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Old 2009-11-20, 19:29   Link #9261
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by DN24 View Post
All of these luck are meaningless if he wasn't able to control the machine, but he was and he even got top score.He got lucky to have a chance to pilot the Lancelot,after that it was skills because it's quite clear that an ordinary pilot can't control it
Yet luck is the primary factor, regardless of how you rationalize it. If not for that luck, Jeremiah would have gotten the seat, and even though he drives a crap frame he is still shown to be a very good pilot considering.

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Originally Posted by DN24 View Post
We're talking about 10-20 years into the future here, any numbers of events could have taken place. The empire wouldn't stay the same waiting for LL to get ready and it'd more likely getting stronger. There's also the question how much longer would the Ashford willing to shelter him before they try something funny. He could even run into Tamaki and some mobs in a back alley after one of his chess match and get beaten to death for being Britanian
Nevertheless, the events you mention hinged upon the presence of Zero, and they would not be so eager to expand in the absence of that.

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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
But the geass itself was a huge string of luck, and is not his own power. Even the manifistation it took of absolute domination over others, as opposed to the various other forms and abilities, is a huge string of luck (well, plot, but same point really). Attributing the effects of Geass as Lelouch's own strengths is confusing the tool's power with the weilder's. No matter how well Lelouch uses Geass, it isn't his own power. Every time he capitalizes on it, every time, he's reinforcing the gains from luck and abilities that aren't innate to him.
Which is the same thing as the Lancelot is to Suzaku: a lucky break which he exploits for his own gain. Suzaku's success is no less based on luck than Lelouch's. In fact it's moreso, because it's not just that first lucky break which gets him going. Lelouch was given a power and used it. Suzaku was given a power and kept needing handouts.
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Old 2009-11-20, 20:10   Link #9262
DN24
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Yet luck is the primary factor, regardless of how you rationalize it. If not for that luck, Jeremiah would have gotten the seat, and even though he drives a crap frame he is still shown to be a very good pilot considering.
I never deny that he got lucky, but luck alone didn't get him the KM. And Jeremiah is hardly an ordinary pilot, he's probably at Rounds level or just a bit below. Also, nobody know for sure that Jeremiah would accept piloting a new frame with no ejection seat ?

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Nevertheless, the events you mention hinged upon the presence of Zero, and they would not be so eager to expand in the absence of that.
The point is that without geass LL won't be able to do anything soon, and while he make his preparation anything could happen.Because the world isn't all about him,others people also have their plans and interests

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Lelouch was given a power and used it. Suzaku was given a power and kept needing handouts.
The powers given to them was not equal, just a few month after Suzaku got his "power", LL got the same thing and an equally talented pilot.
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Old 2009-11-20, 20:21   Link #9263
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by DN24 View Post
I never deny that he got lucky, but luck alone didn't get him the KM. And Jeremiah is hardly an ordinary pilot, he's probably at Rounds level or just a bit below. Also, nobody know for sure that Jeremiah would accept piloting a new frame with no ejection seat ?
Luck alone did get him the Knightmare, because no amount of skill, which he would never even be given the chance to demonstrate I might add, would negate the simple fact that Numbers cannot pilot Knightmares.

As for Jeremiah, the chance for fame and glory would override safety issues, not that having such a badass machine would be all that dangerous.

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The point is that without geass LL won't be able to do anything soon, and while he make his preparation anything could happen.Because the world isn't all about him,others people also have their plans and interests
Which means nothing. People have their interests at any stage in the game.

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The powers given to them was not equal, just a few month after Suzaku got his "power", LL got the same thing and an equally talented pilot.
Except Lelouch worked for that talented pilot and machine. Suzaku was handed his on a silver platter and much of his success after that is the same thing.
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Old 2009-11-20, 20:21   Link #9264
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The powers given to them was not equal, just a few month after Suzaku got his "power", LL got the same thing and an equally talented pilot.
where as suzaku got a meal ticket in the form of euphie

lelouch litteraly has to build an army on his own, which includes getting kallen to follow him and getting kyoto to accept him enough that they would give him the guren MK II
euphie falls into suzaku's hands
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Old 2009-11-20, 23:04   Link #9265
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Which means nothing. People have their interests at any stage in the game.
Then why believe in LL empty words about a non-existence plan where he has less power and has to face a much stronger enemy while he can't even guarantee his own survival or decide his own fate had he not obtain his power. What he said is just his plan, others people have theirs too and while they have actual power, he has nothing to back up his claim with.

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euphie falls into suzaku's hands
Yes, but she only asked him to work for her after he saved her from that grenade using his given"power"..he got his chance and he took it. He didn't get promoted by playing tourist guide, he got it by risking his life and his Knightmare.
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Old 2009-11-20, 23:24   Link #9266
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Then why believe in LL empty words about a non-existence plan where he has less power and has to face a much stronger enemy while he can't even guarantee his own survival or decide his own fate had he not obtain his power. What he said is just his plan, others people have theirs too and while they have actual power, he has nothing to back up his claim with.
He didn't have anything to back it up with the first time, either, at least not to his observers. Didn't stop them from believing. As long as he can get the results, it doesn't matter if he has Geass.

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Yes, but she only asked him to work for her after he saved her from that grenade using his given"power"..he got his chance and he took it. He didn't get promoted by playing tourist guide, he got it by risking his life and his Knightmare.
He got it by both. She fell into his arms and he showed her around. Establishing that friendship made her run out in the field in the first place. It was luck that brought them together. Suzaku's first actual promotion was a token gift from Cornelia. He relies on charity to get ahead, and only once did he actually make an effort to get promoted.
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Old 2009-11-22, 23:42   Link #9267
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
He didn't have anything to back it up with the first time, either, at least not to his observers. Didn't stop them from believing. As long as he can get the results, it doesn't matter if he has Geass.

He got it by both. She fell into his arms and he showed her around. Establishing that friendship made her run out in the field in the first place. It was luck that brought them together. Suzaku's first actual promotion was a token gift from Cornelia. He relies on charity to get ahead, and only once did he actually make an effort to get promoted.
Suzaku earned that promotion by wiping out all the terrorists in Shinjiku. In fact had he not been an 11 he would've probably received a higher rank, captain or possibly even major.
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Old 2009-11-22, 23:58   Link #9268
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Suzaku earned that promotion by wiping out all the terrorists in Shinjiku. In fact had he not been an 11 he would've probably received a higher rank, captain or possibly even major.
He wasn't rewarded for that. Corenlia didn't even arrive until well after that point. Cornelia specifically notes she gave him the promotion to placate him, not as any sort of reward. I'd give the exact quote, but tracking down the episode is proving difficult.
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Old 2009-11-23, 04:06   Link #9269
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he wasnt promoted for that
he was thrown in jail and falsely accused for that
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Old 2009-11-23, 19:08   Link #9270
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He was framed by Jeremiah because he wanted a scape goat, and besides, the charges were murdering Clovis and his royal guard. He wasn't charged for killing all the terrorists.
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Old 2009-11-23, 19:09   Link #9271
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He was framed by Jeremiah because he wanted a scape goat, and besides, the charges were murdering Clovis and his royal guard. He wasn't charged for killing all the terrorists.
Nevertheless he wasn't rewarded for it, either, and he didn't manage to kill any of them so much as disable them.
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Old 2009-11-23, 19:13   Link #9272
bladeofdarkness
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He was framed by Jeremiah because he wanted a scape goat, and besides, the charges were murdering Clovis and his royal guard. He wasn't charged for killing all the terrorists.
my point was that he was framed despite having just saved the day for britannia
he was not rewarded for it, nor would anyone consider rewarding him for it
he was an eleven, and normally would not even be allowed to CLEAN the lancelot, let alone pilot it
the britannian military considered him an expendable mook, and the lancelot's creator considered him a useful "part" for the machine
no one would have rewarded him for his hard work, for the same reason no one would reward the lancelot for its hard work
its/he's just a tool, as far as britannia is concerned
so much so that even AFTER getting promoted by cornellia, his identity as the lancelot's pilot remains secret
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Old 2009-11-23, 19:24   Link #9273
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Without Geass Lelouch would have spent his days at Ashford playing chess getting a C average and clenching his fist everytime Charles came on the tv going "someday you'll pay" but never actually doing anything about it.

Geass made Lelouch more or less.
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Old 2009-11-23, 19:42   Link #9274
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After he got it though, Lelouch actually did the work of setting up the Black Knights and the associated resistance against Britannia. There's no question that he would have needed to wait without it, but he still took initiative once he did.

Even with the Lancelot, Suzaku was stuck waiting for the proverbial permission to launch.
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Old 2009-11-23, 19:54   Link #9275
morbosfist
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Without Geass Lelouch would have spent his days at Ashford playing chess getting a C average and clenching his fist everytime Charles came on the tv going "someday you'll pay" but never actually doing anything about it.

Geass made Lelouch more or less.
As the Lancelot did for Suzaku. The only difference is, as pointed out by azul, initiative. Lelouch took it right off the bat. Suzaku, by contrast, hardly ever did.
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Old 2009-11-23, 21:18   Link #9276
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
my point was that he was framed despite having just saved the day for britannia
he was not rewarded for it, nor would anyone consider rewarding him for it
he was an eleven, and normally would not even be allowed to CLEAN the lancelot, let alone pilot it
the britannian military considered him an expendable mook, and the lancelot's creator considered him a useful "part" for the machine
no one would have rewarded him for his hard work, for the same reason no one would reward the lancelot for its hard work
its/he's just a tool, as far as britannia is concerned
so much so that even AFTER getting promoted by cornellia, his identity as the lancelot's pilot remains secret
This was explained to me as the Special Core being something akin to the US army's Delta Force in that members couldn't reveal to anyone that they were part of it until after they no longer were. At the very least, I would chock up the concealment of the pilot's identity as much to the value of the Lancelot and its technology as to the fact that Suzaku was an Eleven. Otherwise, Lelouch would have probably taken steps earlier to uncovering his identity, though a direct clarification in series would have been nice.
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Old 2009-11-23, 22:35   Link #9277
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
As the Lancelot did for Suzaku. The only difference is, as pointed out by azul, initiative. Lelouch took it right off the bat. Suzaku, by contrast, hardly ever did.
I think, morbosfist, you're misinterpreting azul. more like suzaku forced himself to work within the confine of the law, which was very limiting yet nonetheless suzaku still subjected himself to it. lelouch otoh worked outside the purview of the law, allowing him more freedom of action.
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Old 2009-11-23, 22:47   Link #9278
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I think, morbosfist, you're misinterpreting azul. more like suzaku forced himself to work within the confine of the law, which was very limiting yet nonetheless suzaku still subjected himself to it. lelouch otoh worked outside the purview of the law, allowing him more freedom of action.
He wasn't misinterpreting, really. Suzaku's decision to work within the rules was part of what held him back.
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Old 2009-11-23, 22:59   Link #9279
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He wasn't misinterpreting, really. Suzaku's decision to work within the rules was part of what held him back.
trying to interpret suzaku's action leads into very interesting word games. i guess we could say that suzaku took the initiative to hold himself back...that sound 'bout right?
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Old 2009-11-23, 23:20   Link #9280
morbosfist
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trying to interpret suzaku's action leads into very interesting word games. i guess we could say that suzaku took the initiative to hold himself back...that sound 'bout right?
Not exactly. He could have taken the initiative even within the confines of the law. See his promotion to KoR. He chose not to. Instead he chose to take every crap assignment they gave him as a roundabout way to die, and even after being KoR makes hardly an effort to get ahead.
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