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Old 2009-11-29, 20:08   Link #4781
Tiberium Wolf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monir View Post
I know I wouldn't mind too terribly if the Law Enforcement agencies in that area do just that, shoot first, and sort out later.
Then the same thing will happen like that groom in NY that was sprayed with bullets by the police.
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Old 2009-11-29, 21:52   Link #4782
monir
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiberium Wolf View Post
Then the same thing will happen like that groom in NY that was sprayed with bullets by the police.
I suppose I came out sounding irresponsible in the above. I apologize. That said, please read the account of that incident one more time. I'm sure the car that ran into the police vehicle didn't have a plaque of some sort to indicate there was to-be-groom inside. I'm also sure the particular headline made the news quite sensational.

In retrospect, it was an unfortunate event without any question, however, the decision to shoot at a vehicle to neutralize the operator inside which just struck a police vehicle was made in split seconds. The police were looking for five individual who were responsible for a gunfire earlier that struck nearby homes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vexx
This particular incident *may* be organized crime or gang related.... gangs tend to view the police as "just a bigger gang" it seems to me. It may have even been these particular officers for some reason.

I'm not jaded... this does seem like the opening to some hyperbolic crime movie than a real event.
Right now that is the general consensus which is why the event hasn't been assigned with the term "terrorism." As far as I am concerned, it is.
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Old 2009-11-29, 23:28   Link #4783
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inb4 mainstream media uses the term 'Cop Killer' gun
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Old 2009-11-29, 23:53   Link #4784
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monir View Post
Right now that is the general consensus which is why the event hasn't been assigned with the term "terrorism." As far as I am concerned, it is.
I think it is more of murder or homicide than terrorism, one of those policemen must have stepped on the wrong toes that resulted in this.

The usage of firearm could have brought more light than to that plain report. What kind of firearm is it? It is probably semiauto, but what is the caliber? Roughly of what make is it (SIG, H&K, Browning, Beretta, Glock, FN)? Which part of the bodies were the officers shot? From what range?
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Old 2009-11-30, 02:29   Link #4785
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post

Police, as a symbol of "the establishment" or "the Man", may be getting extra suffrage about it. In other countries, they usually put the "fat cats" up against the wall and shoot them... morbidly, I dont think the citizenry is that bright here.
Which countries are those? Around here, it's pretty much also the police who gets it. And the firefighters. And maybe the ambulances.

Of course, our thugs are a lot less lethal than yours. But so are our policemen. So I guess it works out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
The usage of firearm could have brought more light than to that plain report. What kind of firearm is it? It is probably semiauto, but what is the caliber? Roughly of what make is it (SIG, H&K, Browning, Beretta, Glock, FN)? Which part of the bodies were the officers shot? From what range?
What does it matter, aside from morbid curiosity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by monir View Post
In retrospect, it was an unfortunate event without any question, however, the decision to shoot at a vehicle to neutralize the operator inside which just struck a police vehicle was made in split seconds.
Then I'm tempted to say maybe they should have thought it through a bit longer.

Last edited by Anh_Minh; 2009-11-30 at 02:44.
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Old 2009-11-30, 03:48   Link #4786
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Hatoyama says Futemma decision to be made after working group talks

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The governor reiterated that moving the air station outside the southernmost prefecture is ''the best choice'' for people in Okinawa who have hosted the bulk of U.S. military forces stationed in Japan and that he hopes the government will draw up a road map toward the choice.

But Nakaima indicated that if that takes too long, his local government would accept other options to immediately remove the base that the local residents consider dangerous, as that is the purpose for the Futemma relocation plan.
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Old 2009-11-30, 06:42   Link #4787
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
What does it matter, aside from morbid curiosity?
Actually, it does. Profiling and investigation of the wounds would establish whether the culprit is an amateur, or an experienced fellow who knows how to shoot. Also, from the type of gun used, you can work out roughly whether the guy had some serious links with the underworld, or simply used guns which were bought legally. The experts will be able to get clues from seemingly meaningless details.
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Old 2009-11-30, 07:25   Link #4788
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
Actually, it does. Profiling and investigation of the wounds would establish whether the culprit is an amateur, or an experienced fellow who knows how to shoot. Also, from the type of gun used, you can work out roughly whether the guy had some serious links with the underworld, or simply used guns which were bought legally. The experts will be able to get clues from seemingly meaningless details.
I think Anh_Minh means "matter" in the sense of the news reporting the morbid details to us, specifically. Not the actual forensic groundwork, which obviously will have a lot to do with all these details.

And I have to agree with him, in terms of news for public consumption, this is all extraneous information except for those who want to play armchair detective with the case. That and often investigators would also be cautious and hold back from telling the news how much they've really figured out so far lest they jeopardize the investigation.
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Old 2009-11-30, 07:41   Link #4789
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Agreed. But, take note of SH's post. He's only asking the questions. The media hasn't supplied the answers, at all.
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Old 2009-11-30, 08:18   Link #4790
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That said by zhanquan, the most important motive is still whether the media is sensationalising the news (which they have ALWAYS done to gain readership, damned bastards). Overgeneralising can cause moral panic sometimes.

One example is the Virginia Tech massacre, in which the killer bought Walther P22 and Glock 19 pistols. The P22 is accurate due to the minimal recoil cartridge, while the Glock is able to hold high capacity magazines of beyond 15 rounds. Also, it helps the readers to make more informed judgements regarding firearm issues rather than just that "ban all firearms" or "shoot all anti-gun ownership supporters" stance.

With so little information, it could be that the police is clamping down on the press to prevent "judicial damage" to their department.
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Old 2009-11-30, 09:37   Link #4791
Vexx
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Followup on the ambush killings of police officers in Washington State, US. The perp appears to be a somewhat wacko hardcase. His backstory is pretty bizarre. They have his house surrounded and think he's wounded/dead from the exchange of gunfire during the ambush.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...90&ft=1&f=1001
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Old 2009-11-30, 10:39   Link #4792
Tiberium Wolf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Followup on the ambush killings of police officers in Washington State, US. The perp appears to be a somewhat wacko hardcase. His backstory is pretty bizarre. They have his house surrounded and think he's wounded/dead from the exchange of gunfire during the ambush.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...90&ft=1&f=1001
Not confirmed if he is in there yet.
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Old 2009-11-30, 10:59   Link #4793
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Originally Posted by JMvS View Post
Interesting stuff. Hope the Swiss government is prepared for the customary boycott of Swiss products across the middle east.
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Old 2009-11-30, 13:54   Link #4794
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
Agreed. But, take note of SH's post. He's only asking the questions.
And I'm asking why he does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
That said by zhanquan, the most important motive is still whether the media is sensationalising the news (which they have ALWAYS done to gain readership, damned bastards). Overgeneralising can cause moral panic sometimes.
And knowing what brand of gun the guy used helps us to determine that how? For that matter, how is the media "sensationalising" that in the first place? All they said is one guy killed four cops. Not "wave of cop killers on the loose!" or anything like that.

Quote:
One example is the Virginia Tech massacre, in which the killer bought Walther P22 and Glock 19 pistols. The P22 is accurate due to the minimal recoil cartridge, while the Glock is able to hold high capacity magazines of beyond 15 rounds.
Yeah... So?

Quote:
Also, it helps the readers to make more informed judgements regarding firearm issues rather than just that "ban all firearms" or "shoot all anti-gun ownership supporters" stance.
How so? Do you think anyone heard about Virginia Tech and said "Let's ban Walther P22 and Glock 19, but not other firearms - they're alright."?

Quote:
With so little information, it could be that the police is clamping down on the press to prevent "judicial damage" to their department.
Or it could be they don't know. Or it could be they don't think people will care - I certainly don't.
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Old 2009-11-30, 14:59   Link #4795
monir
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Then I'm tempted to say maybe they should have thought it through a bit longer.
Time, place, and circumstances. Interesting you would have such reservation considering you have a military background unless I'm mistaken of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Followup on the ambush killings of police officers in Washington State, US. The perp appears to be a somewhat wacko hardcase. His backstory is pretty bizarre. They have his house surrounded and think he's wounded/dead from the exchange of gunfire during the ambush.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...90&ft=1&f=1001
I seriously hope he isn't dead. I'm also hoping all the Law Enforcement agencies in that area and around the country will be seriously addressing the vulnerability uniformed officers expose themselves to by letting their guard down in confined public spaces such as this Coffee Shop.
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Old 2009-11-30, 17:11   Link #4796
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monir View Post
Time, place, and circumstances. Interesting you would have such reservation considering you have a military background unless I'm mistaken of course.
Completely mistaken. Unless you count teaching maths to 15 years old as war. I've never even held a gun.

However, I have, like most people, a lot of experience in not being shot at, which are the circumstances our brave policemen found themselves in, and I must say, I find their answer rather unconventional.


Quote:
I seriously hope he isn't dead. I'm also hoping all the Law Enforcement agencies in that area and around the country will be seriously addressing the vulnerability uniformed officers expose themselves to by letting their guard down in confined public spaces such as this Coffee Shop.
You're not considering banning policemen from buying donuts, are you?
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Old 2009-11-30, 17:25   Link #4797
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monir View Post
Time, place, and circumstances. Interesting you would have such reservation considering you have a military background unless I'm mistaken of course.
Thats a little too easy. I don't know how it is handled in the USA but there are countries where the law enforcing people basically stay with one leg in prison and the other in their grave when it comes to the use of lethal force as a defence.
Time, place and circumstances if you cannot handle them, this profession isn't for you. There is that risk that comes with this kind of profession. No matter how good you are you might have to make a potentially fatal decission where you need to decide in a case of doubt if you just know yourself or take the risk to assume the potential attacker as relatively harmless until proven otherwise which can be a "dead end" if proven otherwise.
Imo the first choice is just about protecting yourself while the latter is about protecting people.
Now if my english was better I could make my point a little bit more refined and precise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monir View Post
I seriously hope he isn't dead. I'm also hoping all the Law Enforcement agencies in that area and around the country will be seriously addressing the vulnerability uniformed officers expose themselves to by letting their guard down in confined public spaces such as this Coffee Shop.
So you think, they do/did not take it seriously now and before such incidents? The problem is, when you cannot let your guard down you will (on a long term) be obsessed by paranoia.
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Old 2009-11-30, 17:35   Link #4798
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monir View Post
I seriously hope he isn't dead. I'm also hoping all the Law Enforcement agencies in that area and around the country will be seriously addressing the vulnerability uniformed officers expose themselves to by letting their guard down in confined public spaces such as this Coffee Shop.
At some point, we'd have to start asking where the "civilized society" went. Police officers already feel isolated and are often out of touch with the law-abiding citizenry (one reason so many end up with interesting prejudices even if they're the same color as the perp o.O ). Isolating them even further just makes it more likely they're going to have trouble telling who's who in a mess.

For example, most rank and file officers strongly support concealed carry for citizens - they consider them the 'back up of last resort' and a deterrent. Its only the association of "police chiefs" (political appointments) that have opposed such a concept and even then only a slim majority. Most police want the public to be able to defend themselves because they know they can't get there instantly. I have 8 relatives in various levels of law enforcement - I get to hear this discussion frequently.

So ... you have to balance that against the ease of idiots, wackjobs, and loonies getting hold of guns. Balancing accessibility to the law-abiding public versus them is very tough.

Sidenote: knowing the model/make of a weapon used in a crime doesn't really tell you a huge amount other than *maybe* a guess at the skill level of the perp. Example: Mac-10s are generally used by idiots (gangs) when they can get them, it tends to shoot everyone but the target. A Glock, otoh, doesn't tell you a thing - they're preferred by police officers for the special safety function and their reliability. Meh.... so forth and blah.
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Old 2009-11-30, 20:59   Link #4799
LynnieS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
Thats a little too easy. I don't know how it is handled in the USA but there are countries where the law enforcing people basically stay with one leg in prison and the other in their grave when it comes to the use of lethal force as a defence.
I'm not entire sure that I understand this; no offense. Do you mean that in certain countries, the police, if forced to defend themselves with lethal force, would likely end up in prison or dead themselves once the investigation is over?

I can think of a couple of countries that may fit - where the criminals can be just as powerful as the law. If a policeman kills the wrong person - even in self-defense - retaliation is entirely possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
Time, place and circumstances if you cannot handle them, this profession isn't for you. There is that risk that comes with this kind of profession. No matter how good you are you might have to make a potentially fatal decission where you need to decide in a case of doubt if you just know yourself or take the risk to assume the potential attacker as relatively harmless until proven otherwise which can be a "dead end" if proven otherwise.
Imo the first choice is just about protecting yourself while the latter is about protecting people.
Now if my english was better I could make my point a little bit more refined and precise.
Not necessarily that the 1st is just to protect yourself. If you are faced with a guy with the kind of attitude/mindset/fear that would cause him to pull out a weapon and attack a law enforcement officer, the possibility exists that he would also attack someone who does not have the full backing of society. The only things stopping him, IMHO, are:

- His attitude/mood/etc. at the time.
- The relationship between him and his target, and even that is no guarantee these days.
- Any fear of retaliation, but that means society's rules have broken down in this space.

Unfortunately, "hero cop" stories do not tend to stay long on the front page, and people don't agitate for them - not unless it becomes a human interest story; even that does not stay for too long. Whereas a police officer who shoots someone in self-defense (thinking it was needed at the time, but really was not) ends up being... crucified in news and etc.

As for the choice of weapons, eh. This is the U.S. where you can freely buy a gun at a show without a huge problem so long as you have the cash. There are reputable dealers who won't sell to unqualified people, but greed and need will make sure that under-the-table sales will happen. Unless we are talking fairly exotic weapons that don't usually appear in public like a Barrett or a H&K G11 perhaps.

Obama faces steep challenges in new Afghan policy
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WASHINGTON — With eight years of blood and treasure already spent and perhaps his presidency hanging in the balance, President Barack Obama will tell the world Tuesday how he'll escalate the war in Afghanistan — and how he hopes his risky decision will lead finally to a path home for U.S. forces.
Unfortunately and no matter what the policy is, IMHO, Obama is going to get grief about this. Everything from (1) an inability to guarantee success at the end to (2) the prospective cost (human and financial) to (3) the amount of time it took to craft the policy if it is not significantly different. People are also going to want to know when, if this goes into action, the troops will be able to leave.
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Old 2009-12-01, 02:26   Link #4800
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnieS View Post
I'm not entire sure that I understand this; no offense. Do you mean that in certain countries, the police, if forced to defend themselves with lethal force, would likely end up in prison or dead themselves once the investigation is over?
Okay, not necessarily but more likely end up in prison/suspended or dead/wounded. It is a matter of jurisdiction. The question such police officers often face is whether the means of force were appropriate to stop the potential attacker.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnieS View Post
Not necessarily that the 1st is just to protect yourself.
If you only think about yourself in that situation it is basically about protecting yourself at the heart of the matter. One cannot expect fair judgement of the situation in such an incident.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnieS View Post
If you are faced with a guy with the kind of attitude/mindset/fear that would cause him to pull out a weapon and attack a law enforcement officer, the possibility exists that he would also attack someone who does not have the full backing of society. The only things stopping him, IMHO, are:

- His attitude/mood/etc. at the time.
- The relationship between him and his target, and even that is no guarantee these days.
- Any fear of retaliation, but that means society's rules have broken down in this space.
Or in a matter of a misinterpreted situation you end up with a dead attacker that did not even own a gun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnieS View Post
Unfortunately, "hero cop" stories do not tend to stay long on the front page, and people don't agitate for them - not unless it becomes a human interest story; even that does not stay for too long. Whereas a police officer who shoots someone in self-defense (thinking it was needed at the time, but really was not) ends up being... crucified in news and etc.
This is not about heroism, there is a certain professionality that you must have in this profession. The "first shoot then ask" method is not likely to be accepted by the people you are meant to protect.
Admittedly there are situations where you cannot really know, for example being at gun point of a realisticly looking toy-gun. Who would blame the police officer if he mistook it for a real thread? But shooting down a driver just because he rammed a police car... unacceptable - the means of force are way beyond necessity of that situation.
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