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View Poll Results: Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Episode 21 Rating
Perfect 10 36 28.35%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 37 29.13%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 25 19.69%
7 out of 10 : Good 15 11.81%
6 out of 10 : Average 4 3.15%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 5 3.94%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 5 3.94%
Voters: 127. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-11-20, 02:25   Link #101
immblueversion
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Originally Posted by winkel View Post
Ah yes, I forgot about that scene... safety net huh

The meeting took place, but it would be a magical event in line with all the other magical events were seeing in 1998's story, and in line with all the events of magic we see throughout the series. So it's still a part of the question of 'did this and all the other events with the Sisters and Maria really happen, or is Ange due for the wards.'

But Bernkastel had to pull an Ange to bring her to the 1986 chessboard (when she saw off the families) + Purgatorio... and I can't really wrap myself around the idea that they're the same person...

So there should still be an explanation of how a Meta-Ange appeared in Purgatorio with Battler... unless of course, she's a fake again like Eva-Beatrice. But she seems too heavy a character to suddenly leave like that at the end of this game.


Ah yes, this. I wondered about that greatly last ep, but I guess I forgot to bring it up.

I suppose the timelessness notion makes sense... they're all existing there at the moment, but doesn't mean that they were summoned in the time frame that they first appeared on stage. Perhaps their latest versions... and since Battler never really lived pats 1986, he never knew of the world beyond that. The same would not necessarily hold true for magical beings and their re-occurrence.
Who ever said Evatrice was fake?

It was Beatrice's mood change that was fake. Everything else was skillfully manipulated by Beatrice, but not fake.
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Old 2009-11-20, 03:01   Link #102
Leinne
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Originally Posted by immblueversion View Post
Who ever said Evatrice was fake?

It was Beatrice's mood change that was fake. Everything else was skillfully manipulated by Beatrice, but not fake.
Lambda in the VN tea party, she implies Beato had just been using Evatrice just to pull her act
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Old 2009-11-20, 03:32   Link #103
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wow it's surprising but I think the ep was good expect the few obvious errors , and crossover - Ooshi was just cool . 8/10
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Old 2009-11-20, 04:23   Link #104
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L5 Maria on Island 4, ready for delivery.
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Old 2009-11-20, 06:38   Link #105
-Sho-
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It's slow .
Hope next episode will bring us more punch !
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Old 2009-11-20, 07:50   Link #106
risingstar3110
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So.... one day Bern will tell Meta-Ange about her story of Rika, and Meta-Ange will find her hero when it comes to using chair effectively inside a classroom ^^

Hmm... Ange denied Sakutarou (in 1995-1998) somehow lead or connect to the event when Sakutarou "died" in Maria's mind... (in 1984-1986). That's strange
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Old 2009-11-20, 08:03   Link #107
Vegitto-kun
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So.... one day Bern will tell Meta-Ange about her story of Rika, and Meta-Ange will find her hero when it comes to using chair effectively inside a classroom ^^

Hmm... Ange denied Sakutarou (in 1995-1998) somehow lead or connect to the event when Sakutarou "died" in Maria's mind... (in 1984-1986). That's strange
the maria and saku-uryuu are from the book and for some reason have seperate minds i guess and then she denied the book versions
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Old 2009-11-20, 08:08   Link #108
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by risingstar3110 View Post
So.... one day Bern will tell Meta-Ange about her story of Rika, and Meta-Ange will find her hero when it comes to using chair effectively inside a classroom ^^

Hmm... Ange denied Sakutarou (in 1995-1998) somehow lead or connect to the event when Sakutarou "died" in Maria's mind... (in 1984-1986). That's strange
Ange denied Sakutaro back in 1985 (or 1984) as seen in the flashback. In the school scene Ange remembers that old event (she was 5 or 4 at that time so it's only natural she didn't remember until that point) because of a sort of dejà-vu, since she's doing it again.

Also take note that Maria in that occasion said "You are no longer part of Mariage Sorciere!" and later in this episode Ange confirms that she was part of it but then she's got excommunicated.
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Old 2009-11-20, 08:24   Link #109
risingstar3110
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The problem is from Ange's POV (or illusion), until the moment Ange denied Sakutarou's existence (inside the classroom), Maria still believe in Sakutarou's existence . However, the next time Ange saw Sakutarou (on the boat), Sakutarou have already be denied (believed to be dead) by Maria. That's strange, isn't it?

Btw, a question, which's kind of related to Umineko. Not specifically to this episode, but this arc....
Spoiler for the end of Higurashi Kai, from Tips:
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Old 2009-11-20, 08:45   Link #110
Jan-Poo
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That's a thing you can only explain from an anti-fantasy perspective.

The one that Ange sees is not Maria but her own delusion or a projection of the Maria in her memories, so Ange can still imagine Maria having fun with Sakutaro.

However from an anti-mystery perspective I really don't know how you can justify this fact. Since the time Sakutaro was "killed" by Rosa, Maria was unable to summon him, and even Beatrice was unable to revive him.
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Old 2009-11-20, 08:55   Link #111
Vegitto-kun
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That's a thing you can only explain from an anti-fantasy perspective.

The one that Ange sees is not Maria but her own delusion or a projection of the Maria in her memories, so Ange can still imagine Maria having fun with Sakutaro.

However from an anti-mystery perspective I really don't know how you can justify this fact. Since the time Sakutaro was "killed" by Rosa, Maria was unable to summon him, and even Beatrice was unable to revive him.
I see it like this

untill the moment before saku-uryuu being killed she was reading the part where they were still together so she visualized them both but after that she stopped imaging him because maria said he was dead


or something liek that
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Old 2009-11-20, 09:59   Link #112
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Can anyone explain to me why the Stakes didn't listen to Ange and attack her classmates in this episode?

She's a witch. They're her furniture. Why wouldn't they obey her orders the same way they did under Beato as their master?

The only way I can explain it is that they aren't real. Meta-Beatrice is obviously showing Battler a false series of events in the games.

Also, her dorm mates, class mates and Juza don't ever witness them. The Stakes must be in her head.

It's the same for Maria and Sakutaro. He/It? never talks in Rosa's presence. I'm beginning to think that there is the real Beatrice, Meta-Beatrice and the Beatrice Maria created in her head.

Everything seems to stem from Maria. I hope this doesn't turn into another Paranoia Agent.

Somehow Maria filled Ange's head with non-sense when they were young and it's now clouding their perception of events.
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Old 2009-11-20, 10:09   Link #113
MeoTwister5
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Originally Posted by lubczyk View Post
Can anyone explain to me why the Stakes didn't listen to Ange and attack her classmates in this episode?

She's a witch. They're her furniture. Why wouldn't they obey her orders the same way they did under Beato as their master?

The only way I can explain it is that they aren't real. Meta-Beatrice is obviously showing Battler a false series of events in the games.

Also, her dorm mates, class mates and Juza don't ever witness them. The Stakes must be in her head.

It's the same for Maria and Sakutaro. He/It? never talks in Rosa's presence. I'm beginning to think that there is the real Beatrice, Meta-Beatrice and the Beatrice Maria created in her head.

Everything seems to stem from Maria. I hope this doesn't turn into another Paranoia Agent.

Somehow Maria filled Ange's head with non-sense when they were young and it's now clouding their perception of events.
In that scene Ange comes to question if the Stakes are real. Remember as Maria tells her that Magic is all about belief as part of the Mariage Sociere (sp?). From a magical perespective you can say that they didn't work because she no longer really believed in magic. The interpretation of the scene really varies.
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Old 2009-11-20, 10:15   Link #114
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Als if there are too many unbelieving people in a place they cant materialise because of the anti-magic toxins, I think the siesta sisters said that when they were hunting the people in the guest house
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Old 2009-11-20, 10:16   Link #115
lubczyk
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Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
In that scene Ange comes to question if the Stakes are real. Remember as Maria tells her that Magic is all about belief as part of the Mariage Sociere (sp?). From a magical perespective you can say that they didn't work because she no longer really believed in magic. The interpretation of the scene really varies.
Gravity exists whether you believe in it or not.

Unicorns don't exists whether you believe in them on not.

It's just a distraction Beatrice is using trying to keep Battler from learning the cold hard "TRUTH."

Whether magic exists or not is irrelevant to the actual murders on the island.
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Old 2009-11-20, 10:18   Link #116
Riskbreaker
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Can anyone explain to me why the Stakes didn't listen to Ange and attack her classmates in this episode?

She's a witch. They're her furniture. Why wouldn't they obey her orders the same way they did under Beato as their master?
i could be wrong but:

1. The stakes couldn't take physical form because they had no vessel that would allow for them to house their spirits. Namely, their stake forms.

2. Ange's mentality. As i understand it, until she herself has killed someone and experience what it meant to kill & as well as the thought process behind it, the stakes couldn't replicate exactly what she wanted them to do. In the sound novel, they hurriedly tried to explain that, but naturally, Ange wouldn't have any of this.
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Old 2009-11-20, 10:20   Link #117
lubczyk
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Originally Posted by Vegitto-kun View Post
Als if there are too many unbelieving people in a place they cant materialise because of the anti-magic toxins, I think the siesta sisters said that when they were hunting the people in the guest house
Can this be quantified and measured somehow? The Siestas didn't have any problem with Kryie, Rudolf and Hideyoshi. I would consider those three really rational people. Kryie's magic toxins alone could have probably killed every magic being on the island.
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Old 2009-11-20, 10:22   Link #118
MeoTwister5
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Originally Posted by lubczyk View Post
Gravity exists whether you believe in it or not.

Unicorns don't exists whether you believe in them on not.

It's just a distraction Beatrice is using trying to keep Battler from learning the cold hard "TRUTH."

Whether magic exists or not is irrelevant to the actual murders on the island.
You miss my point. The argument isn't whether or not magic exists whether you believe in it or not rather the effects of magic and how the user manages to wield them depends on belief. Endless 9 on Battler shows that his strong belief against magic gives him such a strong toxin barrier that the siestas can't hit him. Likewise Maria and Beatrice in Ange's head/memory tell her that your own belief in magic affects your ability to use it. That said, magic's relative effects depend on the wielder and user.

Assuming it exists inside the board, of course.
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Old 2009-11-20, 10:22   Link #119
lubczyk
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i could be wrong but:

1. The stakes couldn't take physical form because they had no vessel that would allow for them to house their spirits. Namely, their stake forms.

2. Ange's mentality. As i understand it, until she herself has killed someone and experience what it meant to kill & as well as the thought process behind it, the stakes couldn't replicate exactly what she wanted them to do. In the sound novel, they hurriedly tried to explain that, but naturally, Ange wouldn't have any of this.
From this information, can we infer that Beatrice herself, as in the real piece Beatrice, had committed murder before?
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Old 2009-11-20, 10:29   Link #120
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From this information, can we infer that Beatrice herself, as in the real piece Beatrice, had committed murder before?
Yep, it would seem so. Though i imagine it came about via magical means much like Eva-Beatrice. Which would explain why Eva had no problems with the stakes and later on with the Siestas. Seeing as Eva experienced it all through her fun & games with Rosa and Maria.
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