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View Poll Results: Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Episode 22 Rating
Perfect 10 46 36.51%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 41 32.54%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 25 19.84%
7 out of 10 : Good 7 5.56%
6 out of 10 : Average 6 4.76%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 0.79%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 126. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-11-27, 09:28   Link #61
MeoTwister5
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Gaap was introduced almost exactly the same way.

@Riskbreaker

That's something of the magical interpretation if that's what you believe. Anti-magic would suggest that it was just a dream.
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Old 2009-11-27, 09:34   Link #62
SilverSyko
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So in this game Kinzo is the perpetrator behind the twilights instead of Beatrice or a different witch. I never knew he could use magic from the very beginning. o.o

My opinion on Siesta00 isn't much different from the other 2, probably even worse, considering I could never understand the purpose of an eyepatch fetish. If anything it subtracts from the appearance.

Gaap's introduction seemed too simple and meaningless to me, sure she imprisoned Krauss, Kyrie, Nanjo, Kanon and Shannon but I feel she should do more than just that. Here's hoping she acctually shows some importance later on.

The scene with Maria torturing Rosa was quite gruesome. I don't know if she deserved that much but she did claim some very horrible things. I guess Maria's spontaneous creepy episodes arised from this event. I find it hard to believe it was all a dream too.

I guess the story is about to hit it's climax.~
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Old 2009-11-27, 09:38   Link #63
MeoTwister5
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Well I'm not saying that it IS a dream. My interpretation says it is, which is more anti-magic, but ant-imystery may support it being a real. And no, there's really no such thing as a meaningless character in Umineko no matter how little screentime they get.
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Old 2009-11-27, 10:08   Link #64
Digdri
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Originally Posted by Riskbreaker View Post
Is it feasible to think that one of either Beatrice or Maria may've removed Rosa's memory of the entire event given their abilities, and having Maria being awoken from being asleep at the end of it, be nothing more than a coincidence? Rather than just intimating that it was just one big dream?
Well actually this part was cut a bit in the anime. There was some kind of prelude to this scene in the VN. Read this month ago so let's see if get the details right....

After the events in the dinning room where everybody is killed we get a scene where Rosa wakes up at a cold, dark and lonely place all alone. Her face hurts so she thinks that this is because she was sleeping face to the cold ground (considering her face was smashed be the bunnies magic this actually gives the reader the idea that this may be "happening" after her death). She walks around confused was is going on and what comes to her mind is where Maria is and if she is safe etc. (not remembering what may have happened before). After a while she meets Sakuratou in his human form in this place but doesn't seem to really get what he represents. Regardlessly she asks him where Maria is and he give her the direction but warns her that she shouldn't approach her right now (don't remember if he really gave her a reason for this). Actually he suggests to head the opposite direction if I remember right and there is some stuff that Maria cannot see/notice him right now even if Rosa sees him, so he cannot come with her. Rosa doesn't care about what Sakutarou said because she is so worried about Maria being well etc.
When she arrives where Maria is the part of the anime starts.

Like MeoTwister5 already said:
The following scene with Maria waking up suggests this was all her dream and considering the ruckus she make after Battlers comment about it she also doesn't WANT to be it a dream. So this may already have been on her mind all the time. But the VN is almost as vague about this "coincidences" as the anime so you cannot conclude anything factual about this.

The other interpretation would be that this is once again "only" some kind of personal purgatory-like torture scene (like EP2 tea party etc.) and totally unrelated to the talk of the children afterwards.

What you make out of this is once again your personal interpretation and if you like to support the mystery or the fantasy standpoint.
From the VN storytelling perspective this was more of a conclusion to the background about Maria & Rosas past, Marias relation to magic and problems with her mother than some essential clue to the story on the island. On the other side you never know how important this infos may be in the end.

Last edited by Digdri; 2009-11-27 at 10:10. Reason: Typo
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Old 2009-11-27, 11:38   Link #65
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Old 2009-11-27, 11:43   Link #66
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I was more concerned about Gohda's shrinking head.
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Old 2009-11-27, 12:23   Link #67
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Watched the subs. Oddly enough I'm only now noticing a few oddities/inconsistencies that have nothing to do with the translation, but they didn't jump out at me initially.

I mentioned in my initial review that it was a bit disappointing to see Gaap only open two pitfalls, one for Nanjo/Krauss/Kyrie and one for Shannon/Kanon. But now if I recall correctly, part of what made them ending up together in the exact same dungeon so bizarre was the fact that they all fell through different holes. Even if they all fell beneath the dining hall, they still wound up in the same exact cell, which would be much smaller than the dining hall where they were all standing in different places. This strengthens the idea that, somehow, they didn't actually 'fall through holes' at all, and someone brought them there and locked them up (though there was also the whole issue about Kyrie checking her watch and it having been only about 10 minutes, but the Anime cut that, too, so who knows how important it was in the long run). In the Anime, it would only be a little strange for Shannon/Kanon to be in the same place, but none of this is even acknowledged anyways...we just cut to them trying to escape their strange prison. The whole 'mysterious spooky Kuwadorian dungeon' thing kinda loses a lot this way.

Another thing I noticed is the first twilight...if I recall, in the VN, everyone's description notes them getting their head blown in half (with much description comparing it to smashed melons...), from the side, ala Shannon and Krauss from EP1. Everyone got this treatment, right? Well, there's no problem in the Anime for Natsuhi, Hideyoshi, and Genji, as we can clearly see. But Rudolf, Eva, and especially Rosa don't seem to get that same treatment, and it leads to the inconsistency in 'this is the best method of killing because you can be 100% certain of death while still being able to recognize that person'. Rudolf gets shot through the eye. Eva gets shot in the back of the head, it looks like, though it's hard to tell the way she collapses; maybe half her face was also destroyed, but it seemed like she got hit in the back and not the side. And Rosa...she seems to get hit in the neck or something, and we can clearly see when she collapses that her head is unharmed. Here are the screenshots of the Anime version of the first twilight deaths:

Spoiler for images:

I'm too lazy to boot up the VN right now, though, so if anyone can confirm that this is or isn't different for me, please do.

I still loved this episode, though, and I can't really say how important or unimportant these little changes are to the outcome of the mystery. I'm still giving it a 9, because I thoroughly enjoyed it all the way through.
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Old 2009-11-27, 13:01   Link #68
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I ended up only giving this episode a 7. While I liked many parts of it, some of the changes they made really bothered to me and I think made the storytelling awkward, especially for anime-only viewers. I especially disliked the changes they made to Rosa and Maria's scene. While the content itself was fine and very well acted, I didn't like that they cut out the beginning, or at least made it more clear that it was a meta-world/dream scene.

Stylistically, I felt like Gaap's role in the first twilight wasn't well-designed. I recall in the VN that scene being very thrilling and adrenaline fueled, with everyone rushing to try to escape the room, and being caught by Gaap's holes. And didn't Kumasawa and Gohda actually leap over a hole to escape? In the anime they just flee the room (that scream they made was so hilarious!), and the Siestas are like, "We'll catch them." And then they do nothing.

Still, so very excited for next week!
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Old 2009-11-27, 13:40   Link #69
jeroz
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Originally Posted by Digdri View Post
(.....long quote is long)
So that's what happened during the game.
Due to the clothing and stuff in the anime I thought it happened back in time following directly from when Rosa killed Sakutaro, so initially it just felt weird following Rosa's death scene. I was like "and you are going to be dead on the island...."


also, poor rudolf, only have two memorable scenes: "i'll probably be dead tonight" and "that's something I want to hear from my wife(or something like that)" throughout the whole series.
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Old 2009-11-27, 14:12   Link #70
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Originally Posted by KanonTheFurniture View Post
I mentioned in my initial review that it was a bit disappointing to see Gaap only open two pitfalls, one for Nanjo/Krauss/Kyrie and one for Shannon/Kanon. But now if I recall correctly, part of what made them ending up together in the exact same dungeon so bizarre was the fact that they all fell through different holes. Even if they all fell beneath the dining hall, they still wound up in the same exact cell...
So are you saying if they fell into 2 different cells then you would find it pretty plausible? lol...
the house of the dungeon, as far as i can recall from arc3 is 6-7km away from the mansion, does it really matter whether they fell into one same cell or 2 different ones?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KanonTheFurniture View Post
But Rudolf, Eva, and especially Rosa don't seem to get that same treatment, and it leads to the inconsistency in 'this is the best method of killing because you can be 100% certain of death while still being able to recognize that person'.
so you are saying being drilled a hole through one eye to the back of your head isnt fatal enough? or someone who was shot through throat still has a chance to live without being sent into hospital in the immediate next few minutes? I think you are looking at wrong places while trying to find mistakes there. anyway, just my own thoughts, dont want to be offending. I actually find it great when people do give thoughts about what they see~
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Old 2009-11-27, 14:40   Link #71
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Originally Posted by Chrono Helix View Post
That was confusing.

Spoiler:
My current theory is that the magic characters perceive time in the exact order events are presented to us, the viewers. (This is why Virgilia was able to appear to pre-1986 Maria--as far as she was concerned, that flashback occurred "after" she'd been awakened in the third arc's 1986.)

So, this scene occurred right after Rosa killed Sakutarou, and shortly after 00 killed Rosa.
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Old 2009-11-27, 16:16   Link #72
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Woohoo! Go Goldsmith! Go Maria!

Though I do have to say that while the Maria and Rosa scene was handled quite well the family conference did feel a bit rushed. In the novel Kinzo had a line that went like "I see. I gave them millions of dollars and they gave me grandchildren. Oh, what valuable grandchildren they must be." which I kind of which they'd kept.

... and Gaap does look a lot better, yes. They gave her a really cool voice too.
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Old 2009-11-27, 16:33   Link #73
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Spoiler for Episode 22:


Spoiler for Also, lol:
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Old 2009-11-27, 17:35   Link #74
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Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
1. So NOW they decide to let Shannon's chest jiggle every 10 seconds, when shit hits the fan?
That bugged me a little bit, too.


Ginzo finds your lack of faith disturbing. OH DESIRE~!!!

So, more magical slaughter, we don't hear what the children were told about the incident, and not a mention of magical bunnygirls of doom over the phone. Yay plausible deniability? Or something. Kinda fuzzy regarding who can take what at face value. Whatever. I'll just lay all the blame at Takano(whatever her name is now) and go with the flow.
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Old 2009-11-27, 17:55   Link #75
KanonTheFurniture
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So are you saying if they fell into 2 different cells then you would find it pretty plausible? lol...
the house of the dungeon, as far as i can recall from arc3 is 6-7km away from the mansion, does it really matter whether they fell into one same cell or 2 different ones?
Well not really that I find it plausible; no matter how I see it, this magic scene didn't really happen, and no one actually fell through the floor in the first place. I'm just saying that from the magical perspective the scene tries to present, it comes off looking somewhat odd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinesage View Post
so you are saying being drilled a hole through one eye to the back of your head isnt fatal enough? or someone who was shot through throat still has a chance to live without being sent into hospital in the immediate next few minutes?
Again, it's not that it wouldn't be fatal as it is a departure from what Meta-Ange later tells Meta-Battler about 'the best method of killing'. Look at it from the perspective of the survivors who might happen upon the bodies later. They didn't see Kinzo's supposed massacre, they just see the corpses. Compare that to the rose garden shed in EP1 and the idea that someone in there may not really be dead, but either A) a potentially faked corpse (impossible in this case, everyone's face is clearly theirs) or B) the 'dead' in question are the people we assume them to be, but with some sort of makeup used to fake death (Nanjo only checked one or two corpses for rigor mortis, or if he's an accomplice, even that could be a lie). If someone came to the dining hall later after hearing Kumasawa and Gohda's story, they might see, say, Rosa, with a hole in her neck, and presume 'oh, man, she's dead alright'. Maybe the wound is fake, and Rosa is still alive and only pretending? I don't personally believe this theory, mind you, I'm just saying that changing the depiction of the killings in the Anime MAY be significant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinesage View Post
I think you are looking at wrong places while trying to find mistakes there. anyway, just my own thoughts, dont want to be offending. I actually find it great when people do give thoughts about what they see~
No offense taken. However, if I were trying to find mistakes, I would have noticed them when I watched the raw, and I didn't pick up on these until having watched the raw twice and then watched the sub. I think the episode was done very well and my only real complaint would be the cut of Shannon/Kanon's entire conversation (what was kept just seems strange without the rest) or Kinzo's 'what are your children worth to you?' bit being removed. I rated this episode a 9 and really enjoyed it. I'm not trying to nitpick just for the sake of finding fault with the Anime, I just thought I may have noticed a few oddities that could potentially pose different interpretations compared to the VN version.
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Old 2009-11-27, 18:09   Link #76
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Awesome ep!!! Can't wait for the next one
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Old 2009-11-27, 18:26   Link #77
Marion
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I'll just lay all the blame at Takano(whatever her name is now) and go with the flow.
Takano =/= Lambda

Laying blame on Lambda, who mostly pulls strings behind the scene, is kinda weird So you believe witches are doing it?
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Old 2009-11-27, 18:58   Link #78
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you know what really disturbed me?

the fact that after eva got and fell down when we see her body and her "darling" you can her mouth move

poor eva no instant death for you
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Old 2009-11-27, 20:00   Link #79
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you know what really disturbed me?

the fact that after eva got and fell down when we see her body and her "darling" you can her mouth move

poor eva no instant death for you
I know! I thought that was really creepy and kinda sad at the same time...
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Old 2009-11-27, 20:03   Link #80
MeoTwister5
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Oh she's pretty much dead on impact. That's just a autonomic reflex.
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