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Old 2009-11-17, 16:18   Link #61
Jintor
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I blame Mikuru. It's all her fault.
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Old 2009-11-17, 21:38   Link #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tabasco View Post
You almost have to compare the last two novels against the first two to spot major, obvious differences.

Ex: Melancholy or Baseball game Haruhi against the Snowy Mountain Syndrome or Intrigues version. Or, for that matter, early novel Yuki against the Day of Sagittarius or Intrigues model.
If anything, that would mean the character development moves along at a pretty brisk pace. Assuming that Haruhi covers all three years of high school, the series could end up being in the twenties or thirties in terms of volume count, in which case the characters showing a substantial amount of growth by number six or seven would be pretty damn fast.
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Old 2009-11-18, 09:13   Link #63
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Time wise, yes. In terms of volume size, it took six or seven books to get there.

I agree with Jintor, this is obviously all part of Mikuru's plan to keep the brigade in a state of stasis.
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Old 2009-11-18, 19:12   Link #64
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At least the Haruhi franchise isn't like Seinfield in terms of character development, where no single character has learned any life lessons (in any manner) by the time the series ended. "No hugging, no learning."
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Old 2009-11-18, 23:15   Link #65
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One of several reasons I never got into that show.

I wonder though, how tight a control the time travelers need over events in order to make them come out 'just as planned'. Evidence to date suggests theyonly need to more or less drop the hapless agent (Kyon) into the right time period and let nature take its course, but all of those instances were single, relatively simple events that either happened or didn't.
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Old 2009-11-19, 02:59   Link #66
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Tabasco View Post
One of several reasons I never got into that show.

I wonder though, how tight a control the time travelers need over events in order to make them come out 'just as planned'. Evidence to date suggests theyonly need to more or less drop the hapless agent (Kyon) into the right time period and let nature take its course, but all of those instances were single, relatively simple events that either happened or didn't.
You make it sound like Time travellers are actually running the show, when they are the ones being run. Trust me, they don't PLAN anything. "Planning" assumes that you have the ability to make decisions. There is just "things that happened" and "things that didn't happen". They are more trapped and enslaved than Kyon is. At least Kyon makes the correct actions without knowing that it was what he needed to do. Time Travelers are unable to control their own actions.
(On that note, that is one explanation on why Yuki locked herself away from knowing the future; it is more of a burden than a help to have every decision pre-determined.)
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Old 2009-11-19, 03:35   Link #67
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It's less that Time Travellers are unable to control their own actions and more than any action that a Time Traveller takes has already always going to have been done. Or was it that any action that will be done has already been done, or that any action that a Time Travellers takes was will be has been done...
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Old 2009-11-19, 03:40   Link #68
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It's less that Time Travellers are unable to control their own actions and more than any action that a Time Traveller takes has already always going to have been done. Or was it that any action that will be done has already been done, or that any action that a Time Travellers takes was will be has been done...
Of course, the only person who doesn't follow that rule is Haruhi... The one who can tell temporal stability to get stuffed.
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Old 2009-11-19, 08:31   Link #69
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At the moment she seems to be following normal rules of causality, judging by the whole 'Three Years ago' bullshit going on.
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Old 2009-11-19, 08:34   Link #70
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At the moment she seems to be following normal rules of causality, judging by the whole 'Three Years ago' bullshit going on.
"At the moment". As in, she spent about 500 years with the past and future completely destroyed. Causality ceased to exist in that Endless Eight time, even if she did repair the damage afterwards.
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Old 2009-11-19, 08:36   Link #71
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Well, you know. She has jerk privileges.
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Old 2009-11-19, 08:43   Link #72
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"She's a troublemaker, whether she's asleep or awake!"

(So looking forward to that scene.)
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Old 2009-11-19, 09:27   Link #73
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Well, you know. She has jerk privileges.
Not trying to blame Haruhi, in this case. It's not her fault nobody told her she is doing any harm.

I am just pointing out that it is clear Haruhi is free to violate any rules in the world, including temporal stability. And that so far, time travelers have no such freedom. (Of course, it wouldn't stop some extremists from trying. But my theory on this is off-topic in this thread; it would be relevant only in an hypothetical season 3 of Haruhi.)
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Old 2009-11-19, 18:55   Link #74
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You make it sound like Time travellers are actually running the show, when they are the ones being run. Trust me, they don't PLAN anything. "Planning" assumes that you have the ability to make decisions. There is just "things that happened" and "things that didn't happen". They are more trapped and enslaved than Kyon is. At least Kyon makes the correct actions without knowing that it was what he needed to do. Time Travelers are unable to control their own actions.
(On that note, that is one explanation on why Yuki locked herself away from knowing the future; it is more of a burden than a help to have every decision pre-determined.)

That's the story as far as Mikuru knows it, granted. And it is mostly true. But Kyon was able to make changes in how things went down, albeit small ones. So what I wonder is how much of a random factor there really is.
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Old 2009-11-19, 19:30   Link #75
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Wait, does Kyon make changes, or does he merely fulfil changes that he has already made?
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Old 2009-11-19, 21:06   Link #76
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Wait, does Kyon make changes, or does he merely fulfil changes that he has already made?
Kyon restores the universe to its original timeline, so no, he doesn't change anything. Not really.
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Old 2009-11-19, 22:11   Link #77
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So Kyon is sort of a walking save point?

Anyway, I suppose you could look at it that Kyon is the only one besides Haruhi who is allowed to tinker with reality, if only by her somehow allowing him the latitude to act as a sort of roving error correcter.
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Old 2009-11-20, 03:57   Link #78
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Wait, does Kyon make changes, or does he merely fulfil changes that he has already made?
As far as Kyon is concerned, as long as he isn't ordered to do anything directly, there is no difference.

In fact, it is clear that Adult Mikuru is trying to avoid giving Kyon direct demands. She isn't out to order Kyon around, only to maintain temporal stability. And since Temporal stability is self-correcting to a degree, giving clues to Kyon and making a game out of it seems to be the smart thing to do. The idea being, there isn't any point being forceful about it. Ask nicely and Kyon will work something out, he is a reasonable guy.
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Old 2009-11-20, 06:37   Link #79
Jintor
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
As far as Kyon is concerned, as long as he isn't ordered to do anything directly, there is no difference.

In fact, it is clear that Adult Mikuru is trying to avoid giving Kyon direct demands. She isn't out to order Kyon around, only to maintain temporal stability. And since Temporal stability is self-correcting to a degree, giving clues to Kyon and making a game out of it seems to be the smart thing to do. The idea being, there isn't any point being forceful about it. Ask nicely and Kyon will work something out, he is a reasonable guy.
Well, since she's ensuring temporal stability, that implies that she is merely fulfilling what has already happened, no?
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Old 2009-11-20, 07:18   Link #80
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
"At the moment". As in, she spent about 500 years with the past and future completely destroyed. Causality ceased to exist in that Endless Eight time, even if she did repair the damage afterwards.
Didn't Koizumi explain that they those two weeks they were stuck in had merely been 'cut off'? i.e. past and future still existed.
But then again, as Mikuru-chan says, not everything Koizumi says is correct.
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