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Old 2009-12-04, 09:45   Link #4881
Tsuyoshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
the trouble with referendums is that
a)its a very complicated and bureaucratically heavy way to run any country (its a nightmare to get anything done)
b)most of the people who vote have very little of the actual facts, and much less then the government (given that the public does not know everything)

democracy through popular mandate is the preferable way to referendums as a rule, because the people elected actually have to think about more then what the average person sees in the papers
you'd be amazed just how stupid and emotionally driven mob opinion can get at time, especially since people tend not to look more then two days ahead about anything
The problem with popular mandate is that the majority is able to subjugate and impose their will on the minority whether they like it or not. Through the votes of the majority, they're effectively giving power to an individual, who is in turn able to decree whichever law he sees fit for his party/the people who voted for him(?). It's not much different from a dictatorship.

Take the Soviet Union for instance. People had the right to vote during those days (and I also want to mention that Stalin was the first person to allow Russian/Soviet women to vote), although the parties they could vote for were always the same and ultimately different variations or factions of the communist party. Is it really that much different right now? In the US, you either have the choice of Democratic or Republican with a few others mixed into the bucket just for show, but ultimately, they all suggest the same "democratic" ideal. It is the same in Italy, where you always see the same faces in government, the same people always running for PM, and the list goes on and on in democratic countries.

When all is said and done, there is not much difference between democracy and dictatorships. People simply don't like to admit it because that's the kind of knowledge and ideal imposed on them through education and media.
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Old 2009-12-04, 09:51   Link #4882
Narona
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Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo View Post
When all is said and done, there is not much difference between democracy and dictatorships. People simply don't like to admit it because that's the kind of knowledge and ideal imposed on them through education and media.
Tsk tsk. You do know you might get neg repped again if you continue Truth hurts.
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Old 2009-12-04, 09:55   Link #4883
bladeofdarkness
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@narona
what exactly does Switzerland do ?
other then deal with its own internal politics, what exactly does it do on the international stage ?

@Yoko Takeo
Quote:
The problem with popular mandate is that the majority is able to subjugate and impose their will on the minority whether they like it or not.
whats why its called majority vote
the people all vote, and what most voted for gets done
the minority is a minority BECAUSE there are fewer of them then there are of the people who voted for the other guy

you cant complain just because in the end there is one person (or group) who rules
thats always the way things are
but at least in democracies, YOU get to choose who it is.
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Old 2009-12-04, 09:59   Link #4884
Narona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
@narona
what exactly does Switzerland do ?
other then deal with its own internal politics, what exactly does it do on the international stage ?
You did say:

Quote:
but once you let "the people" run the country, you make it impossible for the country to actually work
While there is a government and all in switzerland, they do a lot of popular referendums (just like they did about the minarets, or about what JMvS posted in a previous post. Did you check it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMvS View Post
Reminds me when we voted to make the provisions on pedophilia harsher, and when we voted for violent offenders to be kept in custody for life (each time with a popular initiative).

Unsurprisingly, each were depicted as huge blows from the emotional population toward the reasonable government, and incompatible with "Human Rights".
)

Therefore I thought you talked about switzerland since the debate started because of them ^^

Now, do you talk about a country "without any government"? In that case, yeah I agree, but that was not the debate.

But if you're talking about countries likje switzerland, then I did ask you to explain why their system doesn't work.
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Old 2009-12-04, 10:01   Link #4885
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'Cavemen' inherit billions

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'Cavemen' Inherit Billions





Two penniless brothers who are so poor they live in a cave could be set to inherit a share of a 4 billion fortune. Zsolt and Geza Peladi live in the cave outside Budapest, Hungary, and sell scrap they find on the street for pennies. Now they and a sister who lives in America are said to be on the verge of inheriting their grandmother's massive fortune after a life of poverty.

They learned of their good fortune after homelessness charity workers in Hungary were contacted by lawyers handling the estate of the brothers' maternal grandmother who died recently in Baden-Wurttenberg, Germany."We knew our mother came from a wealthy family but she was a difficult person and severed ties with them, and then later abandoned us and we lost touch with her and our father until she eventually died," said Geza, 43.Under German law however direct descendent's are automatically entitled to a share of any estate.Geza added: "If this all works out it will certainly make up for the life we have had until now - all we really had was each other - no women would look at us living in a cave. "But with money maybe we can find a partner - and finally have a normal life. We don't know yet if she even told our grandmother about us - I understand it was only while they were carrying out genealogical research that lawyers found we existed."Volunteer Gyula Balazs Csaszar - who works for Budapest's Maltans charity - told ATV television: "We were contacted by a lawyer asking us to find the brothers. He claimed he could help their lives with a large sum of money."

The grandmother's name was not revealed to prevent fraudsters trying to cash in on the inheritance but a spokesman for the legal firm said: "We know who we need to speak to and that is the two brothers who we are pretty sure are the grandchildren - there is no need for anyone else to be informed."Now the brothers are obtaining copies of their mother's death certificate and proof of their family connection before travelling to Germany to claim their inheritance.


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Old 2009-12-04, 10:05   Link #4886
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Narona View Post
Tsk tsk. You do know you might get neg repped again if you continue Truth hurts.
Check my usertitle

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
@narona
what exactly does Switzerland do ?
It does things right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
other then deal with its own internal politics, what exactly does it do on the international stage ?
Switzerland is a neutral country. By law, it's not required for the Swiss Govt to get involved in international politics. You seem to imply the fact that it doesn't do so is something Switzerland does wrong. However, you should look at how Swiss govt is working fine without doing what everyone else is doing. It's not involved in globalisation (see earlier post to know my opinion on that), it doesn't delve in war and media fear mongering, and life there is brilliant. I know plenty of Italians who go to work there because of how well things are over there as opposed to their mother country. Along with Australia, it's one of the places I'd like to live in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
@Yoko Takeo

whats why its called majority vote
the people all vote, and what most voted for gets done
the minority is a minority BECAUSE there are fewer of them then there are of the people who voted for the other guy

you cant complain just because in the end there is one person (or group) who rules
thats always the way things are
but at least in democracies, YOU get to choose who it is.
Are votes really that reliable when more than half of them are rigged? Do you know exactly how votes are counted in the first place? You're foregoing the high chances that politicians are corrupt and handle the votes for their own benefits. It's how Hitler won the title of Furher back in the day, and how Mussolini became The Duke. It's how Stalin also came to power despite being a country boy. There's no telling who'se really the minority when you consider all of this.
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Old 2009-12-04, 10:08   Link #4887
bladeofdarkness
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then it seems i was wrong about the nature of the debate

but i do have to ask
do you and Yoko Takeo REALLY believe that democracies and dictatorships are really all that similar ?
putting aside the whole "who runs a government" aspect of it
is it really comparable in the human rights aspect ?

can you imagine a situation where you would be arrested, for an unlimited amount of time (not a day or two) without any right to see a lawyer or a judge, and without even being told WHAT you are in jail for ?
can you imagine something like that happening to you in France for any reason (much less, protesting against your government) ?
because in any given dictatorship, something like that is not only possible, is practically a staple of the system

putting aside the method by which leaders are elected, there is a VERY big difference between democracies and dictatorships

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo View Post
Are votes really that reliable when more than half of them are rigged? Do you know exactly how votes are counted in the first place? You're foregoing the high chances that politicians are corrupt and handle the votes for their own benefits. It's how Hitler won the title of Furher back in the day, and how Mussolini became The Duke. It's how Stalin also came to power despite being a country boy. There's no telling who'se really the minority when you consider all of this.
by that logic, one can NEVER trust anything anyone anywhere says or does
after all, you cant really tell if they are telling the truth or not

if the system actually WORKS then you have people who's profession is to investigate and expose things like that
the position is called State Comptroller in my country, but i'm not sure what they called it anywhere else
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Old 2009-12-04, 10:17   Link #4888
Narona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
do you and Yoko Takeo REALLY believe that democracies and dictatorships are really all that similar ?
putting aside the whole "who runs a government" aspect of it
is it really comparable in the human rights aspect ?
Of course not (in my case), you can't compare the two of them just like that. What I pointed out is that a democracy can be a "kind of" dictatorship with a mask of democracy.

For example, when a government starts doing what it wants without caring about the popular opinion. Or when they decide very important thing (like the lisbon treaty) without checking the popular opinion, nor explaining to them what it is in details. Or (because it doesn't concern the governments only) when medias spread made-up norms that create a lot of problems to the ones who don't fit the norm. etc etc etc.

I don't say it's better (of course not), but at least in a true dictatorship, you know how it is and they make their objectives and laws very clear to understand. In a lot of supposed democracy, you think it's democratic, but behind the curtain, it can be way different than what you imagine it to be. And so, not that democratic. Usually, they just give you enough for you to not wonder if there's something wrong (because for example as you said, people tend to not think beyond two days in the future). It can become a kind of vicious dictatorship imo.

But as you said, the "good part" of a false democracy is that they give you more basic rights and a "supposed" justice when problems happen to you.
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Old 2009-12-04, 10:18   Link #4889
Cipher
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Originally Posted by Zu Ra View Post


Source : Ananova
Somehow, this makes me feel cheerful. Hope same thing happens to me..

I'd like to think that the lawyer/s is working with "falsely identified brothers" and that they'll split the money after. still, its cool.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Narona View Post
Of course not (in my case), you can't compare the two of them just like that. What I pointed out is that a democracy can be a "kind of" dictatorship with a mask of democracy.
still, no matter the height, it is a mere possibility. What makes dictatorship less of a better government is that absolute "steeled" trait.
Quote:
I don't say it's better (of course not), but at least in a true dictatorship, you know how it is and they make their objectives and laws very clear to understand. In a lot of supposed democracy, you think it's democratic, but behind the curtain, it can be way different than what you imagine it to be. And so, not that democratic. Usually, they just give you enough for you to not wonder if there's something wrong (because for example as you said, people tend to not think beyond two days in the future). It can become a kind of vicious dictatorship imo.
will knowing help any? a dictatorship enforces people to do things and thus have power over many society sections----including media leading to an "actual less knowing".

while a democracy, well...there's more power for the majority, so media control is harder and lying is harder.
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Old 2009-12-04, 10:25   Link #4890
bladeofdarkness
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as a general rule, the way to determine if you are in a democracy or not is whether or not they have two parties (not candidates, parties)
if both candidates are from the same party, then its not a democracy

and i agree with you on most of what you said, but there IS one thing i would disagree with
the notion that in a true dictatorship, you know how it is and they make their objectives and laws very clear
that is not always the case

in fact, one of the most clear signs of a dictatorship, is that you can never REALLY know if you are breaking the law or not in same cases
simply because, whether or not you broke the law is something the dictator can decide as he sees fit
you can litteraly do nothing wrong, but still get accused of being a criminal, simply because you are in the wrong place at the wrong time
or you know too much
or someone doesnt like you
or because of a mistake in identity
or because your wife strikes someone elses fancy
and so on and so forth
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Old 2009-12-04, 10:31   Link #4891
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
but i do have to ask
do you and Yoko Takeo REALLY believe that democracies and dictatorships are really all that similar ?
putting aside the whole "who runs a government" aspect of it
is it really comparable in the human rights aspect ?
The theory behind democracy is drastically different from dictatorships (which is ultimately a term for a govt where its head has absolute power, not a real political ideology) such as (Stalin's) Communism, Imperialism, you name it. The reality, however, it drastically different. All my reasons are explained above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
by that logic, one can NEVER trust anything anyone anywhere says or does
after all, you cant really tell if they are telling the truth or not

if the system actually WORKS then you have people who's profession is to investigate and expose things like that
the position is called State Comptroller in my country, but i'm not sure what they called it anywhere else
It's like in that movie by Rodney Dangerfield "Back To School" where the lecturer at university was explaining the theory behind supply and demand and how it affects a business, and Rodney tells him how the truth of it is that you have to pay off retailers, people supplying raw materials and all those people. It's the same concept in politics. If you can pay off people who can affect your business in order to ensure a good outcome for yourself, you do it. These state controllers are exactly the type of people who receive large sums of money to count votes to the concerned party's favor. You can't deny that sort of thing happens. You mention the scenario where the system works according to the theory, but like in business, the theory tends to become inpractical.
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Old 2009-12-04, 10:33   Link #4892
Slice of Life
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Originally Posted by Narona View Post
Maybe, but one thing I saw in the case of the Irish (about the Lisbon Treaty) is that a government can actually "choose" to re-vote as long as they like till they get the results they want.
This was a wonderful example for all what is wrong with referenda on such issues. For starters, the second treaty was not the same as the first. Also, people complained about things that never were in the treaty in the first place or were already applicable law before Lisbon. (Just like the minaret issue was never about minarets.) Thanks to shady lobbies setting the agenda like Libertas that seems to have vanished for the face of the Earth since then and British Europhobic money - in the name or Irish sovereignty, what irony. As far as their sincerity and clear-sightedness is concerned the europhobes are no different from truthers, birthers, holocaust, evolution, or global warming deniers. We can discuss examples if you like but not in this thread.

And if you're for direct democracy then why should the vote of over 2/3 of the population for the treaty in the second referendum not count. Why do people change their opinion so easily anyway. I only see two possiblities:
1. They understood that the second treaty was different.
2. People are stupid

What we had was a decision to be taken from the hands of elected representatives who got elected because they were willing to take responsibility (in the best case, many of them love referenda too because then they're not the ones to blame) to people that said "I don't understand it so I'm against it."and/or "I don't understand it, that's the government's fault." and/or "I don't like the politicians, the politicians like this, so I'm against it." Every single argument is a testament of irresposibility. Like teenagers with a temper. Give me people who at least understand that such a decision is finally about them (and others) and that it's therefore in their best interest (and their duty) to inform themselves impartially then I'm a bit more willing to believe that their decisions might lead to a better life for all than those of elected representatives.

And of course the decision can be taken back. No matter what people claim, the EU is not a state, its legitimation comes from the member states it can thus be dissolved by the member states (as opposed to, say, the USA which could only dissolve itself), and every member is free to leave, with the Lisbon treaty even explicitly so. If the Irish really don't like the EU on the current conditions(in the light of the second referendum they seem to be OK with it, but anyway) they can vote a government into office that offers a new referendum, leave the EU, and see if they find better conditions as members of EFTA, NAFTA, ASEAN or on their own. If it goes well, more power to them. Of course, should it go wrong they would blame the politicians regardless.
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Old 2009-12-04, 10:34   Link #4893
Narona
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Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
will knowing help any? a dictatorship enforces people to do things and thus have power over many society sections----including media leading to an "actual less knowing".

while a democracy, well...there's more power for the majority, so media control is harder and lying is harder.
? Yeah, not all the time though. In France, when many famous medias start to take the defense of people like Polanski or Mitterand using shacky arguments just to back-up the government, you really start to wonder if, at least, most of the big medias are really that free from any control.

It's even worse in italia, just ask Yoko (I did watch a TV program about it a few days ago).

About "lying is harder", I don't think so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
and i agree with you on most of what you said, but there IS one thing i would disagree with
the notion that in a true dictatorship, you know how it is and they make their objectives and laws very clear
that is not always the case

in fact, one of the most clear signs of a dictatorship, is that you can never REALLY know if you are breaking the law or not in same cases
simply because, whether or not you broke the law is something the dictator can decide as he sees fit
you can litteraly do nothing wrong, but still get accused of being a criminal, simply because you are in the wrong place at the wrong time
or you know too much
or someone doesnt like you
or because of a mistake in identity
or because your wife strikes someone elses fancy
and so on and so forth
Good point, so let me change my argument. In a true dictatorship you know that it is a dictatorship from the start.
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Old 2009-12-04, 10:44   Link #4894
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Originally Posted by Narona View Post
? Yeah, not all the time though. In France, when many famous medias start to take the defense of people like Polanski or Mitterand using shacky arguments just to back-up the government, you really start to wonder if, at least, most of the big medias are really that free from any control.


It's even worse in italia, just ask Yoko (I did watch a TV program about it a few days ago).

About "lying is harder", I don't think so.
In my country, the opposite happens, the leaders are always bad-mouthed by the rich media entrepreneurs that sometimes I feel its so excessive.

I'd imagine that there should be apart of your media that should support the opposite side. If not, then see if elections are well-played, and if, again, not, someone might've gotten too strong...and that's not democracy.(though not democracy it does help eliminate *some* troubles with the U.S. for its name.)

Its the dispersion of power that creates possible "self-righteous" powerful men who plans for more dispersion.

The competition is a good thing.
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Old 2009-12-04, 10:45   Link #4895
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@Yoko Takeo
i said that it works IF the system is in any way functional
but i kinda find it hard to accept the notion that the state controllers get payed off to look the other way one something like fake votes
its not a small thing to fake votes
its the sort of thing that triggers revolutions (see iran)

you can lie about the small things and end up getting in trouble if its discovered
the big things are kinda more problematic

@narona
i agree that you know from the start
i just dont think it does you much good
most dictators are VERY good at deflecting criticism by finding enemies from without to blame
most people would much sooner support their country in a war against a foreign enemy rather then they would protest against their own enemies from within any day of the week
thats why dictatorships are always in conflict with other countries throughout their existance
they cant survive without having someone to blame for everything
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Old 2009-12-04, 13:36   Link #4896
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Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo View Post
When all is said and done, there is not much difference between democracy and dictatorships. People simply don't like to admit it because that's the kind of knowledge and ideal imposed on them through education and media.
Take a look at South East Asia, especially Singapore. You are right in that point, but it doesn't really matter what kind of regime is ruling the country, as long as the poverty line doesn't hit rock bottom and nobody really starves to death (unless purposefully), does it really matter?
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Old 2009-12-04, 13:55   Link #4897
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I also think democracy is similar to dictatorship, i wonder whatever happen to a constituted republic for the USA
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Old 2009-12-04, 14:36   Link #4898
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
@Yoko Takeo
i said that it works IF the system is in any way functional
but i kinda find it hard to accept the notion that the state controllers get payed off to look the other way one something like fake votes
its not a small thing to fake votes
its the sort of thing that triggers revolutions (see iran)

you can lie about the small things and end up getting in trouble if its discovered
the big things are kinda more problematic
Yes, it is hard to accept, but you wouldn't believe just how much corruption there is in Europe, especially in Italy where people are paid just to be in parliament and nothing else as a consequence of personal favors and what not. Why do you think the majority of European governments are so eager to protect criminals? It is not because they think it is right for the criminal to reform himself or because they believe even they have a heart. No, it's because there is corruption and unsurprisingly enough, a number of politicians are guilty of some of the same crimes others are thrown in jail for. Rape, pedophilia (which is especially common among priests), black market deals with the Mafia (and Berlusconi was caught up in such an incident only a few days ago in fact), blackmailing, and the list goes on for hours. When you consider all of this, is it really that hard to believe that state controllers take bribes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
@narona
i agree that you know from the start
i just dont think it does you much good
most dictators are VERY good at deflecting criticism by finding enemies from without to blame
most people would much sooner support their country in a war against a foreign enemy rather then they would protest against their own enemies from within any day of the week
thats why dictatorships are always in conflict with other countries throughout their existance
they cant survive without having someone to blame for everything
Democratic leaders are just as good if not better. Look at what Bush did to Saddam. That's why Bush decided to make war on terrorism after 9/11. He wanted to give the population a motivation to rally all of the US into a common cause. Democratic countries have also been in conflict with other countries too. It was a "democratic country" that caused WW2 to begin. And no, I don't mean Germany, I mean the allies such the UK and the other bigwigs at the time for being too appeasing toward Hitler when they knew he was a threat to them. Modern dictatorships don't have as great a history of conflict as democratic ones either. the USSR and Communist China were actually in very good terms with each other because they shared the same beliefs. There was conflict between dictatorships and democracies, but not between two dictatorships. Democracies also cannot survive without a scapegoat.
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Old 2009-12-04, 15:15   Link #4899
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Safe School Czar's recommended reading list reads like "Sankaku" blog material

http://gatewaypundit.firstthings.com/2009/12/
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Old 2009-12-04, 15:39   Link #4900
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Safe School Czar's recommended reading list reads like "Sankaku" blog material

http://gatewaypundit.firstthings.com/2009/12/
Sankaku isn't that bad compared to Fox News. If you picked something for accuracy, which will you pick?

All forms of media ingested must be taken with a pinch of salt, it is the personal judgement that alters perspective, which is inherently different from one person to another.
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