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Old 2009-12-02, 17:41   Link #4821
ChainLegacy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Yes, then instead of the population being dicks, their representatives can be dicks. And line their pockets. That's so much better.
I see both as bad. I don't support one over the other at all, and completely agree with you (this is the current state of the USA). My point was, it is the only way to combat 'tyranny of the majority' under a democratic system. And what I meant by lesser of two evils is, I don't see any form of democracy as a 'good' system for governance, but they're probably the best alternative we have (as opposed to all those other ones like monarchies).
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Old 2009-12-02, 17:43   Link #4822
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Narona View Post
That's not what Anh means I think. Your example is extreme. But as you can see, it happened in France that in a train station, policemen were chasing a young man who did something bad. Would you believe me if I say that some random people tried to block the policemen?

There is a growing feeling among people about "not trusting the policemen" here in France for example. Sure some do mistakes and given their job, when they do, it can take enormous proportion, but they are just humans, and not all of them are corrupted. And sometimes, people throw rocks at them for no reason that being policemen, or take the defense of thugs for no good reason.
That wouldn't give policemen the right to shoot the man to kill him. Capture him, yes. What I'm saying that if the person the cop shoots is innocent and his innocense can be proven, then the cop doesn't have a right to shoot to kill. If it's for self defense, then it can be allowed given the circumstances.

As for the people who tried blocking the policemen, it's their fault for not trusting the police and letting them do their job. But even then, that doesn't give them the right to shoot them because they're being an obstruction to justice. Such a thing can warrant an interrogation, but nothing more. What I'm saying is that because cops are allowed to carry guns doesn't mean they can use them as they wish.
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Old 2009-12-02, 17:51   Link #4823
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo View Post
Right, so the policeman who shot a 15 year old kid in Greece last year just because he was smoking was allowed?

Being a cop doesn't mean the cop has a license to kill. They also have to respect the laws and set an example for the people who're being made to follow them. If cops don't do it, then who will?

EDIT: you don't have to tell me that there's a chance the newspapers changed the story to maybe hide the fact that the kid was assaulting the cop. That's definitely not true because police brutality is common in Greece. All my friends from there can back me up on this too.
Yeah, and that sort of things - innocents being killed - happens how often? And exactly what impunity do policemen enjoy?

For that matter, who can say they've never overreacted? Or never made a mistake? I'm not saying it's not tragic, and I'm not saying policemen shouldn't be circumspect in the use of violence. But for the most part, in civilized countries - which Greece no doubt is, your anecdotal evidence notwithstanding - policemen aren't rabid killers shooting people for the fun of it.
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Old 2009-12-02, 17:53   Link #4824
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Yeah, and that sort of things - innocents being killed - happens how often? And exactly what impunity do policemen enjoy?

For that matter, who can say they've never overreacted? Or never made a mistake? I'm not saying it's not tragic, and I'm not saying policemen shouldn't be circumspect in the use of violence. But for the most part, in civilized countries - which Greece no doubt is, your anecdotal evidence notwithstanding - policemen aren't rabid killers shooting people for the fun of it.
I don't doubt it. All I'm saying is that policemen aren't placed above the law simply because they're allowed to carry weapons and enforce the law on others. They have to set an example for people. If they kill an innocent person, they should undergo the same kind of punishment anyone else. That is all.
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Old 2009-12-02, 18:13   Link #4825
Kamui4356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo View Post
See, that's why cops think they can get away with killing an innocent person. The worst that can happen to them is they lose their job and go to jail for a certain amount of time. I don't agree with this because cops tend to think that because of their position as law enforcers, they are above the law. That can change from country to country, but nonetheless, it doesn't give them a license to kill. Would the family of the person who died be happy if the killer was set free after doing time? Would you? I know I wouldn't. The killer needs to know what it's like to be on the receiving end of the bullet, in which case, a life sentence doesn't cut it either. That being said, the death sentence is, imho, appropriate.
Prisons aren't a nice place for anyone, let alone former cops. Besides, no matter how you look at it, if the cop pulls someone over, then shoots the person when they're reaching for their wallet, it's manslaughter, or at most second degree murder. There's no premeditation on the part of the cop, which is generally required for a first degree murder charge. There is a reason manslaughter usually carries a lesser sentence than murder after all. We're still talking between 5 and 20 years in prison in the US, depending on various factors. It isn't simply letting them off with a slap on the wrist.

Of course I oppose the death penalty in all cases except for mass murderers or serial killers who would likely kill again if they were to somehow get out of jail.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I think he means that if a cop is going to shoot someone, it'll be less trouble if he makes sure the shootee isn't around to complain afterward.
Ah yeah I see it now. I didn't have a clue what he was talking about there.
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Old 2009-12-02, 18:18   Link #4826
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
Prisons aren't a nice place for anyone, let alone former cops. Besides, no matter how you look at it, if the cop pulls someone over, then shoots the person when they're reaching for their wallet, it's manslaughter, or at most second degree murder. There's no premeditation on the part of the cop, which is generally required for a first degree murder charge. There is a reason manslaughter usually carries a lesser sentence than murder after all. We're still talking between 5 and 20 years in prison in the US, depending on various factors. It isn't simply letting them off with a slap on the wrist.

Of course I oppose the death penalty in all cases except for mass murderers or serial killers who would likely kill again if they were to somehow get out of jail.
A lot of times, that's not true. At least in Italy, people who're in jail have a TV in their cell, they don't pay for their food. Although the conditions are rough, it's not like the conditions aren't tolerable. You're just living in a jail cell and you get to socialize with your inmates. For killing someone, regardless of how long you're stuck in there, doing time is still too light a punishment, especially 5 years. Manslaughter isn't so bad? Tell that to the family of the maslaughter victim. At the very least, a life prison sentence is warrented, and I'd even go as far as saying they should be spent in isolation. I doubt anyone would want the kind of person who can just kill someone randomly out on the streets just because he can.
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Old 2009-12-02, 18:24   Link #4827
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Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo View Post
A lot of times, that's not true. At least in Italy, people who're in jail have a TV in their cell, they don't pay for their food. Although the conditions are rough, it's not like the conditions aren't tolerable. You're just living in a jail cell and you get to socialize with your inmates. For killing someone, regardless of how long you're stuck in there, doing time is still too light a punishment, especially 5 years.
That reminds me something

Here we don't have death penalty, nor real perpetuity sentence. And many prisons are not that harsh (nowhere near the ones in the states). The state even spends money in psychiatry for the murderers, rapists etc.

And you can see joke sentence like getting 9-10 years for having raped a minor girl under 15yo, and get out after 6 years only. (and in the case i am talking about, the rapist did it again just after getting out of prison, but this time he killed the girl too)
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Old 2009-12-02, 18:42   Link #4828
Kamui4356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo View Post
A lot of times, that's not true. At least in Italy, people who're in jail have a TV in their cell, they don't pay for their food. Although the conditions are rough, it's not like the conditions aren't tolerable. You're just living in a jail cell and you get to socialize with your inmates. For killing someone, regardless of how long you're stuck in there, doing time is still too light a punishment, especially 5 years. Manslaughter isn't so bad? Tell that to the family of the maslaughter victim. At the very least, a life prison sentence is warrented, and I'd even go as far as saying they should be spent in isolation. I doubt anyone would want the kind of person who can just kill someone randomly out on the streets just because he can.
Yeah, see jails in the US? They're a bit more gang infested and rapey than that. Plus once again, there's a reason manslaughter carries a lesser sentence. It's not an arbitrary thing you know. You can say things like "but the victim's family!" though it's just an appeal to emotion fallacy. The simple fact is the mindset of the shooter does and should be considered in sentencing. Why should someone who killed someone because of a bad judgement call get the same sentence as someone who planned to kill someone, then carried it out?
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Old 2009-12-02, 19:53   Link #4829
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Narona View Post
And you can see joke sentence like getting 9-10 years for having raped a minor girl under 15yo, and get out after 6 years only. (and in the case i am talking about, the rapist did it again just after getting out of prison, but this time he killed the girl too)
Reminds me when we voted to make the provisions on pedophilia harsher, and when we voted for violent offenders to be kept in custody for life (each time with a popular initiative).

Unsurprisingly, each were depicted as huge blows from the emotional population toward the reasonable government, and incompatible with "Human Rights".
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Old 2009-12-02, 21:15   Link #4830
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Originally Posted by JMvS View Post
Reminds me when we voted to make the provisions on pedophilia harsher, and when we voted for violent offenders to be kept in custody for life (each time with a popular initiative).

Unsurprisingly, each were depicted as huge blows from the emotional population toward the reasonable government, and incompatible with "Human Rights".
someone form Europe explain to me how it is incompatible with Human Rights to lock up someone for life who has history of violent behavior (including murder and rape)?

don't the avg person have a right to be safe form someone like that?
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Old 2009-12-03, 00:16   Link #4831
Cyrus17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
You see, I believe in democracy.
I don't believe in democracy. Democracy = worst kind of oppression cause people don't even know they are oppressed.

Yes, people are allowed to vote, but how, and, what is more important, about what they vote is determined by those who control the media and thus control the minds of the people. Notice, that people have zero control over media. Moreover, the structure of true control over the media is hidden from public.
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Old 2009-12-03, 01:24   Link #4832
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
someone form Europe explain to me how it is incompatible with Human Rights to lock up someone for life who has history of violent behavior (including murder and rape)?

don't the avg person have a right to be safe form someone like that?
No you see in Europe we defend more the criminal than the victim. It's the European touch ! .....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Narona


And you can see joke sentence like getting 9-10 years for having raped a minor girl under 15yo, and get out after 6 years only. (and in the case i am talking about, the rapist did it again just after getting out of prison, but this time he killed the girl too)
Just to add, that's the normal thing in France. I mean, here, it's not normal to have rapist and murderer to spend the whole time in jail. No no, they will go out before. So when they say you have 10years of jails, it means in reality : 10/2.

Your justice is too lax and because of that you have people who don't care anymore about sentence.

And you need to see some prison, they even better than some french apartment. The truth is that there are some criminal who prefer to go to jail than being at home

And in France, when you want to be more strict, you're a monster .....
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Old 2009-12-03, 07:23   Link #4833
Slice of Life
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
You see, I believe in democracy.
I think you misunderstand what democracy actually means. Democracy is a system to ensure good governance through a system of checks and balances to limit any party's power. Compromises, individual rights, and independent judges are elements as important as the principle of majority vote.

You seem to think the systems would work better by somehow going to the basics. No. Actual democracy is to your idea of democracy like driving a car is to blowing up the tank. You might find the latter more appealing because it embodies the fundamental process that drives a car forward in all its pureness; but it won't get you to the next city, only to hell.

Or maybe you're already intellectually satisfied by the beauty of the pure solution and don't care for its practicality. But conflicts, hierarchies and power concentrations in need of moderation won't get away by the political system turning a blind eye on them. By sweeping them under the carpet you only allow them to rot.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And the corollary of that is that I hold everyone responsible for his or her vote.
You're in no position to hold anyone responsible for his or her vote, especially not in the system your desire. Except in the meaning of some moral judgment. If that already satisfies you, you've never really been in the position of the powerless at the mercy of the powerful.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I just believe that if someone's going to exert tyranny, I'd rather it'd be the majority than some select minority decided on shady criteria, which is pretty much the only alternative, from what I can tell.
Your dismissal of representative democracy is trendy, especially among anti-democrats of any flavor. You have no idea how a real tyranny looks like and the system you enjoy is meant to prevent you from ever finding out.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
someone form Europe explain to me how it is incompatible with Human Rights to lock up someone for life who has history of violent behavior (including murder and rape)?

don't the avg person have a right to be safe form someone like that?
Nobody should ever lose the chance to become free again through their own effort. Which implies that they should have the right to have their personality being reevaluated at some point. If they pass or fail is a different matter.

The crime rate in most European countries is low and falling by the way. Cries for tougher laws are more often than not nothing more than attempts to satisfy their own primitive emotion of rrrrraaage under the thin veil of the concerned citizen.
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Old 2009-12-03, 08:01   Link #4834
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It should also be said that there is no such thing as an utterly pure and perfectly functioning sociopolitical system of governance as long as the people, both in the government and the populace, don't exactly practice what they preach. It all sounds good on paper but practice is so much of so different beast.

Quote:
Or maybe you're already intellectually satisfied by the beauty of the pure solution and don't care for its practicality. But conflicts, hierarchies and power concentrations in need of moderation won't get away by the political system turning a blind eye on them. By sweeping them under the carpet you only allow them to rot.
Sounds strangely like the French reign of terror post revolution. Perhaps this history is bound to repeat itself?
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Old 2009-12-03, 08:23   Link #4835
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Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Sounds strangely like the French reign of terror post revolution. Perhaps this history is bound to repeat itself?
History will always repeat itself because no one cares about it, foolishly thinking that history is in the past and it has nothing to do with them. We're living in a second Cold War right now, but instead of nukes, we have bankers and politicians corrupting the social order while hiding behind a mask of democracy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
Yeah, see jails in the US? They're a bit more gang infested and rapey than that. Plus once again, there's a reason manslaughter carries a lesser sentence. It's not an arbitrary thing you know. You can say things like "but the victim's family!" though it's just an appeal to emotion fallacy. The simple fact is the mindset of the shooter does and should be considered in sentencing. Why should someone who killed someone because of a bad judgement call get the same sentence as someone who planned to kill someone, then carried it out?
Because given the right tools or weapons, that percould could kill anyone randomly. He's dangerous and you know he's dangerous. You know who he is, what he could do and that makes it easier to stop him from killing someone. When a murder is premeditated, it's much harder to catch the killer because he will most likely have a way of averting responsibility by minimizing the evidence left behind. That said, they're harder to deal with, but the end result is still the same: they took human life. Ergo, the punishment should also be the same, especially when you know the manslaughterer could kill at any time unexpectedly.

As for US jails, granted, but not every jail is like in the US, which is what you seemed to be assuming, so I wanted to point out to you that it's different in Italy and in other parts of Europe, mainly west.
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Old 2009-12-03, 08:31   Link #4836
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Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo View Post
History will always repeat itself because no one cares about it, foolishly thinking that history is in the past and it has nothing to do with them. We're living in a second Cold War right now, but instead of nukes, we have bankers and politicians corrupting the social order while hiding behind a mask of democracy.
Well that was sort of my point. The ideal is great and all, but people trapped in their own fantasy worlds of comfort and easy solutions tend to be those who, intentionally or unintentionally, bring about these things all over again. The world is held hostage by an elite few in a staged power play to maintain the status quo.
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Old 2009-12-03, 08:34   Link #4837
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Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Well that was sort of my point. The ideal is great and all, but people trapped in their own fantasy worlds of comfort and easy solutions tend to be those who, intentionally or unintentionally, bring about these things all over again. The world is held hostage by an elite few in a staged power play to maintain the status quo.
That's the problem with politicians these days. They don't want power for the people, they want the people for their power.
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Old 2009-12-03, 08:43   Link #4838
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A fine line between politicians and statesmen, there is. The days of meritocracy are dead.
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Old 2009-12-03, 08:48   Link #4839
Kusa-San
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Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo View Post
History will always repeat itself because no one cares about it, foolishly thinking that history is in the past and it has nothing to do with them. We're living in a second Cold War right now, but instead of nukes, we have bankers and politicians corrupting the social order while hiding behind a mask of democracy.
Uhm no, it's a second Cold War since it's not the same situation at all. It's more complicated now than before. You don't have two big block like in the Cold War but many block. Now, It's more a war on the economic term which is called economic warfare.

For exemple, the USA with the terrorim reason have put foreign citizen and firm under listening etc...


Quote:
Ergo, the punishment should also be the same, especially when you know the manslaughterer could kill at any time unexpectedly.
I thought you were agaisnt death penalty

Btw, as my father said : " Politics are all the same, they're corrupt."
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Old 2009-12-03, 09:28   Link #4840
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Originally Posted by Kusa-San View Post
Uhm no, it's a second Cold War since it's not the same situation at all. It's more complicated now than before. You don't have two big block like in the Cold War but many block. Now, It's more a war on the economic term which is called economic warfare.

For exemple, the USA with the terrorim reason have put foreign citizen and firm under listening etc...
Lol, the Cold War was defined by the psychological terror going between the US and the Soviet Union back in the day, and the threat lied in the fact that both powers were steadily building their nuclear firepower. Right now, you're right, the war is taking place on many fronts. You're basically agreeing with me here tho. Like I said, instead of nukes, we have bankers and politicians instead, so it's an economic war more than anything else, and it's proven to be more destructive than nukes in a subtle way and more toward the long term.

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Originally Posted by Kusa-San View Post
I thought you were agaisnt death penalty

Btw, as my father said : " Politics are all the same, they're corrupt."
Really? I don't remember saying I was against it.....maybe a long time ago
Nah, but Kamui's the one against it.
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