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Old 2004-08-04, 01:43   Link #81
RunningTARGET
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Though seeying Young females of 14 years or younger naked in anime is rather disturbing, its only art and not real, so it doesnt bother me as much.

But if its real then it is ilegal regardless of which country your from, that is if its not of documentory purposes. eg medical.

If there is no sex then I dont consider it soft core, then againg some sex scences in movies may only be considered M 15+ here, like some other places with similar ratings.

Anyway peoples view of soft core is always different depending on where the're been brought up, like some of you's have stated before hand.
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Old 2004-08-04, 08:59   Link #82
Yogo_Pogo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RunningTARGET
Though seeing Young females of 14 years or younger naked in anime is rather disturbing, its only art and not real, so it doesnít bother me as much.
It should, because art is a way of showing what you think of the world. If you tolerate something in a movie you may as well tolerate it in the real life. Since there are not just adult pervert that watch anime, the fan service will influence younger audience. If you always show naked underage girl, they will tolerate it since they are always exposed to it. Then it will be accepted and the woman will again suffer and the man will again get satisfied without doing anything. The pedophile will not have to hide themselves because young girls will strip (or do other things) since it is tolerated for them to do so. You always must see the danger of too much tolerance, because it is dangerous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthriel
There is a thing called tolerance. ^^;;;
In the western world, women who show their "private parts" are doing so deliberately. In the western society, you can do almost everything, as long as you don't harm another person in the process. And as far as I am concerned, that's a good thing. What do you intend to do anyway? Strip women of their right to show their "private parts"?
It's certainly a bad thing if a woman thinks she is nothing but a sexual object, however, some seem to don't mind that. >__<
I donít think it is very what a woman want to do. Some girl donít seems to mind if they are consider like objects because some idiots (men or worst, some brainwashed women) will them they arenít even if itís not true.
They do strip, but they do it for money. Who provides money? Men. Who get better salaries? Men. Who always got what they want? Men. Who is a slave of men? Women. Who will never have what they want on tv because they donít have enough money power? Women. Who have to take care of the kids when the father is gone? Women. Who will have less chance to have a next man in her life because she takes care of their kids? Women. Who always runs from their responsibilities? Men. Who will always get away with it? Men. Iíll stop here because Iím getting mad again.
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Old 2004-08-04, 17:15   Link #83
Anthriel
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Quote:
I donít think it is very what a woman want to do. Some girl donít seems to mind if they are consider like objects because some idiots (men or worst, some brainwashed women) will them they arenít even if itís not true. They do strip, but they do it for money. Who provides money? Men. Who get better salaries? Men.
There is a difference between dressing provocatively or stripping and perceiving oneself as a sexual object. There are male strippers as well, if the demand for them would be as high as for female strippers, there would be about the same amount of them.
Men do get better salaries, just like Whites get better salaries than Blacks, it's a bad thing and most western states try to act against it. For example, in Germany, when a public job or a promotion could go to a man or a woman, both equally skilled, the woman will be preferred

Quote:
Who always got what they want? Men. Who is a slave of men? Women.
In the western world, women are not slaves to men, just like Blacks are not slaves to Whites.
Quote:
Who will never have what they want on tv because they donít have enough money power? Women.
There are quite a lot shows aimed at women as well, however, women don't have the same interests as men have. There is equivalent to the Playboy, it just doesn't sell as well. If women would somehow become more interested in seeing naked men, more shows of that kind would be produced.

Quote:
Who have to take care of the kids when the father is gone? Women. Who will have less chance to have a next man in her life because she takes care of their kids? Women. Who always runs from their responsibilities? Men. Who will always get away with it? Men.
In German, child custody translates to Sorgerecht, literally "The right to care (for the children)" A right women are granted more often than men. I know some father who would like to care for their children, but aren't allowed to. Thus it wouldn't call that a disadvantage of women, rather an advantage, actually.

In general, I do agree women are discriminated against, however, it think sexism slowly vanishes. It used to be worse and it will get better with time. However, even now, woman do have some advantages. It could respond to your post with something like:
Who will get beaten up by school bullies? Boys. Who always gets child custody? Women. Who can get advantages by sleeping with their boss? Women. Who has to pay at restaraunts? Men.

You could respond with something like:
Who can get raped? Women. Who is always sexually harrased? Women.
And so on.

In general, I agree women are discriminated against and are disadvanteged more than men, but the society as a whole gets more and more tolerant. Actually, I don't know even one chauvinist and where I live, everyone who behaves chauvinistic is looked down upon.
In fact, here in Germany, men have more obvious disadvantages than women. Apart from the fact you live longer and aren't as prone to diseases, in Germany, you don't have to worry about being recruted by the army. As a man, you have to serve one year (or decline, and take a social job for one year instead), even though Germany is pacifistic. (Though our army of conscripts couldn't beat professional soldiers anyway).
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Old 2004-08-05, 22:40   Link #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yogo_Pogo
It should, because art is a way of showing what you think of the world. If you tolerate something in a movie you may as well tolerate it in the real life. Since there are not just adult pervert that watch anime, the fan service will influence younger audience. If you always show naked underage girl, they will tolerate it since they are always exposed to it. Then it will be accepted and the woman will again suffer and the man will again get satisfied without doing anything. The pedophile will not have to hide themselves because young girls will strip (or do other things) since it is tolerated for them to do so. You always must see the danger of too much tolerance, because it is dangerous.
The thing is, you're once again really reaching in an attempt to connect dots. The problem is the crime - stay focused on that. You are assuming that tolerating something in fiction makes you more likely to tolerate it in real life, and you are once again assuming that it will lead to an increase in crime. I don't know why or how you can make those leaps of thinking - there's just no conclusive evidence to back it up, as far as I am aware. For every example of someone who committed a crime through exposure, there's probably an equal and opposite example of someone who committed a crime out of curiousity without exposure. Criminal behaviour is caused by a lot of factors, many of which are psychological. If you truly want to stop crimes against women, you've got to look past the surface, and look at the psychological issues that cause people to cross the line. Here's my belief and contention: Most guys don't commit violence against women, no matter how much they are exposed to fanservice or even porn.

I don't know what you have against guys, but I will tell you directly: as a guy, you are insulting my intelligence and ability to make moral judgements. I'm not just an animal that responds to visual stimuli and acts accordingly; I have a brain, I have ethics and morals, and I have the power to make my own choices. You are also insulting other women - they also have brains, ethics, morals, and the power to make their own choices - they are not forced to simply do whatever immoral or illegal thing a guy tells them to do; if they are, it is a crime punishable by law.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Yogo_Pogo
I donít think it is very what a woman want to do. Some girl donít seems to mind if they are consider like objects because some idiots (men or worst, some brainwashed women) will them they arenít even if itís not true.
They do strip, but they do it for money. Who provides money? Men. Who get better salaries? Men. Who always got what they want? Men. Who is a slave of men? Women. Who will never have what they want on tv because they donít have enough money power? Women. Who have to take care of the kids when the father is gone? Women. Who will have less chance to have a next man in her life because she takes care of their kids? Women. Who always runs from their responsibilities? Men. Who will always get away with it? Men. Iíll stop here because Iím getting mad again.
I'm afraid that I do not generally subscribe to the victim theory in this day, age, and culture. When gender-based discrimination occurs, it should be exposed and settled through the existing legal channels. I suppose you would say that it's easy for me to say that, since I'm a guy, but what else can I do? If I could apologize for the inequalities of the past, I would... but all we can do now is look to the present and the future. If you truly want to be equal, then be equal. The truest form of empowerment is grabbing hold of yourself and doing something with your life. That's true equally for everyone around the world; no matter what your culture, there are always ways for people seeking to make a difference to step up to the plate.

Once again, I apologize if I am coming across in an offensive way; that is not my intent. I just want you to know clearly that there are guys out there who are not out to oppress women and set them back in life. If you're going to throw us all out because we are visual creatures attracted to women's bodies, then you should take it up with God, or evolution, or whatever you believe brought us here in the first place. As I said, though, we're not just animals; we are more than capable of moving past the physical, and interacting with people on a much higher level - together, we as a society have done great things. That's what makes us different from animals. So don't give up on all men yet; we are, after all, your number one fans.
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Old 2004-08-05, 23:34   Link #85
Ragnarok6502
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ive gotten to were it doesnt bother me at all cuz i realize its anime and its all fake so it doesnt meen anything exept for if u watch a seartain show for example Bible Black which is ment to watch for that sorta thing but everything else is ment to watch for the biger pic. than seeing an occational ass or cleavage.
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Old 2004-08-05, 23:50   Link #86
mememe
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Quote:
It should, because art is a way of showing what you think of the world. If you tolerate something in a movie you may as well tolerate it in the real life. Since there are not just adult pervert that watch anime, the fan service will influence younger audience. If you always show naked underage girl, they will tolerate it since they are always exposed to it. Then it will be accepted and the woman will again suffer and the man will again get satisfied without doing anything. The pedophile will not have to hide themselves because young girls will strip (or do other things) since it is tolerated for them to do so. You always must see the danger of too much tolerance, because it is dangerous.
I think it depends on the context u cannot go as so far as saying all naked pictures all artworks or anime of unage people is bad and makes people want to do criminal stuff. Wat about your parents who have photos of u as a child in the bath all running around naked in the backyard would that make them evil.

Like I said it depends on the context if the person is naked because of someone elses perverted enoyment thats bad but if they're naked cause of maybe a bath or some other reason and it isn't beening shown as sexual then thats alright (sorry I have the feeling I am not explaining this very well).

U cannot ban nakedness just because some ppl take it wrongly, it would be a restriction on the person who wants to be naked!

On another topic men are not BAD!
I will say it proudly I LIKE MEN!
99% of men are good they are ppls brothers, fathers, boyfriends men are not criminals also your missing more then half the race here i'm sure they're women out there who are pedophoiles women who would take advantage of men or worse use the law to to bend them to there will i'm sure some women have threatened men with untrue lawful action to get them to a higher place in the world!

Quote:
Who have to take care of the kids when the father is gone? Women. Who will have less chance to have a next man in her life because she takes care of their kids? Women.
Also I know a women with two teenage kids who married a successful business man after going out for 8 years (so he raised the kids as his own) who is 10 years her junior so how does that fit in with your male bashing.

Quote:
If I could apologize for the inequalities of the past, I would...
Don't it would be unfair to u. It is sad that there are laws needed to protect women and other races but that is the way it is.
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Old 2004-08-06, 14:11   Link #87
Yogo_Pogo
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I gave up faith in mankind a long time ago.
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Old 2004-08-06, 17:20   Link #88
Anthriel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yogo_Pogo
I gave up faith in mankind a long time ago.
lol, to each his own ... though, if you meant what I suppose you meant, this statement makes you a sexist ... and a hypocrite. ^^
By the way, it's funny, I've met more sexist women than sexist men.
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Last edited by Anthriel; 2004-08-06 at 17:39.
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Old 2004-08-06, 18:47   Link #89
relentlessflame
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yogo_Pogo
I gave up faith in mankind a long time ago.
Fitting enough, given your signature image. I'm not sure if you actually speak French or not but, c'est toujours ceux qui ont les pires intentions qui nous causent le plus mal. Ne pas croire en ceux qui vous veulent du bien n'offre qu'une monde de tristesse. Mieux vaut choisir une vie pleine de joie et de surprises, qu'une vie en attente de peine et de souffrances. But that's just my take on the matter. I still sincerely wish you all the best; it's up to you whether or not you believe my intentions are truly good or evil.
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Old 2004-08-06, 21:42   Link #90
StoneColdCrazy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame
Fitting enough, given your signature image. I'm not sure if you actually speak French or not but, c'est toujours ceux qui ont les pires intentions qui nous causent le plus mal. Ne pas croire en ceux qui vous veulent du bien n'offre qu'une monde de tristesse. Mieux vaut choisir une vie pleine de joie et de surprises, qu'une vie en attente de peine et de souffrances. But that's just my take on the matter. I still sincerely wish you all the best; it's up to you whether or not you believe my intentions are truly good or evil.
Yogo has been pretty anti-male elsewhere on the forum too, I don't think you'll get the benefit of the doubt.

Care to translate for the rest of us?

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Old 2004-08-07, 00:09   Link #91
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Originally Posted by StoneColdCrazy
Yogo has been pretty anti-male elsewhere on the forum too, I don't think you'll get the benefit of the doubt.
Yeah, I figured as much... anyway, translation. It was in response to the signature image which reads "Those who wish you well are the ones with the worst intentions". My response was that "it's always those who have the worst intentions that do the most harm. Not trusting those who wish you well brings only sadness. It's better to choose a life full of joy and surprises than a life waiting for hurt and suffering."

In any case, I just wanted thank everyone for their responses so far. This has been a very interesting and insightful discussion, and if anyone has any more thoughts, please feel free to add your say!
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Old 2004-08-07, 01:10   Link #92
mememe
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Yogo_Pogo
GROW UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
you'd better have a really good reason for saying that and none of this weak he promised and broke my heart bullshit!
How old are u anyway I'd hope u'd be old enough to know wat you're talking about and not a preteen or a teenager cause not enough experience in the world or reality to have such convictions.

I just..........what i'm trying to say is tell us why u have given up and i hope its not because of the growing trends of male bashing that has lead u to believe this.

(for those who don't know wat male bashing is, it is saying a man is bad or is criminal because of his gender.)
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Old 2004-08-07, 01:43   Link #93
Yuun
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Ho!!!

Hi, Yogo Pogo~ It has been quite sometime since our last conversations?? Hahaha... come on guys, Yogo Pogo is not exactly anti-male you know? She just want her female rights thats all.

Ahem... i wouldn't want to debate this issue anymore since i've already did it before and almost everywhere in this forum, not to mention that Yogo Pogo is a great future lawyer ^_^

Anyway, this is still a popular issue huh? Despite this thread has been inactive for so long, haa~

To be honest, I can't agree more than the opinian that all of you have present.
Mememe-san, haha... you don't need to be that harsh on Yogo Pogo though... ^_^ Yogo Pogo has her own opinian for guys, and i believe that Yogo Pogo should still remembered what i've mention the last time we debate??

In case you forgot, let me mention this again. Ahem~ Female had played very important role in all over this world. They're great Politician, Bussiness woman, Mother, and etc. Not to mention that war starts may because of woman too ^_^
The show "Troy" for an example.

Hehehe~ And you know what Yogo Pogo?? You're really a great girl, and i believe you'll be successful in the future. People have their opinians and naturally they'll defend their opinian till the very last and sometimes there's no winner at all cause all of opinian is acceptable.

Oh by the way, yogo pogo? Your...how to say ar... hmm... well let's put it in this way, You shouldn't give out your faith for human kind.
I agree that there's only 1 good person out of 1000 people. But you should always see your cup half full. Eventhough there's only one person, he/she can make all the differences.

Take the bible story for example, Genesis, Chapter 5 (From Adam to Noah) verse 28 onwards. Pay attention on chapter 6 (The Flood) verse 8 -13. The stories about Noah. For those who are not Christian, try looking into your own religion for answers.

Hehehe~ I love you Yogo Pogo (Like a little sister), too bad we are at the different world. I just wish i can have a game of bowling to clear things up with you, but then again who knows? you Might find the your Mr.right and change??

Ganbatte... As long as Human still own their feelings, as long as there's faith in a human heart. ^_^
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Old 2004-08-07, 16:02   Link #94
Yogo_Pogo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthriel
lol, to each his own ... though, if you meant what I suppose you meant, this statement makes you a sexist ... and a hypocrite. ^^
Hypocrite!?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthriel
By the way, it's funny, I've met more sexist women than sexist men.
Maybe itís because the women got a reason to be sexist. If men think they have a good life they will not complain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame
Fitting enough, given your signature image. I'm not sure if you actually speak French or not but, c'est toujours ceux qui ont les pires intentions qui nous causent le plus mal. Ne pas croire en ceux qui vous veulent du bien n'offre qu'un monde de tristesse. Mieux vaut choisir une vie pleine de joie et de surprises, qu'une vie en attente de peine et de souffrances. But that's just my take on the matter. I still sincerely wish you all the best; it's up to you whether or not you believe my intentions are truly good or evil.
French is my mother tongue. Se mťfier des gens peut nous ťviter beaucoup díennui. Si une personne te voulait du mal, tu líaura vu venir. Si les intentions díune personne sont bonnes tu pourras la cataloguer dans les exceptions ŗ la rŤgle. Hehehe try to understand that you english people !!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mememe
Yogo_Pogo
GROW UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
you'd better have a really good reason for saying that and none of this weak he promised and broke my heart bullshit!
How old are u anyway I'd hope u'd be old enough to know wat you're talking about and not a preteen or a teenager cause not enough experience in the world or reality to have such convictions.

I just..........what i'm trying to say is tell us why u have given up and i hope its not because of the growing trends of male bashing that has lead u to believe this.

(for those who don't know wat male bashing is, it is saying a man is bad or is criminal because of his gender.)
I think I never said any ďhe promised and broke my heart bullshitĒ, but Ö I do always get carried away when talking about injustice, violence and lies. I donít believe that someone has to be very old to notice the ugliness of our world. By the way Iím 20. The reasons to lose faith in the world differ with people. For some it will take the death of a loving one, for others it can be a lost battle against injustice. You can, as a child, have faith and lose it by living hard things, watching the behaviour of people around you, reading you history book at school or watching the news on TV. For me I donít really know. The only thing you could do to understand my hatred is to be in my head.
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Old 2004-08-07, 17:08   Link #95
Anthriel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yogo_Pogo
Hypocrite!?
You hate discrimination, but you discriminate against men.

Quote:
Maybe itís because the women got a reason to be sexist. If men think they have a good life they will not complain.
Even then it's wrong. Women should know that better than men, as they suffer more from sexism.
Sexism is just as wrong as racism, it's idiotic to assume someone is bad with computers, just because she is female, but it's just as bad to assume someone is aggressive, just because he is male.

I hate men who treat women poorly, but I hate women, who make all men responsible for something few men do, just as much.
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Old 2004-08-07, 18:00   Link #96
Yogo_Pogo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthriel
You hate discrimination, but you discriminate against men.
ouch! i think you're right about that
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Old 2004-08-07, 18:36   Link #97
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The following post has been rated OT for I'm sorry for steering this topic off-course...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yogo_Pogo
Se mťfier des gens peut nous ťviter beaucoup díennui. Si une personne te voulait du mal, tu líaura vu venir. Si les intentions díune personne sont bonnes tu pourras la cataloguer dans les exceptions ŗ la rŤgle. Hehehe try to understand that you english people !!
You're so cruel! Since I'm a nice guy, I'll translate it for everyone (or rather, transliterate).

Distrust can save us a lot of worries. If someone has bad intentions, you can see it coming. If someone truly has good intentions, you can consider it an exception to the rule.

I actually do know what you're saying, because I have known people who have chosen to live their lives that way. In fact, the person I used to work for tried very hard to convince me to believe the same thing, but I resisted and even quit my job to stand up for what I believe in. So, yeah, I take this very seriously.

I have deliberatly chosen to live my life trusting others. I know that there are many people who have bad intentions, and I realize that I have and am continuing to set myself up for hurt and pain... but I still deliberately choose to live this way. If it's ignorance, it's because I choose to be ignorant. If it's naivety, it's because I choose to be naive. To me, I guess, living a life of mistrust seems like such a sad and depressing way of looking at the world, and I just can't bring myself to doing it, no matter how hard I try. Sure, it'll save you from heartache, but it might also shield you from experiencing many of the joys of human relationships. Plus, where does this mistrust stop? How can you ever get close to anyone if you're always trying to protect yourself from being hurt? A large part of being human is hurting and being hurt by others, because it's through that process that we learn how to be better people. Isn't it somewhat selfish to be only looking out for your own best interests all the time?

As I mentioned in another thread, I believe love is not a feeling, but a choice. I think trust is the same way. The thing about both love and trust is that, deep down, nobody really deserves it. I mean, we are all humans after all; we all make mistakes. I think it would be conceited and arrogant of me to think that I alone deserve to be loved and trusted; to pretend that I don't want love or trust from others would be a bald-faced lie. If I want people to trust me, I need to show them what I mean by trust; I need to be the kind of person that is worthy of those actions. I can't do that by shutting everyone else out of my life in fear that I might get hurt. If I'm going to get hurt in this life, forgive the clichť but, bring it on! Life is a gift, and I'm not going to let it go to waste!

Anyway, I sincerely apologize once again for guiding this thread severely off-course. I will try to think of some way of bringing back on track...
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Old 2004-08-07, 22:29   Link #98
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I don't think male or female really factors into it.... To me it's more about censorship. A show can be racist, sexist, soft porn, or whatever. It's all fine by me. If I don't want to watch it then I'll watch something else, like the guy's sister in the original post.

What I don't want is for someone else to decide for me what is or is not appropriate. Deciding that something is pornography or otherwise "offensive" material is highly subjective and depends on your unique point of view. Someone can decide insulting a politition is offensive or that even DISCUSSING race issues is racist. I mean, some people find art with naked figures offensive (does anyone remember the Simpson's ep where Marge gets TV violence banned but then they cover up Michelangelo's David?)

Not that anime is necessarily art, but I'm saying that if you start censoring than you ALWAYS lose the good with the bad, and it is NOT worth it.
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Old 2004-08-07, 22:41   Link #99
StoneColdCrazy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psi
I don't think male or female really factors into it.... To me it's more about censorship. A show can be racist, sexist, soft porn, or whatever. It's all fine by me. If I don't want to watch it then I'll watch something else, like the guy's sister in the original post.

What I don't want is for someone else to decide for me what is or is not appropriate. Deciding that something is pornography or otherwise "offensive" material is highly subjective and depends on your unique point of view. Someone can decide insulting a politition is offensive or that even DISCUSSING race issues is racist. I mean, some people find art with naked figures offensive (does anyone remember the Simpson's ep where Marge gets TV violence banned but then they cover up Michelangelo's David?)

Not that anime is necessarily art, but I'm saying that if you start censoring than you ALWAYS lose the good with the bad, and it is NOT worth it.
Personally, I think this is the definitive view on the subject.

SCC
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Old 2004-08-08, 12:10   Link #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StoneColdCrazy
Personally, I think this is the definitive view on the subject.
I agree completely. Well said, Psi. How you feel about this topic is really a matter of personal ethics and morals, and attempts to legislate morality always result in tragedy. As with everything else, everyone should make their own decisions about what is right and wrong for them.

Although I started this topic with the goal of hearing other peoples' opinion on the matter, I think it would be foolish to expect that there would be one common opinion on the matter. Sure enough, views expressed have covered the full spectrum of opinions. That being said, I think that the opportunity to express our opinion and hear the opinions of others helps us to better understand our own personal beliefs and the reasons why we believe them. In that way, I think this thread was a huge success, and I want to again thank everyone who has participated so far. (Please keep those opinions coming!)

So, what's my opinion now, after going this far in the thread? Well, I guess I don't think that that the topic question has a straight and simple answer. And even if it did, I'm no longer convinced that the label really matters at all. In the beginning, I was a bit shocked to hear my sister use that word in this context because I had never thought about it that way before. But, after going through this thread, I find myself thinking... so what? I watch the shows I like, and if I find the content offensive, I'll skip the parts I don't like or turn it off (as Psi said). Ultimately, I am the only person who can decide what is and isn't good for me to watch; if I make the wrong choices, I will have to deal with the consequences. I suppose it is because of my religious upbringing that I still have some hang-ups about the word "porn", and it's implications; that's something I'll have to face and deal with in my own way -- that's what growing up is all about.
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