere where the rules of transmutation are all written down or something? This is really difficult.
I agree with you, Pride is only controlling Goldtooth's body. Roy will only be going along for the ride because he is bleeding onto the circle.
Kirarakim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-11, 23:29   Link #1088
Haladflire65
Senior Member
*Artist
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Normandy SR-2
Age: 19
That makes me feel really sorry for him, the way you said that...

Funny how Roy has to be so forced to go through the gate. He's one strong-willed guy.
__________________
Haladflire65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-12, 01:12   Link #1089
orangejuicetang
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Age: 23
Wow, wow, wow. Slow down here. This is still just speculation. Nowhere has Pride been shown to be able to mindcontrol a person's body through wrapping them in shadow or whatever the hell he's doing.
Next, has anybody ever been forced to perform a transmutation? Their's no evidence either way as to whether alchemy has to be purposeful or if it can be forced.
__________________
WORDS IN THE HEART CANNOT BE TAKEN

If a corrupt court will not behead an evil king, than the watchman should do it himself.
orangejuicetang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-12, 05:11   Link #1090
quigonkenny
WRYYYYY!!
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Elkia
Age: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
Wow, wow, wow. Slow down here. This is still just speculation. Nowhere has Pride been shown to be able to mindcontrol a person's body through wrapping them in shadow or whatever the hell he's doing.
Next, has anybody ever been forced to perform a transmutation? Their's no evidence either way as to whether alchemy has to be purposeful or if it can be forced.
As I stated before: "Alchemy has always been shown to be initiated and focused by the will of the caster." This is why Al, for example, prior to remembering Truth, can use the same basic alchemic array to fix a broken radio or make a crudely formed wall pop out of the ground. You can't accidentally initiate a transmutation, and so you similarly can't be forced to do so against your will.

Of course, there's no reason to assume that, given a skillful enough alchemist, the desired effect of a transmutation couldn't be manipulated during the process... But that's not what we're talking about here.

And I believe Pride suggested when he ate Gluttony that he would gain some of Gluttony's abilities. And he certainly does seem to have gotten more...gluttonous...since then... That does leave the possibility open for Pride to co-opt Goldtooth's or even Kimbley's transmutation ability.
__________________
quigonkenny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-12, 09:07   Link #1091
Kirarakim
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
Wow, wow, wow. Slow down here. This is still just speculation. Nowhere has Pride been shown to be able to mindcontrol a person's body through wrapping them in shadow or whatever the hell he's doing.
Next, has anybody ever been forced to perform a transmutation? Their's no evidence either way as to whether alchemy has to be purposeful or if it can be forced.

To be clear I don't exactly think Pride is controlling Goldtooth's mind but I think Goldtooth is just a shell of a body at this point and Pride is controlling Gold Tooth's body to do the transmutation. And yes we have seen he could control Al's body so it's not out of the question.

In a sense I guess you can say it is really Pride who is doing the transmutation but he is just using Gold Tooth's body to initiate it. Or I guess Pride could just be doing the transmutation completely by himself. I guess we will find out for sure when we see who reaches the portal Roy and....

As for Pride doing transmutation well he did swallow Kimbley. I wonder if this gave him the knowledge.
Kirarakim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-12, 18:52   Link #1092
orangejuicetang
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Age: 23
The biggest problem with this is that if it can't be initiated against the user's will, how the hell is Pride going to make Goldtooth do it? There's quite a few factors here that are out of place if Goldtooth is the one doing the transmuting. First, Pride can't mindcontrol people, so if it is dependent on the will of the alchemist, than Goldtooth still wouldn't be able to use it. He could physically control Al's body by using it as a puppet of sorts. Nothing about controlling his mind. Next, can Homonculus use alchemy? If they could, then they wouldn't have to go through all the trouble of getting five sacrifices. Just get five homonculus to do it, or eat an alchemist and than to it if that's what it takes. Also, everybody who hasn't seen the truth has to actually touch the transmutation circle with their hand in order to transmute. Goldtooth is in the air. There's a reason that Bradley pinned Roy's arm in the center of the transmutation circle instead of just killing him.

Oh, and while rereading the chapter, just before the transmutation happens, Pride looks at Roy and says, "This is the fifth one", and Bradley, who is literally right above Roy, confirms with "The last one."
__________________
WORDS IN THE HEART CANNOT BE TAKEN

If a corrupt court will not behead an evil king, than the watchman should do it himself.
orangejuicetang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-12, 19:20   Link #1093
Kirarakim
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Well it's either Pride doing the transmutation himself or Pride controlling Goldtooth's body to do the transmutation. There is no other option. And someone has to be performing the alchemy.

Quote:
First, Pride can't mindcontrol people, so if it is dependent on the will of the alchemist, than Goldtooth still wouldn't be able to use it. He could physically control Al's body by using it as a puppet of sorts. Nothing about controlling his mind.
Read my post again. I said Pride is controlling Goldtooth's body to do the transmutation, nothing about controlling his mind. Pride stabbed Goldtooth, so I am thinking he might already be dead. Pride is just using the body in the same way he used Al's body. But I still think it is Pride actually doing the alchemy. Just like it was Pride not Al attacking everyone in Vol. 21.

I am also open to the possibility that Pride is not using Gold Tooth's body at all but just completing the transmutation himself. Perhaps transmuting Goldtooth. In fact that probably makes even more sense.

Can Pride do alchemy? Well he couldn't originally but it is quite possible after swallowing Kimbley he gained the ability. After all he gained Gluttony's sense of smell after swallowing him.

Also I am positive that Roy will reach the doors (and thus become the 5th sacrifice) because his blood is on the transmutation circle.
Kirarakim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-12, 21:21   Link #1094
Jarmel
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
The way I figured it was that Pride initiated the transmutation due to Kimblee and they are forcing Mustang to go past the gate as he is already in the circle. Pride is opening the gate essentially and Mustang is getting shoved through the door. The Doctor is material or something like that.

Great chapter all together. My main worry is still whether Arakawa can wrap it up before the anime finishes.
Jarmel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-13, 16:15   Link #1095
GaimeGuy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
No, I'm pretty sure you need to open the gate, not just go through it. That's how they've always referred to it (ie: Lust mentioned that Al "opened the gate," not that he went thrugh it.)

If all you needed to do was go through the gate, then Ling and Envy would be sacrifices.

Which is why I think Mustang was just forced to open thegate himself (perhaps a combination of his blood on the circle, his hands forced to be pressed down, and the philosopher's stone bradley was holding in his hand were able to be used in tandem to force a transmutation that you normally couldn't force otherwise).
GaimeGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-13, 18:04   Link #1096
JackRydden224
Knight of Twelve's Knight
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Orange County
Okay, I guess I am no the only one who doesn't understand just what happened to Mustang. I was thinking that Pride and Wrath forced Roy through the gate but then what's the point if he hasn't done human transmutation?

Oh on the other note. Scar and co is going to have a hard time facing both Pride and Wrath. I'm guessing Greed will come back to finish things.
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=34701&dateline=122081  2182
JackRydden224 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-13, 20:22   Link #1097
Haladflire65
Senior Member
*Artist
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Normandy SR-2
Age: 19
Oh, that'll be awesome if Greed shows up.

Also, I'm wondering what that explosion at the end of the chapter was. Do things usually blow up when the gates are opened? And it seemed like Goldtooth's body went flying...
__________________
Haladflire65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-13, 23:48   Link #1098
quigonkenny
WRYYYYY!!
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Elkia
Age: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by GaimeGuy View Post
No, I'm pretty sure you need to open the gate, not just go through it. That's how they've always referred to it (ie: Lust mentioned that Al "opened the gate," not that he went thrugh it.)

If all you needed to do was go through the gate, then Ling and Envy would be sacrifices.

Which is why I think Mustang was just forced to open thegate himself (perhaps a combination of his blood on the circle, his hands forced to be pressed down, and the philosopher's stone bradley was holding in his hand were able to be used in tandem to force a transmutation that you normally couldn't force otherwise).
Forced or not, Mustang still hasn't gone through the Gate. At most he's been sent to the white room that the Gate is in. It's once he gets there that he'll have to open the Gate. It may be that all that opening the Gate requires once you get there is a certain strength of will and alchemic knowledge, and the Gate will open itself once it senses his presence, like it did with Ed when he saw Al's body.
__________________
quigonkenny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-14, 08:57   Link #1099
Krazzy Angel
despair v/s hope
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: In the realm of thoughts...
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Small One View Post
But in this case Hohenheim is out as well. He just went through the gate back in Xerxes, but he wasn't the one who opened it.
He did not only got through the door, he came out as a philosopher's stone. So I think he must have seen the truth .
__________________
Far away from the hectic world I close my eyes to remember the past days... I still hope to see you again...
Krazzy Angel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-15, 04:44   Link #1100
Ziziphus
Whatever
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: SEA
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by GaimeGuy View Post
If all you needed to do was go through the gate, then Ling and Envy would be sacrifices.
I think going through the gate is all that you need to become a sacrifice, as long as you're an alchemist (ie. Hohenheim), Ling and Envy don't know anything about alchemy so that doesn't count. I assume one must have enough alchemic knowledge first hand to be able to meet Truth at the other side of the gate.
__________________
Let's go Seishun Fishing! -Tsuritama
Ziziphus is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:25.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.