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Old 2009-12-04, 18:43   Link #1781
Flinch
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willy, Lancelot surprised him because every time Lancelot got a new weapon, no one but he knew what it was. Had he not forgotten about Gilgamesh due to Mad Enhancement, I doubt Gilgamesh could have ever beaten him.
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Old 2009-12-04, 18:53   Link #1782
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I doubt...if anything he would've gone serious at last. He almost defeated Berserker easily in an areial battle. Berserker was forced into defenisve as he had no way to break throug Gil's shields and he was assaulted constantly with swearm of Noble Phantasms. If Gil had a faint idea about the F-15's structures and the fact the Eldricht Ambionation Berserker supposed to crash into would dissapear instantly then he would've won eventually(Or if the tentacle monster disspear few seconds later and Gil's almost perfect plan finishes Berserker). And on the first encounter which you mentioned Gilgamesh would eventually get serious and use the abilities of his Noble Phantasms(for example sneak attack him with his Warp-Skythe...without instincts like Saber's Berserker is hopeless against it).
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Old 2009-12-04, 19:56   Link #1783
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Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
Lol...stat-empowering sword...I doubt Shirou would have that. And even if may it's a much muhc greater speculation than the thing I did before. We know somehow well what Gil is capable of and that Shirou is still a human. And I say again: Shirou only recreates the experience of the sword! Not the wielder and iot only gives him a slightly more skill, but isn't the knownledge and experience to fight effectively. Eye of the Mind is a good point, but it still not enough as Gil's senses had about the same effect.

In short it is an obvious plot hole.
You're pretty much arguing over nonsense here. I didn't say that Shirou would recreate the power of the wielder, but a sword that makes you faster is just about as plausible as a sword that shoots out laser beams and a sword that compresses air to create time-space vacuums and a scythe that bends time and space and...

Honestly, I'm getting the impression you're a little bit of a Gil-wanker here. Shirou pushed himself to his limits, and with an assload of external factors working in his favor, he managed to deal a wound to Gilgamesh. It is simply mind-boggling how you have so much trouble accepting this.
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Old 2009-12-05, 02:09   Link #1784
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No...I am more of a Servant wanker if anything. There's no way for a human to defeat a Servant in actual combat without a great surprise attack. And UBW's surprise long gone by then.
I am just a realist. If someone with better reflexes, strenght, agility, speed, endurance, senses, combat experience, intelligence(as Gil is quite intelligent actually even if super-arogant) fights then it's pretty much decided as an easy victory. Gil can't be cornered in melee as for a Servant Shirou's whole moveset is foolish even if the sword guides his strikes. Even if intentionally holding back Gil would still be superior enough to simply counter Shirou, a mere human with crude fighting skills and borrowed experience of the swords.
Those are pretty much stated things in the VN. even with E class agility, endurance or strenght a Servant is over the limits of what a human can achieve. And Gil has the second best stats in the game(after berserker, if we don't count the corrupted Servants)

And your speed-giving sword is somehow baseless as Nasu didn't mention it even once to be exisiting. It's possible to be existing but it's entirely speculation as we don't know what kind of weapons Gil urled at Shirou before. And also÷ inside UBW Shirou usually can't memorise new weapons(as it costs prana to do so...inverted rule).

The fight's last part pissed me off so, because it completely changed Gil's character and power, to make him close to a whiny coward which he isn't(as any of the Heroic Spirits). It was a somehow underhanded method to make Shirou look like a total hero.
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Old 2009-12-05, 05:38   Link #1785
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Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
even with E class agility, endurance or strenght a Servant is over the limits of what a human can achieve.
You sure? I thought E was only a little above human standard...

A theoretical Servant with an E in everything (like, say, Avenger) could easily be trounced by a powerful human... their only advantages are, yes, their immunity to nonmagical damage and sheer ability to keep going even when missing several appendages.
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Old 2009-12-05, 06:36   Link #1786
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I'm actually fine with Shirou winning, I just dislike how he cornered Gilgamesh. I feel it would have made a lot more sense if UBW simply overpowered gate of Babylon like it was doing at the beginning instead of Shirou charging Gilgamesh and slashing his arm off. A single rank in difference only means a weapon is stronger, not that it can "slice through the weaker weapon like butter", that statement makes absolutely 0 sense. orangejuicetang explained it pretty well.
And who's to say Shirou did not use the swords as broken phantasms like Archer's caladbolg? They lose a rank from the projection but gain a rank at the cost of being destroyed afterwards. With all the swords in UBW, it's very possible.
I'm also factoring that Shirou himself has probably never seen (much less traced) the NPs of Gil, so how can it exist in UBW much less make an accurate copy of it along with the experience and whatnot that accompanies the sword? Even if Shirou himself managed to summon UBW without the help of Emiya, I can safely bet that most if not all the weapons in his arsenal are just hollow swords in which the original can simply slice through like a hot knife through butter. That is what should have happened and makes perfect sense, but plot hax saves the day ya?

Doesn't it also cost extra prana to use a broken phantasm? I mean if it were a simple move to execute, why didn't Emiya chain spam them against Berserker? I should add that Emiya used a bow and loaded the broken phantasm as an arrow. Since the bow Emiya has is specific to his class as an Archer (to the extent of my knowledge anyway), where the hell will Shirou get a bow to launch his swords with?

I think the best way to explain how the fight went is how your typical shonen fight usually goes. The big bad has this uber awesome power that should be insurmountable to the hero. Then out of nowhere the hero gains a new power inside of him! The hero then channels this new power along with guts and maybe a hint of stupidity and beats the big bad through sheer will! Hell the Gil/Shirou fight isn't even the largest plot hole that existed in UBW. A certain Emiya still lingering around to give the finishing blow cements the final nail in the WTFness that is UBW.
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Old 2009-12-05, 10:05   Link #1787
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No...I am more of a Servant wanker if anything. There's no way for a human to defeat a Servant in actual combat without a great surprise attack. And UBW's surprise long gone by then.
It wasn't actual combat. Just by virtue of being in his Reality Marble, Shirou had a huge advantage. And Shirou can replicate the abilities of a Servant to a small degree.

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I am just a realist. If someone with better reflexes, strenght, agility, speed, endurance, senses, combat experience, intelligence(as Gil is quite intelligent actually even if super-arogant) fights then it's pretty much decided as an easy victory. Gil can't be cornered in melee as for a Servant Shirou's whole moveset is foolish even if the sword guides his strikes. Even if intentionally holding back Gil would still be superior enough to simply counter Shirou, a mere human with crude fighting skills and borrowed experience of the swords.
First of all, Gilgamesh must have not expected Shirou to even try to get close. It wasn't really a fight, it was just Shirou jumping there and landing one blow. If he had a sword that could make that possible in a smaller timespan than Gilgamesh reaction time, then the scene is explainable. I'm saying, he had one.

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Those are pretty much stated things in the VN. even with E class agility, endurance or strenght a Servant is over the limits of what a human can achieve. And Gil has the second best stats in the game(after berserker, if we don't count the corrupted Servants)
It's never stated what E class represents. Going by the fight between Caster and Rin and how Kuzuki dealt with Rin, peak human is fairly above the E rank. Though Kuzuki is broken. Anyway, Shirou cut off Berserker's arm with Caliburn. He could find something to do the same to Gilgamesh, if he caught him by surprise.

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And your speed-giving sword is somehow baseless as Nasu didn't mention it even once to be exisiting. It's possible to be existing but it's entirely speculation as we don't know what kind of weapons Gil urled at Shirou before. And also÷ inside UBW Shirou usually can't memorise new weapons(as it costs prana to do so...inverted rule).
Well, you wanted an explanation, so I gave one. Nasu never mentioning doesn't invalidate it, since there must be one, but Nasu didn't write anything. I just thought one that was possible. Although the scene would be much funnier if Shirou went "Alright, I have to kill him! This is my last chance! It may cost a lot of Prana (but who cares, I'm taking it from Rin), but I have to trace it... a weapon that will certainly hit the heart... *except it never really did except when it was used against its wielder, lol* GAE BOLG!! HEARTSTRIKE!!" *Gae Bolg hits Gilgamesh' arm. His other arm.* "...great, thanks, Lancer." *Gilgamesh Ea's the fuck out of Shirou*

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The fight's last part pissed me off so, because it completely changed Gil's character and power, to make him close to a whiny coward which he isn't(as any of the Heroic Spirits). It was a somehow underhanded method to make Shirou look like a total hero.
Actually, Gilgamesh is pretty horrible in the whole UBW route. He was just... so un-Gilgameshish it wasn't even funny. He was one of my favorite characters in Fate and his one appearance in HF was pretty epic but inn UBW he was just a poor excuse of a plot device.

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I'm also factoring that Shirou himself has probably never seen (much less traced) the NPs of Gil, so how can it exist in UBW much less make an accurate copy of it along with the experience and whatnot that accompanies the sword?
He copied a bunch of Gilgamesh' swords outside UBW which automatically put them inside the RM ready to use, and had also seen a load of swords Archer had used. To be honest Shirou couldn't have been tracing all of Gilgamesh' weapons in UBW, because most of them weren't swords, and he'd have to use thrice as much Prana to reproduce them. He probably limited himself to using weapons he had already seen, that were swords. Though of course Nasu never deigned to elaborate.

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Even if Shirou himself managed to summon UBW without the help of Emiya, I can safely bet that most if not all the weapons in his arsenal are just hollow swords in which the original can simply slice through like a hot knife through butter.
Don't you mean "knife through hot butter"? Anyway, like I said, he was probably replicating certain weapons. Unless Nasu wrote (don't really remember the scene very well) that he was projecting the exact same weapons he saw (in UBW). If that's the case then yeah, it's total bullshit.

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Doesn't it also cost extra prana to use a broken phantasm? I mean if it were a simple move to execute, why didn't Emiya chain spam them against Berserker? I should add that Emiya used a bow and loaded the broken phantasm as an arrow. Since the bow Emiya has is specific to his class as an Archer (to the extent of my knowledge anyway), where the hell will Shirou get a bow to launch his swords with?
You don't need a bow to use the skill Broken Phantasm. Any Servant could do it, but none would because that would ruin their weapons. Archer was doing it because he could just recreate the weapons. And how do you know what Archer did when he fought Berserker?

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Originally Posted by MonkeyDude View Post
I think the best way to explain how the fight went is how your typical shonen fight usually goes. The big bad has this uber awesome power that should be insurmountable to the hero. Then out of nowhere the hero gains a new power inside of him! The hero then channels this new power along with guts and maybe a hint of stupidity and beats the big bad through sheer will! Hell the Gil/Shirou fight isn't even the largest plot hole that existed in UBW. A certain Emiya still lingering around to give the finishing blow cements the final nail in the WTFness that is UBW.
Well, yeah, Archer still being around was far less believable imo than Shirou beating Gilgamesh. True, UBW requires a lot of "suspension of disbelief". But honestly, unlikely as it seems, it still can be explained if you go on a limb. Nasu just never bothered, probably because he thought it'd ruin the scene if he went into too much detail. Nasu is always careful about what he writes, so unless he is a HUGE EMIYA/Emiya wanker (which he probably is), there's some sort of explanation to find out there.
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Old 2009-12-05, 11:40   Link #1788
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Oh and You say for somone a normal human's movement is like seeing a film in slow motion is a great surprise to see somone charging to him? No. Gil have plenty of time to counterattack and toss Shirou away with spilled guts the instant as he tries such a ridiculously idiotic move.
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Old 2009-12-05, 12:25   Link #1789
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Additionally, Gilgamesh shouldn't even qualify for Archer. If anything, Beserker, Saber, or maybe Lancer. With that in mind, you should remember how deadly he would be in close-quarters. Sadly, it'd probably be safer to fight that Archer from a distance.
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Old 2009-12-05, 13:04   Link #1790
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Yeah. Now imagine an "insane" Gilgamesh as Berserker. We all speculate how powerful would be a serious Gil...now imagine him ragefully ramaging at full power
Contrary to the belief Gil supposedly gone crazy or at least engrossed himself in greif after loosing the elixir of inmmortality. If we berlieve saber's words literally then he actually destroyed his own country soon after. If it's not enough to be counted as a berserker then...

Also he's a damn good class for Saber too.
He can be Lancer also with his agility. He can be Rider with Vimana(or other machine he also should be possessing). And according to few Gil might be able to cast spells too as his good understanding of magic and the statement of "He was the best in everything in his era" suggests. perhaps all those are speculations.We don't know Ea's post-retcon full power yet we actually can't be sure how much he holds back even against Saber.
That's why Gilgamesh is the prime topic of powerlevel discussions
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Old 2009-12-05, 13:08   Link #1791
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Technically, any legendary hero can be any class. The class just augments their natural abilities and changes their noble spirits. Because in reality probably Caster Shiro would be a pretty nasty person to deal with, and his noble spirit most likely would be some ridiculous overpowered reality marble. But the point is hero is not restricted by class, all that changes are their mana capabilities and the powers that are emphasized. Althought it would be hard to see Saber/arturia as a anything but saber/beserker class.
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Old 2009-12-05, 13:47   Link #1792
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Lancer and Rider actually can be pretty possible. Arthur had a named horse and a legandary spear, shield and dirk to use. So it's quite possible for her to become Lancer or Rider...though as Saber (s)he is the easiest to imagine.
And not every hero is good for any class. Actually there aren only a few with such wide palette of abilities. Heracles is one of those, Gilgamesh is likewise. But for Arthuria I can't imagine her as Arcehr or Cu Chunnlain as anything but Berserker or Lancer. Medea also pretty much hard to imagine as a fighter class. Archer is far unskilled to be a Caster...though he's good as Assassin(or Saber if he has much better stats) not just as Archer. Lastly I should mention Iskander who should be maybe even better as Saber and has some documented moments which enables him to be used as Berserker also.
In short most of the Servants not only fit to a certain class though it's still rare for them to fit to almsot every single one.
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Old 2009-12-05, 13:52   Link #1793
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Oh and You say for somone a normal human's movement is like seeing a film in slow motion is a great surprise to see somone charging to him? No. Gil have plenty of time to counterattack and toss Shirou away with spilled guts the instant as he tries such a ridiculously idiotic move.
Too bad for you that Nasu decided it could happen, and it's thus canon fact, then.

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Additionally, Gilgamesh shouldn't even qualify for Archer. If anything, Beserker, Saber, or maybe Lancer. With that in mind, you should remember how deadly he would be in close-quarters. Sadly, it'd probably be safer to fight that Archer from a distance.
Gilgamesh qualifies for Archer because he tosses his weapons like projectiles. Much like Emiya qualifies for Archer... because he tosses his weapons like projectiles. Neither was a "true" archer who used a bow as their primary weapon, though. But

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Yeah. Now imagine an "insane" Gilgamesh as Berserker. We all speculate how powerful would be a serious Gil...now imagine him ragefully ramaging at full power
"Mad Enhancement" would make Gilgamesh stronger, putting him to Saber's [Rin] level or higher as a close-quarters fighter, which is already impressive, but the removal of the ability to think would be a great weakness for him.

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We don't know Ea's post-retcon full power yet we actually can't be sure how much he holds back even against Saber.
That's why Gilgamesh is the prime topic of powerlevel discussions
Max Ea is probably life-wiper class, given its description.

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Technically, any legendary hero can be any class. The class just augments their natural abilities and changes their noble spirits. Because in reality probably Caster Shiro would be a pretty nasty person to deal with, and his noble spirit most likely would be some ridiculous overpowered reality marble. But the point is hero is not restricted by class, all that changes are their mana capabilities and the powers that are emphasized. Althought it would be hard to see Saber/arturia as a anything but saber/beserker class.
That is incorrect. There are minimal requirements in stats and abilities for Servants of each class, and there also seem to be some underlying limitations that cannot be overridden, such as Arturia only being able to be summoned as Saber despite the fact that she could probably fit the bill for Rider as well.
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Old 2009-12-05, 14:08   Link #1794
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LoL. You seemingly lack something. Nasu is a human. He can be wrong. And the story stated before how superhuman the Servants are. And it was stated earlier so it's the base of the things. And the thing Shirou did was contradictory to that. If you force yourself of the denial of Nasu can make errors then I don't have much to say. The way Shirou defeated Gilgamesh was full of plot errors.
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Old 2009-12-05, 19:27   Link #1795
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LoL. You seemingly lack something. Nasu is a human. He can be wrong. And the story stated before how superhuman the Servants are. And it was stated earlier so it's the base of the things. And the thing Shirou did was contradictory to that. If you force yourself of the denial of Nasu can make errors then I don't have much to say. The way Shirou defeated Gilgamesh was full of plot errors.
Yeah, of course I'll believe that Nasu made a mistake even though there is a perfectly plausible explanation, which the sole reason you refuse to acknowledge is out of raw stubbornness.

Keep deluding yourself if you wish. The facts are there. There are no mistakes. The only mistake is viewing the scene through a lens of bias and refusing to stretch your imagination a bit to encompass something that is completely valid.
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Old 2009-12-05, 19:43   Link #1796
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Reasonable? Speed-giving sword which never gets mentioned...perfectly reasonable...yeah.
Do you know how the way of battles and fighting really work? Better physica stats and experiences almost always giving an upper hand. Even with sword-spamming abilities. If someone can react 3-5 times faster than the other then the other pretty much have close to zero chance to surprise that person. Even if the said person holds back.
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Old 2009-12-06, 01:46   Link #1797
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It wasn't actual combat. Just by virtue of being in his Reality Marble, Shirou had a huge advantage. And Shirou can replicate the abilities of a Servant to a small degree.
I think Shion in the Melty Blood manga explained it best. You can upgrade the software (brain), but you can only upgrade the hardware to such a degree. Superhuman seems to be the highest level a human being can achieve, but even that is nowhere near the capabilities of a servant. Hell even Emiya in a near death state could have killed Shirou whenever he wanted.


Quote:
It's never stated what E class represents. Going by the fight between Caster and Rin and how Kuzuki dealt with Rin, peak human is fairly above the E rank. Though Kuzuki is broken. Anyway, Shirou cut off Berserker's arm with Caliburn. He could find something to do the same to Gilgamesh, if he caught him by surprise.
Well to be fair, Kuzuki is a natural assassin, had Caster augmenting his stats, and had the element of surprise as to his combat style. Wasn't Shirou able to project Caliburn due to the Avalon inside him? That's a plausible explanation as to how he was able to project a sword he hasn't seen anywhere but the recesses of his mind.



Quote:
Well, you wanted an explanation, so I gave one. Nasu never mentioning doesn't invalidate it, since there must be one, but Nasu didn't write anything. I just thought one that was possible. Although the scene would be much funnier if Shirou went "Alright, I have to kill him! This is my last chance! It may cost a lot of Prana (but who cares, I'm taking it from Rin), but I have to trace it... a weapon that will certainly hit the heart... *except it never really did except when it was used against its wielder, lol* GAE BOLG!! HEARTSTRIKE!!" *Gae Bolg hits Gilgamesh' arm. His other arm.* "...great, thanks, Lancer." *Gilgamesh Ea's the fuck out of Shirou*
Gae Bolg works on the luck stat and Gil is pretty lucky so...

Quote:
He copied a bunch of Gilgamesh' swords outside UBW which automatically put them inside the RM ready to use, and had also seen a load of swords Archer had used. To be honest Shirou couldn't have been tracing all of Gilgamesh' weapons in UBW, because most of them weren't swords, and he'd have to use thrice as much Prana to reproduce them. He probably limited himself to using weapons he had already seen, that were swords. Though of course Nasu never deigned to elaborate.
I'll buy this, but its rather hard to believe that swords he has never traced would have perfect replicas in his UBW.

Quote:
Don't you mean "knife through hot butter"? Anyway, like I said, he was probably replicating certain weapons. Unless Nasu wrote (don't really remember the scene very well) that he was projecting the exact same weapons he saw (in UBW). If that's the case then yeah, it's total bullshit.
Should be hot knife through butter, but whatever. Well I believe that Gil was matching Shirou's projections with his own outside of his UBW and that his UBW overpowered Gil by creating more weapons than Gil could summon. It rather contradicts the pre-UBW fight of Gil just launching random swords and Shirou projecting them to defend against it, to UBW Shirou somehow overpowering Gil through numerous projections when Gil could have just launched a sword rain. Again this is just info of what I remember from the fight, could be wrong.

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You don't need a bow to use the skill Broken Phantasm. Any Servant could do it, but none would because that would ruin their weapons. Archer was doing it because he could just recreate the weapons. And how do you know what Archer did when he fought Berserker?
Hmm this info I forgot, but it was never stated that Shirou used a Broken Phantasm. You would think a move that gave him the edge would warrant mention in the fight. I was talking about the graveyard fight (in UBW?) when Archer launched a Broken Phantasm to hit Berserker.

Quote:
Well, yeah, Archer still being around was far less believable imo than Shirou beating Gilgamesh. True, UBW requires a lot of "suspension of disbelief". But honestly, unlikely as it seems, it still can be explained if you go on a limb. Nasu just never bothered, probably because he thought it'd ruin the scene if he went into too much detail. Nasu is always careful about what he writes, so unless he is a HUGE EMIYA/Emiya wanker (which he probably is), there's some sort of explanation to find out there.
The author failing to elaborate as to how 'x' scene could have been possible is probably the very definition of a plot hole. Nasu uses intermissions to further detail things that happen behind the scenes and he could have easily used that to explain some things like how Emiya was still alive. He could and should have used it, but he didn't and hence why the plot hole exists. The Gil/Shirou fight is forgivable since the protagonist has to win anyway regardless of how much you have to nerf the superior opponent, but Emiya's survival after taking tons of damage needs to be elaborated. Though I guess he survived for the sake of having that conversation with Rin in the end...
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Old 2009-12-06, 16:32   Link #1798
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Been reading through a lot lately and if I have to give any reason why Shirou could win agains't a servant that has a inferior skill in noble phantasm usage (compared to other servants) it would be his self determination. To be more precisely his determination gives him some sort of self sugestion (see third personality Ryougi Shiki) that allows him to fight beyond his human limitations. Add his sword reading abilities to this and you basically get a pretty decent fighter. Gil at the final fight obviously underestimated this (+ his reality marble), and with Shirou having the advantage in sword speed + all of the above, his defeat really isn't that hard spell right? I doubt Nasu would just throw all the so called "rules" just give the golden boy a spanking.
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Old 2009-12-06, 16:50   Link #1799
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But you disregard the huge rift between a mere human and a Servant in terms of fighting abilities. Shirou has no way to win by simply that. The only exception if he uses for example Overedge or something similar to confuse Gil,but he didn't. He was just marching forward like he's capable to fight with him on par. Gil would have plenty of way even there to kill Shirou and even if he still keeps up his arrogant reason to defeat Shirou's projections there's no way he can be beaten by Shirou in melee. Determined or not a superhuman still remains a superhuman who has thousands of ways to defeat the mere human opposing him. With the abilities of Servants there's no way Shirou can beat Gil in a fight...the only exception if he does surprise him with a battle technique(Overedge...), but he didn't even have a good plan there.

Nasu did a quite writing error in that fight.
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Old 2009-12-06, 20:41   Link #1800
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The swords swing by their fucking selves. Is that such a goddamn hard concept to grasp?
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