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Old 2009-12-08, 02:06   Link #3981
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The easiest explanation is that Kinzo died by natural death, I see little reasons to make conjectures about it. As for Nanjo, if none of those scenes are fake then yeah he lied, but it is easier to think he lied because Kinzo told him to never tell anyone about his conditions before his death.
Fair enough, then. I'm still not done suspecting Nanjo for a lot of things, but eh.

...On another tack... what was Kinzo's disease/illness? What kind of thing would a man like that contract? He was, apparently, still living as he always did, and although he was nuts it certainly wasn't dementia, if he only had five months to live.

...Furthermore. Nanjo tells everyone about Kinzo's condition during the game, even though he leads everyone to believe that Kinzo is still alive.

Why tell the truth now?
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Old 2009-12-08, 02:07   Link #3982
Ssol
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
There was no reason for Beatrice to refuse to repeat that the 6 were all killed by other people if it was true. As much as she's fickle this is going kinda overboard. You'd have to think that the whole Ronove blocking Beatrice and taking her away was all part of an act, and for what purpose anyway?

The easiest explanation is that Kinzo died by natural death, I see little reasons to make conjectures about it. As for Nanjo, if none of those scenes are fake then yeah he lied, but it is easier to think he lied because Kinzo told him to never tell anyone about his conditions before his death.
Sorry but, The 6 people died instantly!(including Kinzo). Beatrice also said, "By instant death, I mean that as soon as they were attacked, they became incapable of action."

How can being attacked be a natural death?

How can dying instantly be a natural death?

However, you're right about why didn't Beatrice repeat what Battler asked in red. That's why I mentioned it in my previous post. Mabye she just didn't want to accidently say something about Kinzo at that point in time that might corner her later on.
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Old 2009-12-08, 02:17   Link #3983
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Sorry but, The 6 people died instantly!(including Kinzo). Beatrice also said, "By instant death, I mean that as soon as they were attacked, they became incapable of action."

How can being attacked be a natural death?

How can dying instantly be a natural death?

However, you're right about why didn't Beatrice repeat what Battler asked in red. That's why I mentioned it in my previous post. Mabye she just didn't want to accidently say something about Kinzo at that point in time that might corner her later on.
Well what's so strange about that? Usually natural deaths are instant, unless you consider the illness that brought to them as very slow dying processes but that is kinda preposterous.

There is a famous man in my country that died during a TV talk show. One sec he was there talking, and then he reclined his head and died. My grandmother died in a similar way, she just suddenly stopped breathing. That's not strange at all.

And no attack was mentioned in red.
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Old 2009-12-08, 02:21   Link #3984
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The problem is that Beatrice went out of her way to explain exactly what she meant by instant death. She didn't just leave it for different interpretations.

Although, you're right, the explanation she gave wasn't in red...

Then was she trying to trick Battler?
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Old 2009-12-08, 02:23   Link #3985
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Well what's so strange about that? Usually natural deaths are instant, unless you consider the illness that brought to them as very slow dying processes but that is kinda preposterous.
That is, however, how most people view terminal illnesses.

Further... "died instantly"? Think about that wording for a minute. It means something happened to make them die.

Would you describe an illness as "killing instantly"?
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Old 2009-12-08, 02:26   Link #3986
Jan-Poo
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it's not "killing instantly" it is "died instantly" and an heart attack or ictus certainly qualify as instant deaths.
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Old 2009-12-08, 02:28   Link #3987
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
it's not "killing instantly" it is "died instantly" and an heart attack or ictus certainly qualify as instant deaths.
I... can't see Kinzo dying of a heart attack or a stroke. He's too tough.

And if he was ill, I'd think the illness would have killed him. Nanjo DID only give him a few months to live...


Although, if it was a heart attack and not the illness, the contradiction in what Nanjo said in Ep1 and what he said in Ep5 is resolved...
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Old 2009-12-08, 02:29   Link #3988
Ssol
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it's not "killing instantly" it is "died instantly" and an heart attack or ictus certainly qualify as instant deaths.
Do you have a theory why she would trick Battler by giving him a false definition of what she meant by instant death?
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Old 2009-12-08, 02:35   Link #3989
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That's a nice point. In that case I think a deep examination of the word "攻撃" is in order.

Is it exclusive for aggressions from third parties, or is it possible for it to refer to seizures or other natural diseases like heart "attacks"?
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Old 2009-12-08, 02:51   Link #3990
Ssol
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Hmmm...
6人は即死であった!即死とはつまり、攻撃を受けて即座に行動不能になったという意味だ。

The part in bold is "sustain an attack" (I think) and the te-form of 受ける connects it to the rest of the sentence.

So mabye a more literal translation would be:
"By instant death, I mean that they sustained an attack and immediately became incapable of action."
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Old 2009-12-08, 03:03   Link #3991
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I... can't see Kinzo dying of a heart attack or a stroke. He's too tough.
"Toughness" isn't something that's likely to matter when it comes to these things, though...
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Old 2009-12-08, 03:09   Link #3992
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"Toughness" isn't something that's likely to matter when it comes to these things, though...
Tough old people don't die very easily, I've tended to notice. But Kinzo's clearly a Type A, so a heart attack might make sense, the way he pushes himself.
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Old 2009-12-08, 03:10   Link #3993
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Being an alcoholist certainly didn't help him.
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Old 2009-12-08, 03:28   Link #3994
Kaisos Erranon
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Being an alcoholist certainly didn't help him.
The word is "alcoholic", although "alcoholist" is a great word too.

Sounds like some kind of mage...
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Old 2009-12-08, 03:32   Link #3995
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Well with Kinzo being a practitioner of the black arts Alcoholist certainly sounds reasonable lol.
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Old 2009-12-08, 05:34   Link #3996
vendredi
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Well with Kinzo being a practitioner of the black arts Alcoholist certainly sounds reasonable lol.
Sounds like a magus version of the stereotypical "drunken master". Add absinthe, throw lightning from fingertips.

Quote:
Somehow I don't get the meaning of Jessica being the Beatrice

Does it mean she was Maria's master?

Does it mean she wrote the letters-in-the-bottle?

Does it mean she sent the bank card and pin?

Does it mean she wrote the pin on the door in EP3?

Or she was none of the above except being Maria's master, by throwing all Ange's observations away?
I think these are valid questions for any character we finger as "Beatrice". It's notable that Suit Beatrice and Golden Witch Beatrice are sometimes presented as separate entities - in episode 4 when Suit Beatrice returns to the study she holds a conversation with Witch Beatrice.
If you subscribe to the diehard anti-fantasy camp then this scenario can be disregarded. If you're a more moderate anti-fantasist, who feels that the supernatural events are metaphors for real events, does this suggest that there are different culprits behind the different actions?

Is the "Beatrice" who does the killing the same "Beatrice" that writes Maria's letters, signs the diary, and sends the bank card and PIN?
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Old 2009-12-08, 05:43   Link #3997
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It's not about fingering every character in this case. It looks like a lot of people are keeping up with the Jessitrice theory.
As for me, I'd say that Jessica is the most unlikely person to be 'fingered' as Beatrice. She is stupid, overemotive and definately not someone capable of thinking things out. And I'll have to see a very strong evidence to believe that all that 'stupid' outlook is just an act.
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Old 2009-12-08, 05:58   Link #3998
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Originally Posted by vendredi View Post
If you subscribe to the diehard anti-fantasy camp then this scenario can be disregarded. If you're a more moderate anti-fantasist, who feels that the supernatural events are metaphors for real events, does this suggest that there are different culprits behind the different actions?

Is the "Beatrice" who does the killing the same "Beatrice" that writes Maria's letters, signs the diary, and sends the bank card and PIN?
If you feel that supernatural events are metaphors of real events then that scene you mention would rather make me think that the two "Beatrice" know each other and share similar goals 'though with (maybe) different agendas.

What we see there is that one Beatrice relinquished her position to another Beatrice probably because her plan failed.
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Old 2009-12-08, 06:22   Link #3999
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So I had an idea a couple of days ago.
We know thanks to Ange, that EVA is the manifestation of a young oppressed girl who wants to be free of all those stupid family obligations, so according to the moment she can represent Kasumi, Eva, Rosa and maybe Natsuhi and Kyrie.
So if a certain witch represents a certain feeling, how about Beato being a manifestation of regret?

Every time she appears in game, there is regret involved.

Kinzo => Regret of his lost love
Shannon => Regrets not being able to be with George.
Kanon => Wants to be human and not furniture.
Maria => Imagines Beato due to her lack of friends/Nice Rosa.
For Rosa, the Beato she meets in early Ep2 is the nice mama she would like to be with Maria.
Kyrie meeting Beato : Not sure, but deep regret involving being separated from her son (who's probably Battler)
Everyone meeting Beato in the chapel : Since there is 3 bars of gold there, someone found the gold, so there is a common regret of everyone who didn't solve the epitaph themselves.
Jessica meets Beato at the second twilight : a lot of stuff involving with Kanon like not knowing his true name.
George sees Beato in Ep 3 after Shannon died, and regrets not seeing her smile one last time.
Battler is the only one who meets Beato in Ep4 and she tells him he has a sin and it's his fault the murders happen. She even asks him to repent.

This could also match her title of Endless Witch : Actions done in the past cannot be undone and you can only regret them endlessly. The only way to cure yourself is to atone for your sins like she asks Battler to do.


This is probably totally wrong but whatever, I can try. :P

Last edited by Joneleth; 2009-12-08 at 06:33.
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Old 2009-12-08, 07:56   Link #4000
LaplaceNoMa
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By the way, I wonder if anyone have tried to think in a cross-over way looking at Higurashi. The exactly same Maria's and Keichi's messages; the way Rena tells Takano that 'but Oyashiro-sama "exists"!'.

Could Ryokishi07 be that hard of a troll that Okonogi, Rika and 34 are not the only connections between Higurashi's and Umineko's worlds?

What if, I dunno, Takano and Tokyo organization had something to do with the Rokkenjima incident? ;_;
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