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Old 2009-12-07, 02:40   Link #1841
Mentar
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Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates View Post
And? Its great for her that she found love, and if you read what I wrote before that I acknowledged that she had opened up to a new set of feelings. "The mummy hunter became the mummy." But it still seems so strange to me. With the way she worded her experience with guys, I didn't get that she wanted guys to want her for her beauty. I never saw that.
It's the other way round. She said in ep10 that she was never trying to flaunt her assets, and that she never cared for guys falling for her [beauty, brains, power etc.] head over heels. But now she found someone she wanted, and he's not budging (which certainly is a major part of his appeal for her).

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It just looked like that she preferred the chase to the conquest, and took any chance to gt a piece. You could even say its part of her pride that she would even say she'd "rather him be doing the chasing."(Heh. Isn't that rather cliche?) It feels to me like a contradiction.
So either the story is contradictory or you have simply been flat-out wrong with your assessment. Guess what it is. Rewatch the 3 girls' scene on the festival and you will know.

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All those times of taking up the opportunity and she never gets called on it and its brushed off as comical. Its annoying.
That's Natsuru's "fault", then.

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I'll say it again, do you really find it okay to just have someone do things against your will or without your consent? That's what she does, a lot. Lots of other character I would hear they being called a slut for this, or clingy. Frankly, that was what got on my nerves, nobody cites her lack of tact at all. Seriously, if I kiss someone in their sleep, or just on the spot and I don't know them, I'd expect someone to slap me. I wouldn't just do that, and I appreciate people who are affectionate, and I myself am an affectionate person.
Look, it's not really hard to turn your head away when you're kissed. French kissing without implicit consent is literally impossible. Whenever Shizuku came on to him, he didn't really resist, and afterwards, he didn't complain or chew her out. So in MY reading, he's susceptible for that. And if I were Shizuku, until he draws a line and says "no, stop it here", I'd forge on too. (That is, my more grown-up me. My younger me did not, and in hindsight, I think it cost me)
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Old 2009-12-07, 02:59   Link #1842
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Shizuku rejected Natsuru's "advances" there especially because she knew it was Kaede's sheme and as prideful as she is she didn't want to play along with it. And even after that she somehow minded to miss such a great opportunity.

Ialso feel it unjustified that while Shizuku always suceeds Akane's plans always shutted down. Mikoto is a late comer so she's out of picture. But Akane should have also her moments with Natsuru.
I mean she's also trying hard despite her clumsiness and shyness. Maybe even harder than Shizuku. But so far either Natsuru was dense like hell or something happened to make her moves fail.
It isn't realism as the luck(or anime's director?) always favors one character's moves while the other always fails. In reality someone shouldn't be always lucky.
(not to mention Natsuru-level dense people shouldn't exist in the real world making the debate about realism already meaningless)
I just want to see what will happen as Akane suceeds one of her moves...
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Old 2009-12-07, 03:15   Link #1843
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The difference is that Akane stops at the last moment, waiting for Natsuru to actively do something. And "hey, you kissed others *pout* kiss me too!" isn't going to cut the mustard for someone as hardwired and thick as Natsuru. That _is_ realism.

Had she pulled a Shizuku on him and actively kissed him, she might have gotten what she was looking for. Now, I understand that it's not in-character for her to do it (and it's part of her personal appeal), but where would the realism have been if Natsuru had suddenly actively done it?
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Old 2009-12-07, 03:22   Link #1844
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
The difference is that Akane stops at the last moment, waiting for Natsuru to actively do something. And "hey, you kissed others *pout* kiss me too!" isn't going to cut the mustard for someone as hardwired and thick as Natsuru. That _is_ realism.

Had she pulled a Shizuku on him and actively kissed him, she might have gotten what she was looking for. Now, I understand that it's not in-character for her to do it (and it's part of her personal appeal), but where would the realism have been if Natsuru had suddenly actively done it?
Plus, I think Akane also approves Shizuku as the only other suitor for Natsuru. She doesn't mind sharing considering it only brings her one step closer to Natsuru. I knew milk would have come out of my nose if I was drinking such during the puckered-up Akane scene who wanted to have a taste of that fabled indirect-kiss that Natsuru left on Shizuku's pinkish lips.

*nose bleed*
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Old 2009-12-07, 04:09   Link #1845
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Probably _the_ key element of a tsundere is a strong discrepancy between what a character feels, says and does, leading to alot of inner tension.
Not really. Thats why I said old tsundere rather than the new archetype. In fact old type tsundere's are much less keen on hiding their feelings from the love interest.

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In particular, a development of initially tsuntsun (cold/mean) behavior which later turns into deredere (warm/kind) one. Also, tsunderes are generally susceptible to displays of suppressed emotion like heavy blushing and occasional outbursts of violence.
Not completely true again, I haven't seen any of the classic tsundere's blush hard. Thats what the new moe type does. The occasional outburst did happen though.

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Shizuku doesn't fill this bill at all. She is very much at ease with her emotions, and very honestly and openly deals with them in the few scenes when she feels them to be out of synch (e.g. her self-reflection on feeling jealous in ep7 or a potentially missed chance in ep10). Also, she is completely in control of her behavior. And except for a gradual development from toyfriend to boyfriend, there are no major jumps from tsun to dere.
Its the way you treat her teasing behavior. I believe that she like old tsundere's lack of clearer self-expression. The teasing and quite open behavior also can turn into mask. Because when you often say you love someone the addressate just do not know if you are serious or just playing things. In fact flirt behaviors was the major 'mask' (or rather inability to express properly) of the old tsundere's.

It was not an aggression like with new moe type, but rather a flirt that was hiding things.

Quite similar to Horo from Spice and Wolf - flirt allows you to escape complete honesty, which only happens in a really emotional moments for such characters.

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Again, a certain resemblance yes, but I don't think I'd call them similar. Both are professional at what they're doing, but Sheryl is deeply riddled with self-doubts which show when she overcompensates her bossiness in dealing with others. Sheryl also has major problems dealing with her issues. Shizuku's confidence is more rooted and solid, and she tackles her (fewer) issues head-on by herself. So, one could argue that Sheryl is more "down-to-earth" realistic and rounded, but she's less amusing and a bit more exasperating and needy at times.
Well, Sheryl is more problematic than Shisuku, but so is Hitagi too. Neither Sheryl nor Hitagi are not neraly as close to the problems that Asuka from Evangelion has (I am talking about Sohryu not Shikinami Asuka) but they both have quite a few number of those.

In regards to Shizuku she is much more healthier than those, quite similar to Madoka, who only held herself back only because her best friend was in love with her love interest (it did not stop her from flirting with him quite openly though).

What Shizuku has - her flirting was increased in aggression compared to Madoka, but thats the matter of times. In 80's Madoka's flirt was also considered to be very aggressive, even if when we compare it now with Shizuku's flirt it looks quite innocent.

But I do find a much more similarities between the archetypes we discuss rather than differences. The most obvious differences come from the differences of times rather than from the differences of characters. Thats why I believe that Hiatgi and Shizuku archetypes are the modernized version of the old (classic) tsundere archetypes.

1) Capable and confident, in a cool/calm way (Madoka, after the time-skip Hayase, Sheryl, before her downfall and after she finds her purpose again)
2) Playful/flirtatious (Madoka, Sheryl)
3) Open and honest about their feelings, and acting on them (this is a matter of definition of flirt, because over excessive honesty looks like a flirt thus can also hide ones feelings as it confuses your love interest if you are serious or just playing, feelings that Lawrence, Araragi and Natsuru are quite familiar with. Sheryl and Madoka played a flirt often as well).
4) Overall kind disposition (devious streaks are welcome though) - I do not really understand this part of definition of a character. Looks very vague to me.

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It's the other way round. She said in ep10 that she was never trying to flaunt her assets, and that she never cared for guys falling for her [beauty, brains, power etc.] head over heels. But now she found someone she wanted, and he's not budging (which certainly is a major part of his appeal for her).
I had the same impression She never really cared about guys and never really tried to to make them like her. Part of it because she like Asuka from NGE is quite used to males attention to begin with and is not afraid to use it for her own advance.

It doenst make her a shallow attention whore as some here like to portray her. She did not care if everyone adored her or not (differently from Asuka but again Asuka lacked self confidence because she always felt she was unworthy to exist to begin) it only started to matter when she met someone whom she started to get attracted to.

Now the question is if she got attracted to Natsuru because he was not responding to her, or his unresponsiveness just fueled her interest further. I believe it was second and she would not care if the guy who she has no interest in, would not pay attention to her.
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Old 2009-12-07, 05:47   Link #1846
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I'm almost positive this has been asked several (maybe many more times in this thread, but is there a link to english translations of the light novels? Maybe even summaries? Because, from what I can tell, the story is much deeper then a typical 14-24 episode anime and the manga isn't much farther ahead (last I saw, it was behind the anime).

That and those covers really leave alot to the imagination. Thanks in advance.
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Old 2009-12-07, 05:48   Link #1847
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I personally feel it has nothing to do with the fact that Natsuru shows no interest or is unresponsive to her advances that makes her attracted to her... Frankly such a shallow reason really condescends a character....

I had always though the initial point of attraction was the fact that he stopped Akane from shooting her and finishing her off during their first battle. I thought she took an interest in him after he told her he thought that you'd die if you shot a kampfer, that's the point where she found an interest in him and by enrolling him in the girl's side and watching from the distance served to deepen that interest into a romantic one. Personally I feel it's not based on the fact that he's unresponsive to her seductive advances but more she was already interested in him after the fight.
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Old 2009-12-07, 05:53   Link #1848
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hi its me View Post
I'm almost positive this has been asked several (maybe many more times in this thread, but is there a link to english translations of the light novels? Maybe even summaries? Because, from what I can tell, the story is much deeper then a typical 14-24 episode anime and the manga isn't much farther ahead (last I saw, it was behind the anime).

That and those covers really leave alot to the imagination. Thanks in advance.
Sorry to say this, everyone that I ask to translate the novel except Stix resign immediately after they ask: what media? and I answer: Novel


but you can find summary of vol 10 in manga thread by hellraiser-bro, and since this is anime thread, you must ask about it in manga thread. See you there
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Old 2009-12-07, 08:08   Link #1849
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What I'm looking forward to is how Natsuru will react next episode

I mean - based on the animation he obviously "came to" after Shizuku's kiss, but before he fondled Shizuku's bare breast and whatever they did while we were shown the animals. He obviously was still confused and in a daze the next day, but when Shizuku asked him if he was feeling alright again, he shrieked up eyes wide in shock.

My expection: He will have remembered the scene. And it will be extremely interesting to see how he will deal with it... whether he remembers that Kaede made him do it... and why Shizuku put his lights out. Because if he does remember, it might

1) put a real dent into the angel face of Kaede in his mind

2) make him aware that just maybe Kaichou _does_ have feelings for him after all.
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Old 2009-12-07, 08:35   Link #1850
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
What I'm looking forward to is how Natsuru will react next episode

I mean - based on the animation he obviously "came to" after Shizuku's kiss, but before he fondled Shizuku's bare breast and whatever they did while we were shown the animals. He obviously was still confused and in a daze the next day, but when Shizuku asked him if he was feeling alright again, he shrieked up eyes wide in shock.

My expectation: He will have remembered the scene. And it will be extremely interesting to see how he will deal with it... whether he remembers that Kaede made him do it... and why Shizuku put his lights out. Because if he does remember, it might

1) put a real dent into the angel face of Kaede in his mind

2) make him aware that just maybe Kaichou _does_ have feelings for him after all.
interesting....but to washoff Kaede-Hypno-suggestion inside his brain isn't so easy. Kaede can brainwashim again to reset his memories to the time when they first meet in the street (episode 1).
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Old 2009-12-07, 09:15   Link #1851
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Im hoping that Natsu is able to break Sakura's mind control by sheer will. Therefore showing that hes not just a pawn. However im wondering what motivation he would have to have to break her mind control and will he still have his memories if and when it happens?

I think this episode will be very important for Natsu character. Im thinking seeing all his friends get the crap kicked out of them will be the breaking moment and maybe Shizuku as well.
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Old 2009-12-07, 09:26   Link #1852
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Im hoping that Natsu is able to break Sakura's mind control by sheer will. Therefore showing that hes not just a pawn. However im wondering what motivation he would have to have to break her mind control and will he still have his memories if and when it happens?

I think this episode will be very important for Natsu character. Im thinking seeing all his friends get the crap kicked out of them will be the breaking moment and maybe Shizuku as well.
May be Shizuku defeat or Akane's death will give him a good shock to come back to his sense and burn that Yuri-Bitch to crisp.

Look like the last boss will appear in episode 12th and I think it's will be the longest episode of Kampfer 1st season.

hmm....btw, look like Shizuku know who she dealing with, so she make that expression in the next episode preview, I mean she know what behind Sakura that make all of this happened
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Old 2009-12-07, 09:50   Link #1853
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May be Shizuku defeat or Akane's death will give him a good shock to come back to his sense and burn that Yuri-Bitch to crisp.

Look like the last boss will appear in episode 12th and I think it's will be the longest episode of Kampfer 1st season.

hmm....btw, look like Shizuku know who she dealing with, so she make that expression in the next episode preview, I mean she know what behind Sakura that make all of this happened
I wonder if Shizuku made a contingency plan when she had a hunch who the real enemy was. Now that shes confirmed that her initial thoughts on Sakura were correct i wonder what her move will be. Shizuku is no slouch shes gotta have some type of plan up her sleeve.
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Old 2009-12-07, 09:55   Link #1854
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Wink

I only realise it now. The voice actor of Shizuku is the same o Hiromi in True Tears and Tsubaki in Soul Eater. Kaori Nazuka

Her job in this episode was very dificulty, and perfect.
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Old 2009-12-07, 11:23   Link #1855
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I only realise it now. The voice actor of Shizuku is the same o Hiromi in True Tears and Tsubaki in Soul Eater. Kaori Nazuka

Her job in this episode was very dificulty, and perfect.
what a noob, just realize it now? oh well....never mind
And yes, she perfectly fit Shizuku image in this series.
One more people under Shizuku fans flag Hyahahahaha.

Hey Thread Stater! why don't you make a poll for this series?

after re-watch episode 10
I lol at 06.53 while Shizuku blushing and Mikoto and Akane think how cute she is
Look like Sakura not the only one who spread Yuri virus in this series
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Old 2009-12-07, 11:47   Link #1856
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It's the other way round. She said in ep10 that she was never trying to flaunt her assets, and that she never cared for guys falling for her [beauty, brains, power etc.] head over heels. But now she found someone she wanted, and he's not budging (which certainly is a major part of his appeal for her).
Yeah that was my bad there. I meant to say, "to see her not for her beauty, but for herself' in the quote you used for this. I meant that I didn't see that part of hr coming out at all. It seemed artificial. By putting "The mummy hunter became the mummy," I meant she found love while playing with him and found it was more than playing soon enough.


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Look, it's not really hard to turn your head away when you're kissed. French kissing without implicit consent is literally impossible. Whenever Shizuku came on to him, he didn't really resist, and afterwards, he didn't complain or chew her out. So in MY reading, he's susceptible for that. And if I were Shizuku, until he draws a line and says "no, stop it here", I'd forge on too. (That is, my more grown-up me. My younger me did not, and in hindsight, I think it cost me)
Well I'm sorry if you thought that doing that cost you. I rather think its maturity to actually find the right time and place for expressing your affections. Again, since when has she ever felt the sting of rejection? Natsuru isn't budging, but he doesn't refuse her advances. I'm not at all putting words in your mouth, you just fail to see that her actions aren't appropriate and calling characters like Akane on not 'finishing the job.' So yeah, I'll fault Natsuru on having to be sexually accosted to feel anything. Moreover, Akane is turning to these trains of thought lately because of the incredulous nature of these two. Its a wonder she hasn't capped him in the nuts after seeing him practically melt in Shizuku's kisses, but he can't be bothered to focus on her date. All this AFTER it was her face he saw through that web of mind control. Its just ridiculous to me that just a few kisses could do more to shatter this mind-control induced resolve. That last scene in episode 8 was a pure red herring there if they go into the route.

So I'll say that I really don't find it good that she had to go that far just to see him react. It really did seem to spark of bad writing and character favoritism.

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The difference is that Akane stops at the last moment, waiting for Natsuru to actively do something. And "hey, you kissed others *pout* kiss me too!" isn't going to cut the mustard for someone as hardwired and thick as Natsuru. That _is_ realism.

Had she pulled a Shizuku on him and actively kissed him, she might have gotten what she was looking for. Now, I understand that it's not in-character for her to do it (and it's part of her personal appeal), but where would the realism have been if Natsuru had suddenly actively done it?
Realism? That is quite an unfair statement to make. In reality, there is a good chance she'd be told to back off at least somewhat. Something I pointed out in my earlier posts is that being more assertive has worked for Shizuku only. Look throughout the episodes, and Akane does many different things, from hugging him, to rubbing her breasts on him, we could go on and on a point by point basis here. In episode 8, who did we see in that Kaede filled mind-control fog? Akane. However, who do we see actually having an kind of effect here from her advances? Shizuku. I'll admit that it is partly Natsuru's fault for being such a wet blanket, and I laughed when Kaede said he was more like a girl. But Shizuku is clearly getting favoritism where we obviously see another character getting the limelight. You can't even really call this a refreshing outcome or something new, its really just throwing something together and duct taping parts that wouldn't normally stick.

Also, I don't find it any less realistic considering his nature to give Akane a kiss than letting Shizuku kiss him. If someone actively tells you to kiss them, then the depths of your denseness would have to rival a neutron star to not see where you stood with that person. But that's obvious I guess, seeing as Shizuku's kisses weren't enough to get him to understand. He'd probably have to be told flat out.

So I'll just say that they made that scene with Akane while they were drunk or something and went back to favoring Shizuku in the plot. I won't even get into the slowly weaning the yuri into Mikoto and Akane(that totally made me wallbang, but hey, maybe they'll get together. But Christ, I hope they don't become Shizuku's pets or something. Dear god no.). Well, I'll just see what happens from here.
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Old 2009-12-07, 11:50   Link #1857
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@Altima of the gates

Except the EPISODE EXPLICITY SAYS THESE THINGS, the characters do things in certain ways to make these situations logical. Naturally Sakura's closeness is going to pick Shizuku's already love love attitude with natsuru. She's pragmatic and is killing 2 birds with one stone.
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Old 2009-12-07, 11:52   Link #1858
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@Altima of the gates

Except the EPISODE EXPLICITY SAYS THESE THINGS, the characters do things in certain ways to make these situations logical. Naturally Sakura's closeness is going to pick Shizuku's already love love attitude with natsuru. She's pragmatic and is killing 2 birds with one stone.
Where exactly, sir? And what point were you arguing against?
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Old 2009-12-07, 11:56   Link #1859
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Your whole notion of reality or not, plausible or not. If you don't like the direction of the show stop watching, especially when you call the later half of the series a red herring. I mean ok the girl you like isn't the focus, it's not the end of the world, and it's not bad writing if your ship sinks.
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Old 2009-12-07, 11:56   Link #1860
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Originally Posted by Rhyel View Post
I only realise it now. The voice actor of Shizuku is the same o Hiromi in True Tears and Tsubaki in Soul Eater. Kaori Nazuka
Her job in this episode was very dificulty, and perfect.
Hard to believe she's also sweet and innocent Kisa-chan (Fruits Basket), Subaru-chan (.hack//SIGN) and especially Nunnally-chan (Code Geass) when you hear her voice in this series, isn't it?
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