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Old 2009-12-07, 01:07   Link #1801
frenze12
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Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
But you disregard the huge rift between a mere human and a Servant in terms of fighting abilities. Shirou has no way to win by simply that. The only exception if he uses for example Overedge or something similar to confuse Gil,but he didn't. He was just marching forward like he's capable to fight with him on par. Gil would have plenty of way even there to kill Shirou and even if he still keeps up his arrogant reason to defeat Shirou's projections there's no way he can be beaten by Shirou in melee. Determined or not a superhuman still remains a superhuman who has thousands of ways to defeat the mere human opposing him. With the abilities of Servants there's no way Shirou can beat Gil in a fight...the only exception if he does surprise him with a battle technique(Overedge...), but he didn't even have a good plan there.

Nasu did a quite writing error in that fight.
No I didn't neglet it. 1) You know there are humans that can fight (defensively) against a servant. Ciel and possible Ryougi Shiki (third personalty) with her self suggestion. 2) Gil fighting abitilities are inferior to the one that mastered a single noble phantasm (besides his GoB shooting arrows this is the reason why he is a archer and not a saber or a lancer). 3)Add Shirou's reality marble in here and a servant like Gil is screwed (big time).
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Last edited by frenze12; 2009-12-07 at 01:32.
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Old 2009-12-07, 03:38   Link #1802
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Yeah,someone with ultra-hax limitless MeoDP(Shiki 3rd personality) or half-vampiric body full of crazy reinforcement spells(Ciel, who also has special Black Keys) is able to fight defensively against a Servant. Shirou obviously is much more inferior to them in terms of experience, strenght or speed(in Ciel's case).
And Gil isn't much inferior to anyoe in terms of fighting skills. The thing he lacks is perfect weapon expertise. But still he IS a Servant(and one of the best physically).
And lastly UBW is only enough to Shirou have a way to counter GoB. It still doesn't give him suddenly enough power and weapon skill to beat a Servant in mellee! Gil or any other Servant would laught off such a foolish approach. I know Gil has to worry about UBW, but he can manage it due to his experience and reflexes. Not to mention the one he have to defeat is so nice and "walk"(as running by human speed is like that to a Servant) to him to be finihsed off. Shirou's projection can give him the sword's experience which shows in a more refined swing, but it still can't give him speed or strenght to be a threat. If Nasu's writing keeps up the realism Shirou would've ended up 20 meters away in a pool of blood after he tried to melee Gil.
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Old 2009-12-07, 07:38   Link #1803
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Yeah,someone with ultra-hax limitless MeoDP(Shiki 3rd personality) or half-vampiric body full of crazy reinforcement spells(Ciel, who also has special Black Keys) is able to fight defensively against a Servant. Shirou obviously is much more inferior to them in terms of experience, strenght or speed(in Ciel's case).
And Gil isn't much inferior to anyoe in terms of fighting skills. The thing he lacks is perfect weapon expertise. But still he IS a Servant(and one of the best physically).
And lastly UBW is only enough to Shirou have a way to counter GoB. It still doesn't give him suddenly enough power and weapon skill to beat a Servant in mellee! Gil or any other Servant would laught off such a foolish approach. I know Gil has to worry about UBW, but he can manage it due to his experience and reflexes. Not to mention the one he have to defeat is so nice and "walk"(as running by human speed is like that to a Servant) to him to be finihsed off. Shirou's projection can give him the sword's experience which shows in a more refined swing, but it still can't give him speed or strenght to be a threat. If Nasu's writing keeps up the realism Shirou would've ended up 20 meters away in a pool of blood after he tried to melee Gil.
First of all MeoDP does NOTHING with someone own physical abilities (nor does it rewrite time or any other of that crap). Shiki (third personality) gained her strenght through self suggestion. It is possible for a human being to temporary breach there limits (we have seen examples of this). Ciel is human and doesn't use reinforcement spells. Next I want to bring out the scene where shirou traces the caliburn and was temporary capable to fight off berserker attacks with ease. If this doesn't ring some bells it seems like you still don't understand shirou's power.
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Old 2009-12-07, 07:49   Link #1804
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Really? A human can jump 30-40 meters in lenght and else? Ciel is either by her being Roa's previous host or using reinforcement magic(or as I suspect both) can surpass human capabilities by far.
And Nasu did include Shiki's MEoDP as he also stated that R.Shiki with self-suggestion is about as good of a fighter as Taiga.
And yes, Shirou did chop off Berserker's arm with a surprise attack and him being half-enceased in ice...really a valid point. If you mean the anime then it has tons of problems regarding the fights so leave it...
If it's true then why Nasu didn't mention Shirou as someone being able to fight against Servants defensively? Nasu only mentioned Ciel and then added Shiki's 3rd personality as someone who might also be capable of doing something like that.(perhaps he might've only mentioned characters from other stories than FSN...I don't remember exactly).
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Old 2009-12-07, 14:05   Link #1805
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Not all Servants are proficient at close combat. Look at Caster, getting her ass completely kicked by Rin in close combat because that's not what she's good at. And I'm almost sure that Nasu stated normal Ryougi as about as good as swordsmanship as Taiga, not 3rd.
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Old 2009-12-07, 16:01   Link #1806
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Right...but Gilgamesh's whole legend and stats and the whole Fate scenario contradicts to that he isn't profient at all. He isn't a master of any weapon, but has extreme senses and experience and thus quite good fighting abilities. His sword-raining style is only a sign of his lasyness and arrogance to actively fight.
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Old 2009-12-07, 16:13   Link #1807
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Really? A human can jump 30-40 meters in lenght and else? Ciel is either by her being Roa's previous host or using reinforcement magic(or as I suspect both) can surpass human capabilities by far.
And Nasu did include Shiki's MEoDP as he also stated that R.Shiki with self-suggestion is about as good of a fighter as Taiga.
1)Again MEoDP does nothing with the user physical ability, you still have to hit the object with your own abilities . If you mean that without self suggestion R.Shiki is on par with Taiga then you are correct. 2) As hard it might sound Ciel really does have death apostle strenght and speed while still being 100% human without any mention of reinforcement magic or other support. (and that doesn't really suprise me, even kotomine with his martial arts in the fourth holy grail is uber strong for a human). 3) I am referring to the novel where Shirou projects the caliburn for the second time and while it was being made he was bloking berserkers slashes with ease. When the spell was done shirou came back to reality and was smashed away by a blow he previously defended with ease. If he keeps his mind in this state which he did against gil during the UBW fight, you cannot deny that he at least has a fighting chance.
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Old 2009-12-07, 18:20   Link #1808
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There really isn't any basis to judging Gilgamesh's swordsmanship. All that is really stated is that he is inferior to Saber in swordsmanship, which doesn't mean all the much considering how talented Saber is. There's no logic behind simply saying Gilgamesh is a Servant, therefore his swordsmanship exceeds all human swordsmanship.
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Old 2009-12-07, 19:09   Link #1809
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But his obviously better than Archer's as he was disarmed 15 times in mere seconds by Lancer...somone who should be inferior in weapon mastery compared to Saber. While Saber had much more difficulties at disarming Gil at Ryoudo Temple. She did it abot 3 times at maximum in a multi-minute-long fight. And if Shirou's enchanced and well-experienced version is so inferior in terms of weapon skill then you can imagine how many chances Shirou should have realistically speaking.
And Ciel IS using reinforcements...or otherwise she shouldn't be able to be that fast. It is simple a rough fact of realism. If there's a way to make someone by pure capabilities and training to almost mach Dead Apostoles then the olimpic records should be much muhc more better, like achieving 100m dash under 3 seconds and else...which of course won't happen as there are certain limits of humans. So Ciel SHOULD use reinforcements and quite excellent ones. And it also has a quite explanation as she inherited the magical knownledge of Roa.
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Old 2009-12-07, 19:45   Link #1810
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It's actually not that easy to judge Lancer's weapon mastery. If your simply comparing by their first encounter, remember that Lancer was under the command spell and wasn't able to fight at his maximum power. And Saber was having difficulties fighting Gilgamesh because weapons kept on appearing out of his GoB, slowing her down. If it was simply a fight in pure swordsmanship, without GoB getting the way, there is little question of whether or not Saber would have demolished Gilgamesh in a swordfight.
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Old 2009-12-08, 00:47   Link #1811
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No...it was a pure contest of swordsmanship until he got bored with it and unleashed GoB. Saber's main problem was that even when disarmed him a new sword apppeared in Gil's hand, but if we exclude that then actually fought with swords alone there.

And right, we don't know how goodLancer in melee is, but I bet he shouldn't be better than Saber...and Gilgamesh had a somehow normal fight with Saber while Archer had to resort to cheat against Lancer constantly just to keep up.

Enough indication of the fact how weak Archer is even with the borrowed experience of the swords.
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Old 2009-12-08, 01:31   Link #1812
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First, it's literally almost impossible to judge Lancer against Saber in melee. In fact, if you compare the two in pure stats, this being Shirou Saber who fought Gilgamesh against Lancer, Lancer actually has the upper hand there.

Also, in the Saber vs Gilgamesh fight, swords kept appearing from GoB to block for him. Or, to quote the game,
Quote:
The sword keeps moving. It has destroyed rocks and pierced through walls, but...
"Guh-!"
Every blow is blocked by weapons appearing from behind him.
"You persistent-!"
Escaping danger, the golden knight-Gilgamesh has another sword in hand.
"-!"
It is easy to repel that weapon.
But she cannot block it straight on.
All of the enemies weapons have unknown abilities.
It would be suicidal to block without knowing its ability.
Thus, it wasn't even close to a pure contest of swordsmanship, especially when you don't even need to worry about blocking, and your opponent isn't allowed to block your sword.

I'm almost sure Archer uses his own skill when wielding Kanshou and Bakuya. Which is almost the only thing he actually uses.
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Old 2009-12-08, 01:51   Link #1813
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Kanshou and Byakuya is also well-renowned Noble Phantasms...they sure similary have mintu-lenght "memory flashes" where they move according to how they used to.

And it seems I need to refresh my knownledge about the Gil fight...
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Old 2009-12-08, 03:18   Link #1814
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I still can't grasp WHY Gilgamesh was made an Archer. I can understand the stretching of his myth (or actual history) for Gates of Babylon, as he did technically own everything in the world (all that lived outside of Mesopotamia died shortly afterward). Allowing him access to all Noble Phantasms, I can understand the stretch. Yet, making his class out of something already so stretched out? That's going too far. Gilgamesh was NOT famous for throwing rocks at people. He was famous for his strength, tyranical rule, his friendship with Enkindu, and his quest for immortality.

Oh, and willy, if Lancelot wasn't a Beserker, he wouldn't have sucked up so much mana with his NP, allowing him to use A Knight Does Not Die With Empty Hands much more freely. Even if he got hit with the warp scythe in the first fight, it would only work once. As Gilgamesh lacks Knowledge of Foremost Harmory, he can't use the same exact attack twice and expect it to work again (even a Beserker wouldn't fall for that... unless they were REALLY stupid... *cough* Don Quixote *cough*). Gilgamesh would have no effective way to win without pulling out Ea, and even then, Lancelot could close the distance in no time. With that in mind, Lancelot would likely be able to survive the first hit due to his high endurance and luck, allowing him to inflict a fatal wound with Arondite. I personally think it would've been more interesting that way.
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Old 2009-12-08, 03:21   Link #1815
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But his obviously better than Archer's as he was disarmed 15 times in mere seconds by Lancer...somone who should be inferior in weapon mastery compared to Saber. While Saber had much more difficulties at disarming Gil at Ryoudo Temple. She did it abot 3 times at maximum in a multi-minute-long fight. And if Shirou's enchanced and well-experienced version is so inferior in terms of weapon skill then you can imagine how many chances Shirou should have realistically speaking.
And Ciel IS using reinforcements...or otherwise she shouldn't be able to be that fast. It is simple a rough fact of realism. If there's a way to make someone by pure capabilities and training to almost mach Dead Apostoles then the olimpic records should be much muhc more better, like achieving 100m dash under 3 seconds and else...which of course won't happen as there are certain limits of humans. So Ciel SHOULD use reinforcements and quite excellent ones. And it also has a quite explanation as she inherited the magical knownledge of Roa.
1) You can think whatever you want about Ciel, the fact remains that she has this physical abilities WHITOUT using magic to enchance them. (Roa said it himself that he wasn't feeling any magic activity from Ciel). 2) This is just a story so you shouldn't be suprised that there are "normal" people who can achieve seemingly unpossible feets.
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Old 2009-12-08, 03:24   Link #1816
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Show me a gang-banger from detroit take down an M-1 Abrams Main Battle Tank. Some things just aren't possible, mein fruend.
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Old 2009-12-08, 09:12   Link #1817
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Show me a gang-banger from detroit take down an M-1 Abrams Main Battle Tank. Some things just aren't possible, mein fruend.
As you wish but with the exception of Berserker being the tank and Shirou the gangbanger.

Spoiler for How to gangbang a tank:
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Old 2009-12-08, 09:31   Link #1818
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I still can't grasp WHY Gilgamesh was made an Archer. I can understand the stretching of his myth (or actual history) for Gates of Babylon, as he did technically own everything in the world (all that lived outside of Mesopotamia died shortly afterward). Allowing him access to all Noble Phantasms, I can understand the stretch. Yet, making his class out of something already so stretched out? That's going too far. Gilgamesh was NOT famous for throwing rocks at people. He was famous for his strength, tyranical rule, his friendship with Enkindu, and his quest for immortality.
He was made an Archer for the same reason that Lancer was made a Lancer, even though he was more known for beserking than using the gae bolg. Or for the same reason Rider was a Rider. As far as I can tell, going from by the description of the classes,

Quote:
* Archer - Servant type with low base stats but made up by skills and Noble Phantasms.

* Assassin - Servant type that can only be one of the 19 different Hassans. Each has a different Zabaniya NP (which had been secret techniques each concealed in order to use against each other). Also, none of them (probably) have any sort of face behind their masks. Basically a Servant type that is only effective in kiling Masters and not Servants.

* Avenger - Servant type created only for summoning Angra Mainyu.

* Berserker - Servant type specialized just in destruction through rage. Grants powers that surpass what one had during life through Mad Enhancement in exchange for loss of sanity. Basic stat requirements are low. Even a hero with all status at rank E can qualify as long as a certain condition is met. A class that is meant to be used to augment lesser Heroic Spirits. Power requirements for materializing Berserkers are several levels higher than other Servants, and do to inability to properly control (and command them to dematerialize) them, Berserkers have always exhausted the Prana of the Master, thus destroying themselves. (And no, the notion that they're a lousy class because they end up turning on their Masters is incorrect).

* Caster - Servant type specialized in MGI. The weakest of the Servants.

* Lancer - Servant type demanding extremely high AGI and excellent close-combat ability.

* Rider - Servant type demanding high mobility. Possesses a powerful Noble Phantasm. Normally doesn't have as many skills and powers as the 5th Rider.

* Saber - Servant type in which all stats must be no less than standard, excluding MGI, in order to qualify.
It doesn't even seem that the weapon they use actually affects what class they are. Besides, from my faint memory of the Epic of Gilgamesh, we don't really get to see how he fights, except that he wrestled with Enkikdu.

Also, the thing is, in the Nasuverse, apparently some people are able of achieving inhumanly specs through sheer training and without reinforcement. Example, Tohno Shiki. There's on way he's using reinforcement magic during Tsukihime, yet he still pulls off some impressive feats, like killing Nero's 999 beast form. And yes, he has MEoDP, but that doesn't do anything for his actual physical stats. Or, look at Kotomine from Fate/Zero, where he literally uproots a tree through sheer upper body strength.
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Old 2009-12-08, 16:17   Link #1819
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It doesn't even seem that the weapon they use actually affects what class they are.
Although, once they are of that specific class, I notice that they have a tendency to use that particular weapon.

And I thought Avenger was based mostly around counterattacking and being rather anti-heroic? Not just the relation to Angra Mainyu.
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Old 2009-12-08, 16:32   Link #1820
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We don't know if the Einzberns not made the Avenger class simply for the War itself later and they planned it specifically for Angra Mainyou...I have a feeling they did. If so then there's no other Avenger than Angra Mainyou. It's somehow like Hassan=Assassins
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