AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Related Topics > Games

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2009-11-23, 22:07   Link #41
RWBladewing
Elderly "Love Live!" Fan
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Listening to "Aishiteru Banzai!" on repeat
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by brocko View Post
Wait so lets say the guy chump blocks my 5/5 with two 4/4's, does that mean i'm forced into assign lethal damage? (eg: i HAVE to assign 4 damage to one as opposed to assigning 3dmg on A and 2dmg on B, which wouldn't be lethal for both but would weaken them enough for a pyroclasm to finish em both off)
The linked article explains pretty much everything but in short, yes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
WTF, mana burn..... really? how the hell is mindslaver supposed to win then?
ps those psuedo invasion taplands are can you say BROKEN talk about super mana fixing outside of green or artifacts

after reading that I have returned to find my childhood up in flames, and this fire leaves nothing in it's path, even the tears clinging to my check have been claimed by this insatiable fire... I pour this drink for a fallen friend.
Yeah, that broke quite a few cards or at least changed how they function. At least Mindslaver can still do something. Citadel of Pain literally does nothing now. And Braid of Fire is now just a free mana source with no drawback which was obviously not intended.

Kinda funny how many cards the combat changes ruined though. From the latest set, Carnage Altar could have been a pretty decent card for limited but because of the rules update is completely unplayable garbage, one of the top 5 worst cards in the entire set.
RWBladewing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-23, 22:09   Link #42
Nosauz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by RWBladewing View Post
Kinda funny how many cards the combat changes ruined though. From the latest set, Carnage Altar could have been a pretty decent card for limited but because of the rules update is completely unplayable garbage, one of the top 5 worst cards in the entire set.
no more damage on the stack, i'll now pay three and sack that creature... sigh god damn newbs ruining mah game
Nosauz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-23, 22:28   Link #43
FateAnomaly
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by RWBladewing View Post
The linked article explains pretty much everything but in short, yes.




Yeah, that broke quite a few cards or at least changed how they function. At least Mindslaver can still do something. Citadel of Pain literally does nothing now. And Braid of Fire is now just a free mana source with no drawback which was obviously not intended.

Kinda funny how many cards the combat changes ruined though. From the latest set, Carnage Altar could have been a pretty decent card for limited but because of the rules update is completely unplayable garbage, one of the top 5 worst cards in the entire set.
That is so lame... Probably should be glad i quited long ago but not before spending thousands on the game even though i am just a casual player.

All of my decks are theme decks, mainly racial specific decks. I had a elf, goblin, merfolk counterspell and a few play for laugh deck like an artifact and a legendary (even most of the lands are legendary) deck. Needless to say i also had a silver and rebel deck.
FateAnomaly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-23, 22:44   Link #44
gl0w_
Junior Member
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Age: 25
The rules change isn't as bad as it appears on paper. I totally understand what everyone is saying about it but aside from making a few things weaker it didn't change much. Ill give a quick rundown of my opinions for anyone who cares as i've played a lot since the changes.

1. Mogg fanatic, Ravenous baloth, and Seige gang commander are weaker because of the lack of ability to block and sack with them on the stack obviously. But this is just returning to the way that it was during tempest before they made the last big rules change. Kinda disappointing but when you look at it objectively, no more having your cake and eating it too.

2. Lifelink and deathtouch being static ability's rather than triggered is AMAZING as you can now have your life saved by lifelink rather than dying with a trigger on the stack. No more having to regenerate twice for dying to a deathtouch creature(although aside from troll ascetic regeneration is uncommon).

3. The combat trick that brocko mentioned is pretty much one of the only times the lack of stack combat makes a difference, i have yet to play a game when it mattered.

4. Mana burn.... well mana drain is now even more insane(as if it needed to be) but makes sense when you realize that the newest set was a land and mana themed set, so things like lotus cobra are much stronger because of it.

5. Mulligans at the same time. Speeds up tournament play, overall positive change.

6. Term changes and token ownership, don't really care as i still say removed from game and i 'play' things not 'cast' them.

As i said i was pretty concerned with the changes when they first came out but overall i see them to be pretty positive after playing with them so much.

tl;dr - changes are overall pretty positive.
gl0w_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-23, 22:52   Link #45
Nosauz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by gl0w_ View Post

1. Mogg fanatic, Ravenous baloth, and Seige gang commander are weaker because of the lack of ability to block and sack with them on the stack obviously. But this is just returning to the way that it was during tempest before they made the last big rules change. Kinda disappointing but when you look at it objectively, no more having your cake and eating it too.
1 mana for a 1/1 sucks, I'd rather have a raging goblin, but with mogg fanatic he served a bigger purpose in goblins, he made piledriver a super dangerous threat, because you could attack, then sac to ping off blockers to get your gobs in. Siege gang loses a lot of his value, because 3-4 mana for a instant shock that cost so much mana and a card is ridiculous, baloth made green good, it made u want to play those land cyclers due to there synergy with baloth, and it made you want to play with hystadon, or cards like brawn, because with damage going through with trample you could still sac. I just find the rules brutal to players who played competiviely, because basically sacrificing a creature now is always negative card advantage.
Nosauz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-23, 22:53   Link #46
Liddo-kun
Come on everyone
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Nanairogaoka
Send a message via MSN to Liddo-kun
Quote:
Originally Posted by gl0w_ View Post
1. Mogg fanatic, Ravenous baloth, and Seige gang commander are weaker because of the lack of ability to block and sack with them on the stack obviously. But this is just returning to the way that it was during tempest before they made the last big rules change. Kinda disappointing but when you look at it objectively, no more having your cake and eating it too.
Rule change about combat damage is what affected one of my decks badly.
I have a saproling deck built around Nemata Grove Guardian. If I understand the rule change correctly, I can no longer sacrifice saproling tokens that get blocked. Making a massive saproling suicide attack less damaging.

Last edited by Liddo-kun; 2009-11-23 at 23:23.
Liddo-kun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-23, 23:20   Link #47
gl0w_
Junior Member
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Age: 25
Ok yes im glad this was brought up. I put this particular change first because it definitely affects the game the most out of all the changes. But i would argue that this is not necessarily negative.

First off you need to understand that damage didn't always use the stack. Back during tempest and 6th ed, damage was assigned more similarly to how it is now. Now when we look specifically at Mogg fanatic which was printed in tempest, before the rules were changed for the first time, the way that it was being played was not necessarily the way it was meant to be played. Now this isnt to say anything against mogg fanatic, it was an amazing card and definitely one of my favorites but probably more powerful than it was originally intended.

Now we can look at other things that were printed after this initial rules change such as the baloth and the tokens that you mentioned which clearly were intended to be used on the stack. Well... unfortunately they just get weaker. I cant really talk around this one because that's just a fact. Definitely the biggest negative with this change(mostly cause baloth was AMAZING =) ).


Flavor is another thing to take into consideration. Now im not the biggest zealot of magic lore or w/e but i think that a creature throwing a punch, then killing himself with some ability to do more damage and having the punch still land, doesn't really fit with the whole flavor of the game. Although i wont argue this as much as others i've seen because its not as much what i care about.


I feel like i should also say that im not trying to be an ass or tell anyone they are wrong, i probably argued against the changes far harder than anyone here. I was in an angry rage for around 2 weeks when they were announced. But while this is a huge change its not necessarily bad.(also i gotta promote my favorite game =D)
gl0w_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-23, 23:27   Link #48
Nosauz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 25
I'm sorry, but baloth, meant sheer card advantage, you could play green white control, or green red sligh and he would be your turn 4 drop if you were playing blistering firecat, on top of that, baloth was meant to use the stack, hell, ALL morph creatures had this, because once blockers were assigned before damage was calculated well then you would be able to unmorph and net your extra 4 life, or deal an extra 7-5 damage. Morph's entire mechanic is based on the stack. Baloth is just a 4/4, and in magic at least in slower formats like extended, legacy, and some standard blocks a 4/4 with no ability, is like having a 2/2 chump blocker, or a troll aesethic. The point 4/4's don't do much, his ability is what made him good, cabal archon too and thousands of more cards. Plus it destorys synergy between many cards.
Nosauz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-23, 23:33   Link #49
gl0w_
Junior Member
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
I'm sorry, but baloth, meant sheer card advantage, you could play green white control, or green red sligh and he would be your turn 4 drop if you were playing blistering firecat, on top of that, baloth was meant to use the stack, hell, ALL morph creatures had this, because once blockers were assigned before damage was calculated well then you would be able to unmorph and net your extra 4 life, or deal an extra 7-5 damage. Morph's entire mechanic is based on the stack. Baloth is just a 4/4, and in magic at least in slower formats like extended, legacy, and some standard blocks a 4/4 with no ability, is like having a 2/2 chump blocker, or a troll aesethic. The point 4/4's don't do much, his ability is what made him good, cabal archon too and thousands of more cards. Plus it destorys synergy between many cards.
Yes im aware of what Baloth does and as i mentioned, its unfortunate but cards that were printed that intended to use the stack for combat just got nerfed, it sucks but it happened. Also i cant tell if you understand this part, but you can still block and then use the sacrifce ability. You just wont get the damage from combat. The creature will still be blocked and you will still get the sac ability though. You dont have to choose one or the other.
gl0w_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-23, 23:37   Link #50
Nosauz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by gl0w_ View Post
Yes im aware of what Baloth does and as i mentioned, its unfortunate but cards that were printed that intended to use the stack for combat just got nerfed, it sucks but it happened. Also i cant tell if you understand this part, but you can still block and then use the sacrifce ability. You just wont get the damage from combat. The creature will still be blocked and you will still get the sac ability though. You dont have to choose one or the other.
I just find them dumbing down the game making more based on your creature ratio then your actually ability to see synergy between the cards. Massing 50 plus creatures from a 200 card deck when I first started playin was pretty awesome, but ever since I got into constructed play, I've learned, the reason why magic maintains it's popularity is because many older wealtheir players are willing to play because its not kiddy or simplified.
Nosauz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-23, 23:43   Link #51
gl0w_
Junior Member
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
I just find them dumbing down the game making more based on your creature ratio then your actually ability to see synergy between the cards. Massing 50 plus creatures from a 200 card deck when I first started playin was pretty awesome, but ever since I got into constructed play, I've learned, the reason why magic maintains it's popularity is because many older wealtheir players are willing to play because its not kiddy or simplified.
I am totally with you there. I thought(and still think to some extent) that it was kinda lame for them to attempt to dumb down the game. I understand wanting to make it more approachable but i enjoy my complexity and i believe that the tournament players are the ones that spend the most time and money and should also be included. That being said i ultimately dont think the game was simplified all that much. We lost some combat tricks but nothing too staggering. I think that they did a good job of taking away things such as the combat stack and improving on other aspects like lifelink and deathtouch. I honestly care more about those positive changes than i do about the sacrificing one. Also many of the changes to make the game more approachable were the term changes which is fine cause, hey im not forced to use them.
gl0w_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-23, 23:49   Link #52
Nosauz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by gl0w_ View Post
I am totally with you there. I thought(and still think to some extent) that it was kinda lame for them to attempt to dumb down the game. I understand wanting to make it more approachable but i enjoy my complexity and i believe that the tournament players are the ones that spend the most time and money and should also be included. That being said i ultimately dont think the game was simplified all that much. We lost some combat tricks but nothing too staggering. I think that they did a good job of taking away things such as the combat stack and improving on other aspects like lifelink and deathtouch. I honestly care more about those positive changes than i do about the sacrificing one. Also many of the changes to make the game more approachable were the term changes which is fine cause, hey im not forced to use them.
well the last tournament I played was a ptq during lorwyn block, and basically merfolk and fairies lived and breathed on combat tricks, especially with creature centric games, combat tricks are the only way to build card advantage, or its just too much like yugioh.
Nosauz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-23, 23:52   Link #53
gl0w_
Junior Member
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
well the last tournament I played was a ptq during lorwyn block, and basically merfolk and fairies lived and breathed on combat tricks, especially with creature centric games, combat tricks are the only way to build card advantage, or its just too much like yugioh.
can you give me specifics about combat tricks that fairies or merfolk did that are not not viable in this rules set? cause fairies was still the dominant deck up until like a few months ago when the lorwyn and shadowmoor blocks left and merfolk was only seen rarely after lord of atlantis left from timespiral. With the exception of some M10 stuff that made them see some play right before the cycle. Granted i didnt play all that much during timespiral/lorwyn ( which was a mistake cause i think it was probably the best standard in awhile, <3 timespiral) but i cant think of anything off the top of my head.
gl0w_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-23, 23:53   Link #54
Nosauz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 25
I'm pretty sure there so sac abilities with faries that allowed you to make your opponnet discard which was nice way to net damage, I think actually merfolk relied on waterwalking so scratch that.
Nosauz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-23, 23:57   Link #55
gl0w_
Junior Member
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
I'm pretty sure there so sac abilities with faries that allowed you to make your opponnet discard which was nice way to net damage, I think actually merfolk relied on waterwalking so scratch that.
The fairies deck im familiar with doesnt run any cards that sac, but i can believe there were some versions out there that did. But as powerful as Fae was, i can say im glad its gone from its dominating seat. Hopefully will diversify the metagame up a bit once the other sets of Zendikar come out. They printed 2 cards (volcanic fallout and great sable stag) basically specifically to beat it and it still didnt really care lol.
gl0w_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-24, 00:02   Link #56
Nosauz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 25
b/g tarmogoyf/Garuk stompped most aggro based faeries, just be cause tarmogoyf gets soo big even with all their card disruption. I wish control was actually viable, I might even think about coming back, because man the days when I palyed mbc, u/w c, mono blue control, mind's desire, gbr land control, those were the days.
Nosauz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-24, 00:07   Link #57
gl0w_
Junior Member
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Age: 25
I love control and alot due to that blue is by far my favorite color! Last extended PTQ i played in i played Minds Desire storm and DAMN it was so much fun. Last metagame i played the mostly blue centered 5 color control and blue white control with revillark. I am also quite saddened by the lack of control(and blue) in the current meta but im trying out aggro because its something i havent done it in awhile. Jund is my deck of choice and while its pretty good, I can honestly say that im pretty tired of hearing about it and i mostly play it cause i had almost all of the cards already lol. If your interested in a pretty cool take on MBC you might check out the vampires deck that is around. The traditional version of it isnt so much control as it is aggro but i really think that a good discard/control version could be viable. Though not nearly as crazy as the MBC of the old days =P
gl0w_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-24, 00:15   Link #58
Nosauz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 25
oh man... ramping up to a five card sludge after a board wipe pretty much demolishes aggro. actuallly during onslaught b/w control was a very tough match up for u/w, because you would have to keep mana open for the mindsludge, or cabal therapies or cabal intergators or that 4 mana black bomb, good times good times, I also remember playin broodstar affinity against u/w, if you couldn't kill em before they akroma's venganced you, you were done. I think the only real good aggro in the past 10 years would have to be onslaught goblins, because of seige gang commander and arc slogger which really made late game viable, if you resolved arc slogger, you could basically just use it to trade off a wrath of god and stock pile your had with gobs, and sack lands really help u thin your deck, and on top of that from the side board you got sulfurous vortex which pretty much shut down exalted angel, goblins were definitely the best deck to beat, and i guess thats why they won worlds.

Oh yea... SKULL CLAMP.... shutter, that card was disgusting, it made jitte look balanced LOL, it pretty much turned any aggro deck into a deck that could also generate mad mad card advantage. Those where the days.
Nosauz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-24, 00:25   Link #59
gl0w_
Junior Member
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Age: 25
Oh yeah, onslaught was an amazing block. For all the bad wrap that mirrodin gets it really wasnt that bad. We can attribute the crappyness of that metagame to one card, ravager. I think that affinity was insane enough with broodstar without introducing that card. I actually had a friend who played broodstar affinity in a tournament so people would drop their meddling mages naming ravager and it was a giant screw you. I loved watching that happen almost every game. But yeah onslaught goblins and the mono white control with eternal dragon(hell yeah!) and exalted angel were amazing. Astral slide was one of my favorite decks to play in that era though. Doing silly stuff with moving their creatures in and out of the game, oh so much fun. Also yes, not to mention skullclamp... ugh, a dark day for magic R&D indeed lol.
gl0w_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-24, 08:06   Link #60
RWBladewing
Elderly "Love Live!" Fan
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Listening to "Aishiteru Banzai!" on repeat
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by gl0w_ View Post

4. Mana burn.... well mana drain is now even more insane(as if it needed to be) but makes sense when you realize that the newest set was a land and mana themed set, so things like lotus cobra are much stronger because of it.
Sad I missed most of this rules change debate but there's no point in posting further about it as I'd just be repeating what others said at this point. However, I do have a semi-related comment about the quoted point. First, Lotus Cobra is a "may" effect so this change doesn't affect it in any way. In fact, there's only one card in the entire set that can generate unwanted excess mana (Crypt of Agadeem). Which brings me to my main point. Zendikar was supposed to be a land themed set, but it really isn't. If you haven't yet, read this article. This shows all the cool land-based mechanics they'd originally intended to put in the set and how they removed all of them because players are stupid and they'd be too "complicated". And the only one they kept is Landfall which "makes people happy because it rewards them for doing something they'd do anyway instead of having to make difficult choices". Honestly I was more disgusted with this single article than the entire set of rules changes. It's not even a question of whether they're trying to dumb the game down anymore when the lead developer outright tells you they are.

Despite Zendikar draft being one of the most aggressive formats ever with creatures that are impossible to block and terrible at blocking, I have to say I do still enjoy it. My favorite cards are Welkin Tern and Seismic Shudder. The Tern because he's completely insane yet a lot of people underrate him and say blue is bad in draft. If they don't deal with him fast he will deal a ton of damage and if they do, oh well, your opponent just blew his removal on a 2 mana creature. Seismic Shudder is funny in that "pros" consider it either bad or just a useful sideboard card. In a format with TONS of 1 toughness creatures that are considered some of the best cards I fail to see how this is anything less than completely awesome. It can even kill allies like Oran-Rief Survivalist and Kazandu Blademaster with their comes into play (I will never say "enters the battlefield", ever) triggers on the stack. I've never gotten less than a 2 for 1 with this card and I will maindeck it every time I get it.
RWBladewing is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:34.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.