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Old 2009-12-05, 10:29   Link #121
DJ Trouble
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Originally Posted by AddiKtioNn-BlaCk View Post
I don't see the Marines are the bad guys. One Piece is not simplistic to the point where one side is good and one side is bad. We are shown off and on where you have ruthless pirates and good marines, then on the hand we have ruthless marines and good pirates.
While both sides have "good" and "bad" people, the Marines as a whole are generally shown to be a ruthless and incompassionate government organization, as they constantly and consistently put the needs of preserving their own power and the desires of the leaders over the well-being of the civilians of the world.

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Originally Posted by SMASHERJACKSON View Post
but either way, or w/e happens the lack of haki on luffys part has not been impressive, if he could utilize it at amazon lily why doesnt he now?
Luffy has never been shown to consciously use his haki or have any control over it, so it shouldn't be surprising that he's not using it during this battle. The most he's done is release a burst of it that's affected weaklings in his immediate surroundings.
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Old 2009-12-05, 11:56   Link #122
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It's complet non-sense.
It's like saying anybody stronger than Luffy can defeat Enel the same way Luffy did.
Jesus, I'm not saying that Mihawk will be able to beat Kizaru, I'm just saying that he should be able to TOUCH him.

The thing is, both Ray and Mihawk are swordsmen, and Mihawk is stronger then Ray.

If there was someone stronger then Luffy who was also made out of Rubber, I'm pretty sure that character would be able to defeat Enel the same way Luffy did as well.
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Old 2009-12-05, 12:09   Link #123
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Originally Posted by DJ Trouble View Post
While both sides have "good" and "bad" people, the Marines as a whole are generally shown to be a ruthless and incompassionate government organization, as they constantly and consistently put the needs of preserving their own power and the desires of the leaders over the well-being of the civilians of the world.

Rofl...sounds like the U.S. government to me. lol.
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Old 2009-12-05, 13:15   Link #124
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Originally Posted by paradox13 View Post
Jesus, I'm not saying that Mihawk will be able to beat Kizaru, I'm just saying that he should be able to TOUCH him.

The thing is, both Ray and Mihawk are swordsmen, and Mihawk is stronger then Ray.

If there was someone stronger then Luffy who was also made out of Rubber, I'm pretty sure that character would be able to defeat Enel the same way Luffy did as well.
Are you implying that you can be stronger than Luffy whitout having his attributes?
What in the world makes you think that Mihawk has Ray's attributes just because you think he's stronger?
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Old 2009-12-05, 13:49   Link #125
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^You are correct in that statement. For example, presumably, Shanks is something of a swordsman, but simply because he is a swordsman doesn't mean that Mihawk is the stronger (overall) of the 2, it simply means Mihawk is the stronger swordsman (and whatever that may entitle). The same is true of Rayleigh. Rayleigh, also presumably a swordsman, may very well be stronger than Mihawk, but Mihawk is definitely the stronger swordsman.

That being said, this is kind of a side discussion (and I do still believe that Mihawk has the ability to fight Logia's without resorting to their natural weaknesses)...

In regards to the chapter, I am still unsure if Akainu is a Logia, or if he was simply forming magma on his body. Specifically, I can clearly see Kizaru and Aokiji "breaking" when they are struck (and pieces of their heads seem to disappear in the onslaught of Luffy's barrage), but Akainu doesn't quite have same level of detail, so I am unsure (this wouldn't be the first time we have had a viscous substance for a paramecia, after all).

That being said, I find it funny that I mentioned wanting to see Yamakaji earlier in the thread, but then completely skipped over him when he appeared in this chapter...
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Old 2009-12-05, 14:51   Link #126
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Are you implying that you can be stronger than Luffy whitout having his attributes?
What in the world makes you think that Mihawk has Ray's attributes just because you think he's stronger?
Firstly, both Mihawk and Ray are swordsmen. That is where their attributes converge.

Secondly, Oda states that Mihawk is stronger then Rayleigh.

Since Mihawk is the strongest swordsmen in the world, and assuming that Ray is a swordsman as well (which is a reasonable assumption given that he was seen using a sword in flashbacks as well as against Kizaru), he is definitely stronger then Ray.

Its like this:
Mihawk = strongest swordsman in the world
Rayleigh = swordsman
Mihawk = stronger hten Rayleig?

How does that not make sense?
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Old 2009-12-05, 15:00   Link #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paradox13 View Post
Since Mihawk is the strongest swordsmen in the world, and assuming that Ray is a swordsman as well (which is a reasonable assumption given that he was seen using a sword in flashbacks as well as against Kizaru), he is definitely stronger then Ray.
Mihawk may be the greatest in swordplay in the world, but unlike Rayleigh, he hasn't been shown to have the power of haki.

Rayleigh would definetly lose if he went up against Mihawk with swordplay alone, but with his haki, he could probably even up the odds.
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Old 2009-12-05, 15:18   Link #128
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Originally Posted by paradox13 View Post
Firstly, both Mihawk and Ray are swordsmen. That is where their attributes converge.

Secondly, Oda states that Mihawk is stronger then Rayleigh.

Since Mihawk is the strongest swordsmen in the world, and assuming that Ray is a swordsman as well (which is a reasonable assumption given that he was seen using a sword in flashbacks as well as against Kizaru), he is definitely stronger then Ray.

Its like this:
Mihawk = strongest swordsman in the world
Rayleigh = swordsman
Mihawk = stronger hten Rayleig?

How does that not make sense?
If Mihawk > Ray in SWORDSMANSHIP it still doesn't mean that he can hurt Logias.

Do you know Ryuma, Kaku or the swordsman in Buggy's Crew?
Did Zoro who's stronger than them use their techniques?
No, he didn't.
So it's retarted to think that Mihawk can hurt Logias just cuz Ray did so, being stronger than someone doesn't mean that you can do whatever that person can do.
If you only needed SWORDSMANSHIP to hurt Logias, Brook would've been able to hurt Kizaru and Zoro would've also hurt Enel.
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Old 2009-12-05, 15:25   Link #129
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Originally Posted by MihawkXGP View Post
In my opinion, Sengoku has no DF power. He is a Haki based fighter, kinda like how Sentamaru was fighting..i expect him to be a similiar type of fighter...except vastly stronger.
And somewhat similar or a foil to Garp but they both seem to be brutal melee types.
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Old 2009-12-05, 15:31   Link #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paradox13 View Post
How does that not make sense?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenryuken View Post
Did Zoro who's stronger than them use their techniques?
No, he didn't.
So it's retarted to think that Mihawk can hurt Logias just cuz Ray did so, being stronger than someone doesn't mean that you can do whatever that person can do.
It's still debatable if the "breath" Zoro heard in his fight against Das Bones was Haki or not, but what isn't really debatable, is the fact that the path Zoro chose in that moment was the path than any swordsman undoubtedly comes to before they can "evolve" or level up. In other words, there is no reason to assume that Zoro is unique (especially considering that Luffy's Haki is shared by at least one other if not more than that) inregards to the "breath" he heard, rather the event was treated as a natural evolution for Zoro as a swordsman.

Consequently, since Zoro is following a path that leads to Mihawk, it stands to reason that Mihawk, when he was first climbing up to the top, would have had a similar path to Zoro's. So, it seems reasonable to assume that Mihawk can also hear the "breath", and if so, that could be the necessary ability needed to cut an element (and yes, cut implies an act of violence (otherwise, why would it even be mentioned), not the simple separation that Tenryuken has alluded to in the past), something we know Mihawk has mastered.

To speculate further, it is possible that Rayleigh and Shanks have never heard the "breath", but rather have used directed/active Haki to counterbalance this discrepancy as a swordsman. Consequently, while both can cut an element, they use different mechanisms to achieve their goals.

--

In regards to the chapter, I have never noticed DoFlamingo's high-heels before, but after seeing them I have the strange urge to find a pair for myself (sorry bad j/k, the image of DoFlamingo foot striking Crocodile's hook looks like a weird pair of high-heel shoes), ...I also have had the growing urge to cosplay as Doflamingo for quite awhile. Maybe this arc will finally push me over the edge, and I will ask a friend to design a DoFlamingo outfit for me...

That being said, is Oars standing or kneeling? Because it looks like he is standing, which makes little sense considering he is currently missing a foot...

Last edited by james0246; 2009-12-05 at 15:44.
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Old 2009-12-05, 15:51   Link #131
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
It's still debatable if the "breath" Zoro heard in his fight against Das Bones was Haki or not, but what isn't really debatable, is the fact that the path Zoro chose in that moment was the path than any swordsman undoubtedly comes to before they can "evolve" or level up. In other words, there is no reason to assume that Zoro is unique (especially considering that Luffy's Haki is shared by at least one other if not more than that) inregards to the "breath" he heard, rather the event was treated as a natural evolution for Zoro as a swordsman.

Consequently, since Zoro is following a path that leads to Mihawk, it stands to reason that Mihawk, when he was first climbing up to the top, would have had a similar path to Zoro's. So, it seems reasonable to assume that Mihawk can also hear the "breath", and if so, that could be the necessary ability needed to cut an element (and yes, cut implies an act of violence (otherwise, why would it even be mentioned), not the simple separation that Tenryuken has alluded to in the past), something we know Mihawk has mastered.

To speculate further, it is possible that Rayleigh and Shanks have never heard the "breath", but rather have used directed/active Haki to counterbalance this discrepancy as a swordsman. Consequently, while both can cut an element, they use different mechanisms to achieve their goals.

--

In regards to the chapter, I have never noticed DoFlamingo's high-heels before, but after seeing them I have the strange urge to find a pair for myself (sorry bad j/k, the image of DoFlamingo foot striking Crocodile's hook looks like a weird pair of high-heel shoes), ...I also have had the growing urge to cosplay as Doflamingo for quite awhile. Maybe this arc will finally push me over the edge, and I will ask a friend to design a DoFlamingo outfit for me...

That being said, is Oars standing or kneeling? Because it looks like he is standing, which makes little sense considering he is currently missing a foot...

I don't think he standing , if he was he be way higher than that wall, more like he on his knees to me . Can't be to certain cause it looks funny from far .
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Old 2009-12-05, 15:56   Link #132
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^Yeah, that was my problem. When we see him in the long shot on page 8-9, it is hard to see his legs, and when he is moved to the foreground, the panels aren't big enough to see his body and his feet. So, I am never sure exactly where his shoulders are in proportion to the shield/gate, and consequently cannot tell if he is drawn correctly or not (I assume he is, but it is a little unclear).
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Old 2009-12-05, 16:15   Link #133
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Quote:
If Mihawk > Ray in SWORDSMANSHIP it still doesn't mean that he can hurt Logias.
What are you talking about man?

I'm just saying, both Ray and Mihawk belong to the category 'swordsman', and Mihawk is the strongest swordsman in the world, therefore Mihawk MUST be stronger then Ray.

=.=

How is that even hard to understand at all?

Its like, WB and Sengoku are both men, WB is the strongest man int he world, therefore he must be stronger then Sengoku.

Or Messi and Beckham are both football players, Messi is currently the best footballer int he world, therefore Messi must be better then Beckham.

WHY IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?
OMFG
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Old 2009-12-05, 16:20   Link #134
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oh yeah, sentomarou has yet to brawl with luffy in this war yet, also kuma tho i dont expect to see the latter do so at all now.
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Old 2009-12-05, 16:30   Link #135
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^What you do not understand is that being the greatest swordsmen does not equal being the strongest. For instance, using the example of Whitebeard, He is definitively called the Strongest Man, that indicates that he is the overall strongest (realistically, it is just a title used to convey that he has fought equally with Roger). Mihawk, though, with the title of Strongest swordsman, is only the strongest in terms of swords. Consequently, if someone uses a sword, their swordsmanship would naturally be considered lower than Mihawk’s, but since that is potentially only one aspect of what we can call a person's "Strength”, which means if the lesser swordsman had another ability, they could potentially equal or surpass Mihawk's overall strength, but not his swordsmanship.

Consequently, a swordsman can be a stronger individual than Mihawk, but not be a stronger swordsman (especially, if being considered the strongest swordsman has more to do with how the swordsman can cut an element, and less to do with the actual sword or subsequently school of combat).

To put it another way, the ultimate scale is against Whitebeard, not Mihawk, so everything must then be compared against Whitebeard. Consequently, someone like Shanks or Rayleigh could be far closer in strength to Whitebeard, but they could still be a weaker swordsmen compared to Mihawk.
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Old 2009-12-05, 16:41   Link #136
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Consequently, if someone uses a sword, their swordsmanship would naturally be considered lower than Mihawk
I understand what you're saying. My point is that Rayleigh has been shown to use a sword in both past and present, so it is natural to assume that he too is a swordsman. I accept the possibility that he is not a swordsman, and if so, then my statement will not be true.
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Old 2009-12-05, 16:52   Link #137
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Originally Posted by paradox13 View Post
I understand what you're saying. My point is that Rayleigh has been shown to use a sword in both past and present, so it is natural to assume that he too is a swordsman. I accept the possibility that he is not a swordsman, and if so, then my statement will not be true.
You misunderstand my point (or, more probably, I was not clear), even if Rayleigh and Shanks are swordsmen through and through, that still doesn't mean that they are weaker or not stronger than Mihawk. Being a swordsman simply means that you use a sword, it does not mean that there are no other abilities that can also be used.

For example, take Enshi from Rurouni Kenshin. He is a fine swordsman, but he was (intentionally designed) weaker than both Kenshin and Shishio (and probably Aoshi) in terms of swordsmanship, so to counterbalance his weakness, he developed extra skills (as well as a killer plan) that allowed him to fight evenly against Kenshin. Shanks or Rayleigh could very well be the same. They are weaker with just a sword, but when you add their x-factor (another ability previously unknown or unexplained), then they become equal or greater to Mihawk.

Note, I am not saying this is true, or even speculating that this is what will happen. In the end, I could care less who is equal or who is greater between the 3. Rather, I am just walking through the logic to show how a swordsman can be stronger than Mihawk, but weaker in swordsmanship.
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Old 2009-12-05, 16:53   Link #138
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
To speculate further, it is possible that Rayleigh and Shanks have never heard the "breath", but rather have used directed/active Haki to counterbalance this discrepancy as a swordsman. Consequently, while both can cut an element, they use different mechanisms to achieve their goals.
That's something paradox13 can't understand.
Everybody fight his own way.
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Originally Posted by paradox13 View Post
What are you talking about man?
About Mihawk not being able to hurt the Admirals.

Quote:
I'm just saying, both Ray and Mihawk belong to the category 'swordsman', and Mihawk is the strongest swordsman in the world, therefore Mihawk MUST be stronger then Ray.
Even if what you think is true, it still isn't relevant to any Logia since Mihawk can't touch them.

Quote:
How is that even hard to understand at all?
It's only hard for you to understand that what you're talking about is irrelevant.

Quote:
Its like, WB and Sengoku are both men, WB is the strongest man int he world, therefore he must be stronger then Sengoku.
LOL.
Did you figure that out on your own?

Quote:
Or Messi and Beckham are both football players, Messi is currently the best footballer int he world, therefore Messi must be better then Beckham.

WHY IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?
OMFG
Your stupidity is amazing, are the Admirals in the category "Swordsmen"?


EDIT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
You misunderstand my point (or, more probably, I was not clear), even if Rayleigh and Shanks are swordsmen through and through, that still doesn't mean that they are weaker or not stronger than Mihawk. Being a swordsman simply means that you use a sword, it does not mean that there are no other abilities that can also be used.

For example, take Enshi from Rurouni Kenshin. He is a fine swordsman, but he was (intentionally designed) weaker than both Kenshin and Shishio (and probably Aoshi) in terms of swordsmanship, so to counterbalance his weakness, he developed extra skills (as well as a killer plan) that allowed him to fight evenly against Kenshin. Shanks or Rayleigh could very well be the same. They are weaker with just a sword, but when you add their x-factor (another ability previously unknown or unexplained), then they become equal or greater to Mihawk.

Note, I am not saying this is true, or even speculating that this is what will happen. In the end, I could care less who is equal or who is greater between the 3. Rather, I am just walking through the logic to show how a swordsman can be stronger than Mihawk, but weaker in swordsmanship.
I am tryng to make him understand that but apparently my "Language" isn't as good as yours.
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Old 2009-12-05, 17:01   Link #139
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Quote:

For example, take Enshi from Rurouni Kenshin. He is a fine swordsman, but he was (intentionally designed) weaker than both Kenshin and Shishio (and probably Aoshi) in terms of swordsmanship, so to counterbalance his weakness, he developed extra skills (as well as a killer plan) that allowed him to fight evenly against Kenshin. Shanks or Rayleigh could very well be the same. They are weaker with just a sword, but when you add their x-factor (another ability previously unknown or unexplained), then they become equal or greater to Mihawk.
I understand what you're saying.

The thing is that the whole point of being a swordsman is that one is strongest whilst fighting wiht a sword. Whats the point of being a so called swordsman if one is better with a gun or with ones fists?

Besides, if we look at the swordsmen in other crews, none have used anything other then their swords (Kaku, Zoro, Vista, Buggy's resident swordsman, Ryumma etc etc).

Quote:
Your stupidity is amazing, are the Admirals in the category "Swordsmen"?
I thought we were comparing Mihawk and Rayleigh?

Quote:
Even if what you think is true, it still isn't relevant to any Logia since Mihawk can't touch them.
Sigh.
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Old 2009-12-05, 17:08   Link #140
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Doflamingo needs to cut off Oars' remaining leg to make sure that he stays down for good .
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