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Old 2009-11-16, 01:15   Link #22081
morbosfist
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Yeah, C.C. does have a lot more fans. Kallen fans are just a lot more vocal here.
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Old 2009-11-16, 01:27   Link #22082
Paladinoras
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Yeah, C.C. does have a lot more fans. Kallen fans are just a lot more vocal here.
Fine, let me rephrase.

People bash C.C way less than they do Kallen. Or maybe they do, but not here, I dunno.
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Old 2009-11-16, 04:36   Link #22083
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
I don't understand the attachment some of you guys have to Kallen. She's the biggest disappointment of all of Code Geass. She had the most potential to really become an interesting, engaging character. Instead she became an empty character whose story ends in episode 8 or 9 of S1.

Season 1 definitely had me hooked on Kallen, specially the early parts. She was a half-Eleven living a double life as a student and a terrorist. She had a junkie mother and a wealthy Britannian father, yet the only aspect of her character that is really explored is her mother. Her brother who is a major motivation is never explored, as is her father.

I don't know about you, but instead of having her run around Asford in a sexy ass revealing as fuck outfit inside a mascot I would've preferred to see how she interacted with her FATHER. I think that interaction would've done more for me in terms of liking her, as opposed to just the plain indifference I have towards her. IDK I feel like most of the development time spent on Kallen was horribly managed and that didn't end up doing much for her as a character.
Oh please, even though we didn't get the BG they kept promising us in season 2, you can find way worse when it comes to character managment in Code Geass.

Between useless characters, sudden "change of mind" characters, and characters with promise of an awesome BG who turn out to have been slave in the past, I don't think she was this bad devellopped in the end.

I'd be the first one whining about the change of devellopemnt but in the end she is still one of the most devellopped character of season 2, and by far. Which is awesome since every character who is not Lelouch in this show is doomed.

So yeah, I think she was pretty useful and awesome. In the end her devellopment with Lelouch wasn't for shit and the guy learnt from her. This plus the fact she saved his pretty face more than once, so yeah, Even at the surface, the girl wasn't there to bake cookies.

You Disagree ? Cool, but I don't care. You can't understand the whole world.

And yes Paladinoras, C.C. is way less bashed than Kallen. While the girl is even more useless than Kallen in the majority of the serie (Don't misunderstood me, I love her (when her fans aren't around turning her into Mary Chi Chi Sue) but let's call a cat, a cat.

And Kallen is awesome, that's it.
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Old 2009-11-16, 07:19   Link #22084
Sol Falling
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lol. As for me though, I certainly bash C.C. more than Kallen. They were on the wrong side from the beginning, though, so I don't think character development or anything could have done anything for my disapproval of these characters. One followed and fought for a man following a destructive path based on mistaken perceptions of reality, while the other encouraged said misconceptions and pushed him down that path in the first place. Both are regrettable things (to me), but C.C.'s sin is obviously much greater.
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Old 2009-11-16, 07:32   Link #22085
bladeofdarkness
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your phrasing of the "wrong" side begs to quetions what the "right" side would be ?
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Old 2009-11-16, 09:54   Link #22086
Sol Falling
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:P I meant 'the wrong side for me to like/approve of', more specifically by their relation to Lelouch, I suppose. Though there are basically only two characters who qualify (Shirley and Suzaku). Between Lelouch and Suzaku, Suzaku is on the 'right' side because he does not harbour the mistaken belief that (executive) Britannia (Charles and the royal family) is his personal enemy. Between Shirley, Kallen, and C.C., Shirley is on the 'right' side because she discourages Lelouch's mistaken pursuit of revenge, Kallen is approximately neutral because she merely follows it, while C.C. is a lying whore for encouraging it.

My personal opinions don't really belong in the Kallen thread, though. I guess the Lelouch thread would be more appropriate for further discussion. Was just mentioning that Kallen does get less flak than C.C. from me personally.
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Old 2009-11-16, 16:44   Link #22087
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Eh this Kallen and C.C. hate really pisses me off. I don't think anyone should take this so seriously, I mean really calling an anime character a lying whore? It's a bit much. By the way it seems like you, Sol Falling, probably don't like Lelouch either since you're bashing C.C. and Kallen whose opinions tend to be closer to his. Whatever.

I like strong women, I like female pilots, I like people who fight for their beliefs and are passionate. Really Kallen has a lot more going for her in personality and character development than most of them. It's not just because of her looks. I hate female character bashing!
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Old 2009-11-16, 17:09   Link #22088
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Originally Posted by Nostalgia View Post
Eh this Kallen and C.C. hate really pisses me off. I don't think anyone should take this so seriously, I mean really calling an anime character a lying whore? It's a bit much. By the way it seems like you, Sol Falling, probably don't like Lelouch either since you're bashing C.C. and Kallen whose opinions tend to be closer to his. Whatever.

I like strong women, I like female pilots, I like people who fight for their beliefs and are passionate. Really Kallen has a lot more going for her in personality and character development than most of them. It's not just because of her looks. I hate female character bashing!
Hmm, doesn't take much to piss you off, does it? Sol was simply stating his opinion about C.C. and Kallen. And so what if Sol doesn't like Lelouch? (of course, I'm not saying he does) That's just his opinion and he's stating it in a very fair and civilized manner. Everyone has characters they do and don't like and Sol (as well as the rest) were stating our opinions and following the flow of the conversation.

Oh, and you hate "female" character bashing? Does that mean you approve of male character bashing?
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Old 2009-11-16, 18:59   Link #22089
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No, I suppose it doesn't, did I do something to piss you off too? I don't really like any character bashing, but there tends to be a lot more female character bashing for sure. Didn't seem like very civil bashing to me.
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Old 2009-11-16, 19:00   Link #22090
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Your reason for disapproval of Kallen is faulty at the core, Sol Falling. Britannia really was at fault.

And this isn't the first time you made that kind of argument.

Last edited by azul120; 2009-11-16 at 19:18.
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Old 2009-11-16, 19:44   Link #22091
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I also have to say a wrong and a right side? The heroes of the anime are supposed to be Lelouch and his gang but I suppose this is matter of opinion. Britannia treated Japan horribly and if you think it's wrong to be vengeful for that and want to change it even if there are lives lost than well I'd hate to know what you think of some of the things in real life.
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Old 2009-11-16, 23:35   Link #22092
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Your reason for disapproval of Kallen is faulty at the core, Sol Falling. Britannia really was at fault.

And this isn't the first time you made that kind of argument.
Britannia's fault or lack of it has nothing to do with my position on Kallen. Between external revolution (i.e. Lelouch, Kallen) and internal reform (i.e. Suzaku), the show showed neither to be absolutely correct. What was clearly indicated, however, was that Lelouch's search for vengeance was wrong--his mistrust and hatred for the royal family, and desire to take personal revenge on them for the death of his mother (including Charles), was misguided. Given that this constitutes a significant and at times even primary part of Lelouch's motivations, my 'right'/'wrong' side designation was based on whether they encouraged/discouraged this.

And yeah, this argument isn't really new. If you're familiar with it, then perhaps we can move on.

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Originally Posted by Nostalgia View Post
I also have to say a wrong and a right side? The heroes of the anime are supposed to be Lelouch and his gang but I suppose this is matter of opinion. Britannia treated Japan horribly and if you think it's wrong to be vengeful for that and want to change it even if there are lives lost than well I'd hate to know what you think of some of the things in real life.
The 'wrong' and 'right' side I was talking about was my subjective designation. Nobody else has to choose sides at all. I'd personally categorize the only true villains of the series to be the variably featured Britannian nobles. A slightly looser definition would include Charles, Schneizel, and occasionally Lelouch. Everybody else was a protagonist ('hero') on some level.

And the vengeance I was talking about was Lelouch's personal one. Although I do think revenge is a bit of a dead end in general.
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Old 2009-11-16, 23:41   Link #22093
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Britannia's fault or lack of it has nothing to do with my position on Kallen. Between external revolution (i.e. Lelouch, Kallen) and internal reform (i.e. Suzaku), the show showed neither to be absolutely correct. What was clearly indicated, however, was that Lelouch's search for vengeance was wrong--his mistrust and hatred for the royal family, and desire to take personal revenge on them for the death of his mother (including Charles), was misguided. Given that this constitutes a significant and at times even primary part of Lelouch's motivations, my 'right'/'wrong' side designation was based on whether they encouraged/discouraged this.

And yeah, this argument isn't really new. If you're familiar with it, then perhaps we can move on.



The 'wrong' and 'right' side I was talking about was my subjective designation. Nobody else has to choose sides at all. I'd personally categorize the only true villains of the series to be the variably featured Britannian nobles. A slightly looser definition would include Charles, Schneizel, and occasionally Lelouch. Everybody else was a protagonist ('hero') on some level.

And the vengeance I was talking about was Lelouch's personal one. Although I do think revenge is a bit of a dead end in general.
If you include Lelouch, then you'd also have to include the likes of Cornelia, but definitely V. V., above everyone else, as he even betrayed Charles.
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Old 2009-11-18, 07:47   Link #22094
Paladinoras
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Britannia's fault or lack of it has nothing to do with my position on Kallen. Between external revolution (i.e. Lelouch, Kallen) and internal reform (i.e. Suzaku), the show showed neither to be absolutely correct. What was clearly indicated, however, was that Lelouch's search for vengeance was wrong--his mistrust and hatred for the royal family, and desire to take personal revenge on them for the death of his mother (including Charles), was misguided. Given that this constitutes a significant and at times even primary part of Lelouch's motivations, my 'right'/'wrong' side designation was based on whether they encouraged/discouraged this.
Not necessarily. Lelouch's search for vengeance have never been shown to be incredibly harmful. The main motif of Code Geass was never "Revenge is always wrong". His mistrust and hatred of the royal family bore fruit, they are all a corrupt bunch filled with internal squabbling which leads to death and destruction. The show never showed it as misguided, in fact, they showed it as a GOOD thing that Lelouch hated them. And no, in the end, Lelouch's primary motivation was simply to make a better world for Nunally and his friends rather than destroying the royal family. Wanting to find out the truth behind the death of his mother always came second to Nunally.

But this is in the wrong thread anyways, so why the hell am I even posting this.
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Old 2009-11-18, 08:10   Link #22095
bladeofdarkness
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the two things are not connected
kallen's motivation and lelouch's motivation are NOT the same at all
they are simply allies in the same struggle because their enemy is the same
lelouch does not care all that much about japan, while kallen does not care about his vendetta (and is unaware of it during season 1)
saying "kallen's on the wrong side" because lelouch's motivation is flawed (to an extent) is completely missing the point

the japanese liberation movement (kallen's motivation) is by default the RIGHT SIDE because britannia is by default the WRONG side as an occupying oppressive racist regime that rivals NAZI Germany in sheer horrible meanness
and hence, anyone who fights for them is by default on the wrong side
suzaku's goal, while admirable sounding, is consistently shown to be misguided idealism at best
and later revealed to be outright self deluded (his REAL aim is to get himself killed, and he's just fooling himself in claiming otherwise)

lelouch high jacks the japanese liberation movement under the pretext of fighting for japan
and kallen follows him in season one because she (like everyone else) BELIEVES in that pretext
and in season 2 she follows him because she accepts that freeing japan might be a result of his actions (she tells him she follows "zero", and not him)

arguing that she's wrong because she follows a man who has ulterior motives of his own in addition to accomplishing her own goal is hardly convincing
especially in light of the fact that his own goals are not all that wrong either

@Paladinoras
you are wrong in thinking that lelouch's goal of destroying britannia and his goal of creating a better world for nunnaly are two different goals
the two are one and the same
its creating a better world for nunnaly BY destroying britannia
because if they are discovered they would be used as pawns again or outright murdered
its nunnaly who wishes for a gentler world
lelouch simply wants one where THAT wont happen
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Old 2009-11-18, 08:57   Link #22096
Paladinoras
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post

@Paladinoras
you are wrong in thinking that lelouch's goal of destroying britannia and his goal of creating a better world for nunnaly are two different goals
the two are one and the same
its creating a better world for nunnaly BY destroying britannia
because if they are discovered they would be used as pawns again or outright murdered
its nunnaly who wishes for a gentler world
lelouch simply wants one where THAT wont happen
I wanted to reply...but realized we are in the wrong thread. Nvm
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Old 2009-11-18, 08:57   Link #22097
bladeofdarkness
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I wanted to reply...but realized we are in the wrong thread. Nvm
answer in the lelouch thread if you want
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Old 2009-11-18, 12:38   Link #22098
Sol Falling
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the two things are not connected
kallen's motivation and lelouch's motivation are NOT the same at all
they are simply allies in the same struggle because their enemy is the same
lelouch does not care all that much about japan, while kallen does not care about his vendetta (and is unaware of it during season 1)
saying "kallen's on the wrong side" because lelouch's motivation is flawed (to an extent) is completely missing the point

the japanese liberation movement (kallen's motivation) is by default the RIGHT SIDE because britannia is by default the WRONG side as an occupying oppressive racist regime that rivals NAZI Germany in sheer horrible meanness
and hence, anyone who fights for them is by default on the wrong side
suzaku's goal, while admirable sounding, is consistently shown to be misguided idealism at best
and later revealed to be outright self deluded (his REAL aim is to get himself killed, and he's just fooling himself in claiming otherwise)

lelouch high jacks the japanese liberation movement under the pretext of fighting for japan
and kallen follows him in season one because she (like everyone else) BELIEVES in that pretext
and in season 2 she follows him because she accepts that freeing japan might be a result of his actions (she tells him she follows "zero", and not him)

arguing that she's wrong because she follows a man who has ulterior motives of his own in addition to accomplishing her own goal is hardly convincing
especially in light of the fact that his own goals are not all that wrong either
I disagree on the Suzaku issue, but Kallen's unrelatedness to Lelouch's motivations is exactly why she is 'approximately neutral'. Although Kallen represents a 'legitimate' motivation for Lelouch's resistance movement, the fact that she mostly just follows him prevents me from percieving her as an actor in the revolution-reform conflict on the level of Lelouch and Suzaku. Or take the fact that that there was no clear winner for that conflict anyway--this ultimately means that my basis for judging her lies in her relationship with Lelouch personally.

To clarify further: in terms of 'good' realized on all levels within the show Code Geass, to me Kallen is approximately neutral (more minus than plus honestly). Seeing as I'm not compelled by her personality, this leaves her on the 'wrong side' for me to like her. The 'sides' I'm talking about are not limited to political affiliations, as that is a grey area issue, but rather the positions/roles of the characters within the show as a whole.
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Old 2009-11-18, 13:03   Link #22099
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and yet you consider sheirly to be on the positive side
despite her belonging to the side of the evil empire (its only grey if you're color blind, and even then its dark grey)
taking no part at all in trying to either change its ways or trying to drive it out of where it has no place being
and, in your words, trying to "discourage" the the man who does try to oppose it

interesting...
not that i have something against shierly mind you, but i just dont follow your rational

and what about the suzaku issue do you disagree with exactly ?
his way is not only wrong from a moral stand point (as it would forever condemn the Japanese to being britannian servants)
but also false in its basic nature (since its only an excuse to try and get himself killed)
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Old 2009-11-18, 14:31   Link #22100
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Shirley being uninvolved in the political/military struggle is no reason to condemn her. (For being a high school student, I think being the first one to try to welcome an 'eleven' into their heretofore Britannian-exclusive school is enough to qualify as support for 'change'). As for what Shirley discouraged specifically, it was more Lelouch's destructive and self-damaging tendencies than his desire to change the world.

As for my disagreements on Suzaku: I don't think he was wrong from a moral standpoint, because government is something society constructed. National identity is not something I consider fundamental to human life. Regardless of the legitimacy of the Britannian occupation, the ultimate goal of change should simply be whether the people there can be happy. As the system did allow participation by conquered peoples, trying to encourage it and improve conditions instead of destroying it wasn't morally wrong.

As for Suzaku's stance being an 'excuse' to enact his death wish, this isn't true. Suzaku's death wish is in addition to his desire to help the Japanese people. And once he met Euphie, he began to abandon the self-punishment entirely. You can level the same illegitimacy of motivation at Kallen, who was fighting Britannia at the start of the series only to lash out for the death of her brother (she had no 'hope' for achieving anything). Only in meeting Zero did her destructive impulse begin to turn into a positive one (hope for actually liberating Japan). In fact, by the time Suzaku lost Euphie, he had lost any desire for self-punishment, instead focusing almost entirely (aside from helping the people his way) on getting revenge on Zero. Suzaku's deathwish doesn't even factor again until after he blows up Tokyo.
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