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Old 2009-12-03, 00:57   Link #4301
Metaler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vendredi View Post
Finally, one more thought on the red, regarding Ange and Beatrice's confrontation. I think this provides the most evidence that there is something more to the red.
Beatrice states that:
"This is my Golden Land. A world where any magic other than my own definitely cannot exist."
"With my magic, Sakutarou could not be revived. Your stuffed animal is a special stuffed animal. The only one in the world, made by Rosa for her daughter's birthday."
Note very carefully that "with my" is not red. There's deeper implications to this phrase, seeing as Ange was able to revive Sakutarou. An inconsistency in how the red is used? Or perhaps a testament to Ange's strength? After all, if the red is the absolute truth, then Ange's magic could not work in Beato's Golden Land, and the magic that revived Sakutarou was Beatrice's.
That's pretty much the perfect example for my theory.
Beato states that magic could not revive Sakutarou. Yet, he was revived. That's a huge contradiction. It's possible that Beato believed that Sakutarou couldn't be revived.
And this "magic" could be anything. If we believe that Sakutarou was revived because Ange saw the toy at that store before she leaves, then this event can have many names, such as "miracle" or "magic".
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Old 2009-12-03, 01:51   Link #4302
vendredi
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It's certainly an oddity - the only loophole I can think is how in the TIP about Mariage Sorciere there is a definite distinction between Beato's magic and Maria's magic, and the magic they create together by creating the alliance. Perhaps "my own magic" could include the magic of Mariage Sorciere, and Ange is in a sense re-entering this compact.

Or, as Sakutarou himself points out to Ange when she first summons him herself, the only reason he "died" to Maria was because Maria stopped believing in him. Ange comes in, makes Maria realize that Sakutarou is still alive and revivable, and through Maria's magic - the magic of Mariage Sorciere - which is also Beato's magic, by extension - she revives Sakutarou.

Secondly, note that Beato's statement about the impossibility of reviving Sakutarou is quite muddled - the "With my" is not in red, but the rest is. Without that, we get the statement that:

magic, Sakutarou could not be revived.

Note this statement is in the PAST TENSE. Sakutarou could not be revived before, but this red truth does not deny the revival of Sakutarou in the NOW. The remaining statements, that Sakutarou is unique and that Rosa made him, do not by themselves prevent his resurrection.

It's slicing it quite thin though. And that's only if you want to defend the consistency of the fantasy elements in the first place... perhaps this isn't even important for the anti-fantasy position.

Since the red truth seems to lend itself to a certain imprecision regarding names, this scenario is possible. Still though, it seems like the red truth is always dangerously sitting on the semantic cliff, and at any moment we might fall into a war over words and definitions.
The other loophole in the red truth that we are consistently witness to is a lack of specification regarding past, present, and future - this is probably the important key in handling these statements.
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Old 2009-12-03, 02:00   Link #4303
Isekaijin
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Actually it might have another interpretation.

The magic Beato is talking about is the Endless magic she wields, isn't it? And the title of Endless witch has been passed down from Beato to EVA and then to Ange. She is denying the existence of magic other than her own, in other words, the Endless magic, which Ange, being the succesor of Beatrice can use, thus not going against the red text.

She also say that with her magic Sakutarou couldn't be revived. Now she is talking about her own magic, not the Endless magic Ange wields.

But then again we're talking about magic here...
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Old 2009-12-03, 04:04   Link #4304
k//eternal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaler View Post
That's pretty much the perfect example for my theory.
Beato states that magic could not revive Sakutarou. Yet, he was revived. That's a huge contradiction. It's possible that Beato believed that Sakutarou couldn't be revived.
And this "magic" could be anything. If we believe that Sakutarou was revived because Ange saw the toy at that store before she leaves, then this event can have many names, such as "miracle" or "magic".
I actually agree with that, but I don't think it's the whole picture. Magic in this game operates heavily on belief and interpretation, so I think when magic is referred to in red, it really means the process that appears as magic in the game.

That is, the red text is guaranteed fact, but some words such as "magic" are actually "code words" for something else.
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Old 2009-12-03, 04:40   Link #4305
ijriims
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Magic was about belief, but red texts were about truth.

Magic could not succeed if people did not believe in it.

Beatrice and Maria did not believe that Sakutarou was revived by Rosa, so they could not use magic to revive Sakutarou.

However, because Ange saw Sakutarou in captain's cabin, she believed that Rosa had remade Sakutarou, so this magic (the power of belief) was able to revive Sakutarou by Ange, but not by Maria nor Beatrice (thus the red texts).

Ange resurrected Sakutarou not through magic per se, but what she used was the essence of Beato's magic, so while Beato could not even though it was stated that only Beato's magic existed in Golden land and Beato could say magic could not resurrect Sakutarou. THis did not contradict any of the red texts.
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Old 2009-12-03, 05:26   Link #4306
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaler View Post
That's pretty much the perfect example for my theory.
Beato states that magic could not revive Sakutarou. Yet, he was revived. That's a huge contradiction. It's possible that Beato believed that Sakutarou couldn't be revived.
And this "magic" could be anything. If we believe that Sakutarou was revived because Ange saw the toy at that store before she leaves, then this event can have many names, such as "miracle" or "magic".
I don't think Ange used "magic". She calls it "real magic" that's probably a way to say that what she does is not a trick nor an illusion but a concrete thing. Probably in this case Ange's real magic simply means that she has found a real Sakutaro in fabric and cotton.

And the "real magic" she "summoned" when she killed Kasumi and her thugs was probably Juuza.
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Old 2009-12-03, 05:46   Link #4307
vendredi
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Useful insights so far - it seems there are many ways to get around the "my own magic" clause.

To sum up so far it seems the red truth has the following characteristics.

Imprecision in naming or terminology - important for statements that establish death, closed rooms, etc. I'm hesitant on the idea of "code words", however.

Not necessarily time sensitive - unless otherwise mentioned we can postulate theories as to "when" the red truth happens.

Apply only to the game they're mentioned unless otherwise noted - It's notable that Beatrice goes out of her way to establish some facts that cross over between the games, which implies that the red truths do not by default refer to all of them.

Anything else?
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Old 2009-12-03, 13:47   Link #4308
Renall
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Only true for statements of past or present fact - Your opinions can be stated in red ("You can't trust words that aren't red!"), your statements of intent can be in red ("I'll make you my favorite pet."), you can even cackle in red, but they're irrelevant. They only apply if they describe something that is happening or has happened. You can say Kanon died in this room but not Kanon will die in this room (well, you can say it, but it doesn't force it to come true).
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Old 2009-12-03, 16:00   Link #4309
Jan-Poo
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Wait Renal, Beatrice said "Yet I am here, now, and will kill you".

There is also Battler who supposedly said "I will kill you", but that happened on an image and we can't be sure it actually counts as a red truth.
Nonetheless Battler used a red truth referring to the future in the "white day" extra TIP. He said that he would never give chocolate to Beatrice on white day, and it is hinted that since he said that, there's not way that it will ever happen.
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Old 2009-12-03, 16:34   Link #4310
ijriims
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I would add that the red statements were heavily contextalized , meaning that what was being referred to should base on the concurrent dialogue.

Also, the red statements from Beatrice and her league (meaning Ronove, the stakes, Virgilia, etc) were reliable and had no other meaning beyond what contexts suggested. On the other hand, Eva-Beatrice's, Bern's, Erika's and Lambda's red statements were less reliable as they might employ wordplay and trick to fool and mislead Battler.
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Old 2009-12-03, 18:46   Link #4311
Jan-Poo
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well I could add that

It is not necessary to state implicit assumptions For example the sentence the only way to open and close the door to the chapel is with the chapel key goes with the assumption "from the outside". The sentence in itself would be definitely false because there is a manual lock inside, however Beatrice can say it because it is implicit that this only works from outside.
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Old 2009-12-03, 19:58   Link #4312
Metaler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I don't think Ange used "magic". She calls it "real magic" that's probably a way to say that what she does is not a trick nor an illusion but a concrete thing. Probably in this case Ange's real magic simply means that she has found a real Sakutaro in fabric and cotton.

And the "real magic" she "summoned" when she killed Kasumi and her thugs was probably Juuza.
Umm... that's what I was trying to say, but I guess I couldn't express myself very well. ^^'
What I meant by "magic" or "miracle" is that any event which is extremely unlikely to happen can be considered "magic" or a "miracle".

Quote:
Originally Posted by k//eternal View Post
I actually agree with that, but I don't think it's the whole picture. Magic in this game operates heavily on belief and interpretation, so I think when magic is referred to in red, it really means the process that appears as magic in the game.

That is, the red text is guaranteed fact, but some words such as "magic" are actually "code words" for something else.
Exactly. This means that if the concept of magic in Umineko is influenced by belief, then so is the red truth. After all, it's a fantasy element introduced by Beato, a witch. So in order to trust the red, you would also have to accept at least part of the fantasy elements in the story. In other words, you would have to believe in magic in order to believe the red.

Basically, it would be the same as if a random person came up to you and said "your parents are dead". Would you believe in that person? If you did, would you attempt to guarantee this fact by contacting your parents, be it by phone, mail, or any other method? More importantly, why would believe that person?
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Old 2009-12-03, 20:39   Link #4313
vendredi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaler
Exactly. This means that if the concept of magic in Umineko is influenced by belief, then so is the red truth. After all, it's a fantasy element introduced by Beato, a witch. So in order to trust the red, you would also have to accept at least part of the fantasy elements in the story. In other words, you would have to believe in magic in order to believe the red.
Yea, this is the "final option" I was referring to previously:

Quote:
Originally Posted by vendredi
This has likely been mentioned already, but the anti-fantasy position sort of has a suicidal trump - since the idea this red, absolute truth is something that can only exist with the magic of witches and demons.

In essence if we are out to completely deny everything then we *could* discard the red truth as ultimately false - since it is derived from a source that doesn't exist. Consider it the "final option" for the die-hard anti-fantasist.

Of course, this then leaves us absolutely nothing - we cannot ever get to the bottom of the mystery; the alternative is to trust to Beato's sportsmanship regarding the rules. Well, except perhaps the TIPS. It's notable that they still do not update until Battler has seen the death with his own eyes.
That about sums up our problem - if we completely disregard the red, then the Rokkenjima Mystery is forever a mystery; barring more revelations by 1998 ANGE - and even then, perhaps she is not a reliable narrator either. This is nevertheless a way to worm our way out of the red cage, but it's a pyrrhic victory, as it collapses back into the Devil's Proof scenario the rule was introduced to avoid.

This all really comes down to whether or not you trust Beato's sense of sportsmanship - that even without the authority of a witch or demon backing it, the statements she makes in red are the unvarnished truth.
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Old 2009-12-03, 20:53   Link #4314
Hareoic
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Bringing up something I noticed a long time ago and forming a theory around it:

Spoiler for Subway Theory:
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In the event that the Delicious Companion Burger does speak, The Meta World urges you to disregard it's advice.
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Old 2009-12-03, 21:03   Link #4315
Isekaijin
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How would I say it?

"I wouldn't put it past Grandfather."

Reminds me of one time I thought there might be a Zerg hive under Kinzo's basement and the dead humans became infested. The building in general might have a secret or two.

In my eyes there are five mysteries.

"Where is the damn gold?"
"Who is killing everyone?"
"Who is "Beatrice"?"
"Why Maria and the furniture seem to know what is happening?"
"What does Beato want Battler to remember?"

And I think resolving one might make everything clear, at least one of them must have crucial clues... Something that was left unsaid...
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Old 2009-12-03, 21:17   Link #4316
vendredi
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Namewise, it might just be a photograph of a real subway that was repurposed into a secret passage for the game... however...

...as lulzy as the subway theory sounds, it actually solves another problem - how Kyrie and the other survivors from the dinner table massacre got to Kuwadorian in under 10 minutes.

Recall that Kyrie and company realize that only 10 minutes have passed so far inbetween falling into the pit in the dining hall and awakening in the jail cell.

If we assume there is a subway or similar form of transportation system installed in the tunnel that links Kuwadorian and the other main mansion, then the pitfall = knockout drug theory doesn't seem so far fetched - Kinzo/kidnappers knock out the survivors, drag them onto the subway, and within a short period they're inside Kuwadorian.

I'm a little dubious as to having a subway connecting Rokkenjima and the mainland, but yeah:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isekaijin
"I wouldn't put it past Grandfather."
I think though the idea of a small subway/tramway/rail line linking Kuwadorian and the main mansion could be entirely probable nevertheless. This also might explain how easy it would be for Kinzo to slip away during one of his "walks" to spend time with Beatrice without taking an undue amount of time.
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Old 2009-12-04, 01:06   Link #4317
ijriims
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Originally Posted by vendredi View Post
I think though the idea of a small subway/tramway/rail line linking Kuwadorian and the main mansion could be entirely probable nevertheless. This also might explain how easy it would be for Kinzo to slip away during one of his "walks" to spend time with Beatrice without taking an undue amount of time.
It could explain the mystery of trapping inside the dungeon. Though I am in the position that they have never actually been to the tunnel system but rather locked inside the mansion. Actually, i thought the whole group just agreed to fake they were imprisioned by Kinzo. (I believed Kyrie and Krauss just persuaded Shannon, Kanon and Nanjo to pretend with them, accompanied with some threats to kill them if they do not comply.)

On the other hand, there DID exist a vast tunnel system beneath the Rokkenjima.

--------------------------------

"Where is the damn gold?"
"Who is killing everyone?"
"Who is "Beatrice"?"
"Why Maria and the furniture seem to know what is happening?"
"What does Beato want Battler to remember?"

My position is:

1. The gold was hidden in the tunnel maze beneath Rokkenjima, one have to solve the epitaph to find the entry to the tunnel (the river) and identify which branch to take (the key and the gouging), or they would get lost(or got injured by the traps?)

2. In the end, Beatrice setuped a disaster to kill everyone inside the mansion. If they did not solve the epitaph in time (00:00 Oct 6), they were all going to die. For all the intermediate murders, most were done by Genji in EP1 & 2, some in EP4, some by Beatrice in EP1, 3 and 4, all in EP5, some by Eva in EP3, some by Rosa in EP2, and possibly some by Krauss in EP4.

3. I believe Kyrie was the Real Beatrice.

4. Some part of the reasons was that these were just fantasy scene and dialogues. Another reason was that Beatrice did recruit Shannon to work for her (and sometimes tried to recruit Kanon as well). Further, Beatrice played tricks on these servants for a long time (see the Extra TIPS), so they were familiar with this fantasy Beatrice, but not real Beatrice.

5.Read this post

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-12-04 at 03:17.
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Old 2009-12-05, 01:09   Link #4318
Sute443
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaler View Post
That's pretty much the perfect example for my theory.
Beato states that magic could not revive Sakutarou. Yet, he was revived. That's a huge contradiction. It's possible that Beato believed that Sakutarou couldn't be revived.
There's only a contradiction if you believe that Sakutaro really died in the first place. If he wasn't actually killed, then there is no contradiction at all; it is only natural that someone still alive can't be resurrected. As vendredi pointed out,

Quote:
Originally Posted by vendredi View Post
Or, as Sakutarou himself points out to Ange when she first summons him herself, the only reason he "died" to Maria was because Maria stopped believing in him.
Remember, Sakutarou's death was not confirmed in red. His body was destroyed, but there's no reason Maria couldn't have still imagined that she was talking to him.

As for a subway system carrying people onto the island to commit the murders, that really violates the spirit of the island being closed off and nothing from outside being able to interfere. That doesn't make it impossible, but it would be a really lame and unsatisfactory explanation. It would be more satisfying for it to turn out that it was all being done with magic the whole time.
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Old 2009-12-05, 15:06   Link #4319
vendredi
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Good catch on Sakutaro's death, there's another logical loophole there.

Also I agree that a subway system connecting the island and the mainland certainly does feel like a cop-out. A subway/tram system that only connects locations on the island though certainly would keep the island in a "closed room" scenario though - it's just faster to get around and explains some time discrepancies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by "ijriims
If Maria had someone like Battler to care for her as a brother, she would not suffer and hate her mom so much now. If Maria was not suffering this much, she would not hate Rosa so much and deem the Ushiromiya family as fractured so deeply, then she would not say to Maria to take her to the Golden Land and held a trial over Ushiromiya family. She loved the Ushiromiya family but at the same time loathe at it. She knew the current plan could not be stopped now. She promised Maria to bring her to the Golden Land, and to accomplish this, she had to execute the plan she prepared long ago. Unlike Battler, Beatrice kept her promises, even though she knew she could stop right now.
This is possibly the most complete motive behind Beatrice I've seen so far, and ties together all the disparate strands - Maria's connection to Beatrice, Battler's sin, and the motives behind destroying the Ushiromiya family - in a fairly complete way.

From a pro-fantasy standpoint it's pretty satisfactory as an explanation, although I don't think it gels completely as an anti-fantasy position - that is, if you believe that the culprit was a human in the guise of "Beatrice". I suppose in a sense you could say that meta-Beatrice is taking responsibility for the actions of the "true culprit" in order to fulfill her promise to Maria?

The whole meta-world/game-board divide is pretty headspinning.
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Old 2009-12-05, 21:45   Link #4320
zeroexia
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for me, i believe that Ryukishi07 probably will give us an epic revelation that will make everybody go.....WHAT?!!!!

my take is that all naku koro ni have the Hinamizawa virus at fault. Imagine if all the characters in the end turn out to have Hinamizawa virus.
Symptoms of Hinamizawa virus could be to blame for everything. People seeing things, killing each other, etc. Specifically Lv. 4 .However there could always be Oyashiro-sama Hanyuu types in the story just evil. That meaning true supernatural beings.
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