AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

View Poll Results: Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Episode 23 Rating
Perfect 10 29 23.58%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 26 21.14%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 28 22.76%
7 out of 10 : Good 20 16.26%
6 out of 10 : Average 10 8.13%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 4 3.25%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 0.81%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 5 4.07%
Voters: 123. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2009-12-07, 12:09   Link #141
KanonTheFurniture
Witch's Golden Breaker
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Massachusetts
Age: 27
Ange's reaction was a lot more vivid in the VN as well, and if I recall the back room was described as being a lot more cluttered than what we see in the Anime. I just figure that he had no idea what she could be looking at that would give her such an astonished and even seemingly frightened reaction. Even if he knew this Sakutaro was a gift Rosa wanted to give to Maria 12 years ago, he probably wouldn't imagine it would warrant such a reaction. If I were him, and Ange was there staring into the back of the place at something that gave her such a reaction, my mind wouldn't immediately jump to 'oh you're looking at that plushie'.

I mean, even if he did know its significance, it's still a plushie and he has no reason to suspect that means anything to Ange, especially since she wasn't there in 1986 when Rosa may have had the captain hold onto Sakutaro. And if the room is super cluttered like I imagined in the VN, it makes it even more understandable that he might not know what exactly Ange was looking at. I don't think him not knowing is very unusual at all. She was acting like she saw a ghost - and to the captain, there was nothing in that room that should warrant such a strange reaction, so of course he was confused.
KanonTheFurniture is offline  
Old 2009-12-07, 16:49   Link #142
Kite22
Wielder of the Bracelet
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Age: 25
Send a message via AIM to Kite22
Besides didn't Ange say something along the lines of that she stole/took the diary and the stake? at the very least the stake wasn't given to her. I mean who gives a 6 year old girl the murder weapon that was used to kill her mother?
Kite22 is offline  
Old 2009-12-07, 19:04   Link #143
Marion
The Great Dine
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kite22 View Post
Besides didn't Ange say something along the lines of that she stole/took the diary and the stake? at the very least the stake wasn't given to her. I mean who gives a 6 year old girl the murder weapon that was used to kill her mother?
The diary and the stake were found by the police, but deemed irrelevant. Ange didn't receive it when she was 6 though. After a few years after the massacre the items were allowed to be given back to the family. Ange decided to take the diary and took the stake because she noticed it was the same as the drawing in Maria's diary of Mammon's stake.

But yeah it is interesting that only Mammon's stake was found, when it was staked into Kyrie, but every other stake wasn't, along with the bodies.
__________________

Sig by nocco
Marion is offline  
Old 2009-12-08, 01:11   Link #144
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
To the captain, that Sakutarou was a gift which was the first time created by Rosa for Maria (he probably did not know a previous Sakutarou existed), but that gift had not been finished, as Rosa told him she was going to finish it after the meeting.

Because it was not finished, he had little reason to give it to Eva (and how on earth he would want to give a plush to a 5x-year-old woman Eva, especially when it was not finished?).
First: why would Rosa tell the captain all that?
Second: why would Rosa bring Sakutaro to Rokkenjima if it wasn't finished?
Third: why the fact that was unfinished (which is just your speculation btw) a reason enough for the captain to keep something that wasn't his own property?

None of this makes any sense.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KanonTheFurniture View Post
Ange's reaction was a lot more vivid in the VN as well, and if I recall the back room was described as being a lot more cluttered than what we see in the Anime. I just figure that he had no idea what she could be looking at that would give her such an astonished and even seemingly frightened reaction. Even if he knew this Sakutaro was a gift Rosa wanted to give to Maria 12 years ago, he probably wouldn't imagine it would warrant such a reaction. If I were him, and Ange was there staring into the back of the place at something that gave her such a reaction, my mind wouldn't immediately jump to 'oh you're looking at that plushie'.

I mean, even if he did know its significance, it's still a plushie and he has no reason to suspect that means anything to Ange, especially since she wasn't there in 1986 when Rosa may have had the captain hold onto Sakutaro. And if the room is super cluttered like I imagined in the VN, it makes it even more understandable that he might not know what exactly Ange was looking at. I don't think him not knowing is very unusual at all. She was acting like she saw a ghost - and to the captain, there was nothing in that room that should warrant such a strange reaction, so of course he was confused.
You forgot to mention it is a plush in a futon shop. There are futons everywhere and there is this bag of plush that has no apparent reason to be there. You'd have to be idiot to not guess what could possibly attract someone's attention in such situation.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline  
Old 2009-12-08, 01:13   Link #145
k//eternal
do you know ベアトリーチェ様?
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 26
DEEN just got lazy with drawing the clutter in the room, that's all. No surprise there.
k//eternal is offline  
Old 2009-12-08, 01:52   Link #146
ijriims
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
@Jan-Poo:

1.WHen you leave something in someone's home, you don't just put it there without telling the person, especially when that person is a friend of yours. Isn't it normal that when you leave something for someone to watch over it, you will tell the time you are going to take it back?

2.Because she wants to finish it as quickly as possible and gives it to Maria soon, not after they got back home.

Spoiler for SN EP4 spoiler:


Then all Rosa needed to do is: after finishing the neckerchief, she got back Sakutarou, and placed the neckerchief onto Sakutarou and presented this gift to Maria.

It all makes sense, I guess.

-----------------------

As long as the captain did not know Ange had knew about Sakutarou, he could not understand how come she had such a big reaction, even if he somehow guessed she was referring to the plush.

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-12-09 at 00:32.
ijriims is offline  
Old 2009-12-08, 02:02   Link #147
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
1. Rosa never went to Kawabata's home. What are you talking about?

2. How was Rosa supposed to finish Sakutaro at the family meeting?
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline  
Old 2009-12-08, 08:13   Link #148
Uchiha Soul
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
Because it was not finished, he had little reason to give it to Eva (and how on earth he would want to give a plush to a 5x-year-old woman Eva, especially when it was not finished?).
the answer will be in Bold


Quote:
Originally Posted by KanonTheFurniture View Post
Spoiler for the size:
If we put in our mind the length of the period (12 years) we can assume that the captain is forgot about the plush thatís why he didnít understand directly what Ange was looking at? Or maybe he did understand but reacted as he is not .. we can assume lots of things. But this is not the problem .. the problem is: this Stuffed animal belong to whom?! And why he didnít return it?!

*If it belongs to him and his children .. it will not effect anything except that we will know that Sakutaro is not a handmade by Rosa.

* If he didnít know about it .. then he didnít know anything unless he is lying.

* If he found it in the beach before or after the incident, then there is a chance that he didnít thought it that it belongs to the family thatís why he didnít returned it. But might he knew but didnít return it.

* If he knew that it belongs to Maria .. then the question is who gave him this plush? Is it Rosa or Maria .. if its Rosa, it might be another Sakutaro .. if its Maria then it might be the same torn one .. bcoz we are not sure if its complete or not so there is a chance it might be the actual one (the torn one) that Maria brought it with her and put it here before the departing.

* If the man knew about it why didnít he returned it to Eva?! .. first answering ijriims; he will not give it to her as a gift like he will said "Eva-Sama, this plush is gift from me to you!!" com'n as a worker, and a loyal one he must returned everything he had or found that belongs to the family to Eva (bcoz she is the only survivor) .. her age is unrelated to those manners nor if the plush is completed or not. He must put everything he had that belongs to them inside a bag or a box and give it to her whether it is a toy or a gold, new or broken.

So the answer of not returning it to them could be one of the followings:
Not know about it / forget about it / found it but not think that is related to the family / belong to his children / gift from Rosa / it wasnít there until today (although I donít like the last one coz as an experienced captain he must noticing anything strange on his boat while in the ep he was acting normal).

Uchiha Soul is offline  
Old 2009-12-08, 08:42   Link #149
KanonTheFurniture
Witch's Golden Breaker
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Massachusetts
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uchiha Soul View Post
* If he knew that it belongs to Maria .. then the question is who gave him this plush? Is it Rosa or Maria .. if its Rosa, it might be another Sakutaro .. if its Maria then it might be the same torn one .. bcoz we are not sure if its complete or not so there is a chance it might be the actual one (the torn one) that Maria brought it with her and put it here before the departing.
Knowing Maria, and that she has brought Sakutaro to the conferences in the past (hence Ange being able to deny him), there's no way everyone wouldn't know about him. Even if Rosa was irritated by her constantly playing with him and making him talk and whatnot, don't you think that she'd be going around with Sakutaro and playing and talking to the relatives with the toy? No doubt everyone would know about Maria and her plushie. I think the same can be said for the captain. I can easily see Maria making a fuss playing with Sakutaro on the boat trip over, so if he saw that same unique lion toy, there's no doubt he would know it belonged to Maria. In which case, yeah, he probably kept it after the incident for a specific reason.

I remember in the VN when he's talking to Ange he stresses that he wants her to come back safe, because his closure is that he was charged with bringing the family to and back from the island which didn't happen...kinda eluded to in the Anime as well, but not as bluntly, but either way this says that the Rokkenjima incident means a lot to him. In which case, if he held onto Sakutaro for some sentimental reason or 'unfinished business', then yes, he should know full well that it was still back there even if it has been 12 years since...and should have either A) offered it to Ange or B) at least known what she was looking at (though her reaction was still like she saw a ghost, so I stand by the fact that he might assume that she's seeing something else that he can't see...like a witch).

But all that hinges on Sakutaro being a unique stuffed toy. If he found it he would have to have remembered Maria playing with it, because that's just the kind of kid she is. Remember all the convenience store people? Maria became well known in that area because she was going to buy food every night when Rosa was away, and everyone remembered the loud, happy little girl and her stuffed lion. Wouldn't the captain remember the same? But if Sakutaro was actually a manufactured toy, maybe not. Maybe he'd associate it more with his own kids than with a girl he ferried to an island once or twice (yes, I know she went to more than that many conferences, but not with Sakutaro). So if that Sakutaro in the bag wasn't Maria's Sakutaro, then yeah, maybe he wouldn't connect the two. Though if that were the case it raises questions as to why Ange thought of it as 'magic'...was she that much younger than Maria (3 years) that she wouldn't remember a fad of popular lion plushies at the time? Or maybe it was a market product, but not some super popular thing and it's just a coincidence that Kawabata has one in his shop? That'd be kinda weird. If it wasn't the Sakutaro, I'd have to think that those lion toys were really popular, or it'd just be way too convenient for him to have one as well.

All in all...yeah, I got nothin'. But I stand by what I said...with the kind of girl Maria is, if Sakutaro was truly the one and only lion toy of his kind, then I can't imagine how Kawabata wouldn't remember that poor unfortunate little girl who died in that massacre. He'd have to connect the lion to Maria. It makes more sense that this would be a reason for him to save the toy in his shop, too (if it was something of his own children's, for instance, wouldn't it be in his home instead, and not stuffed in a random bag in a back room?), so he has to know the plushie is connected to the incident if it's the only Sakutaro. Which just makes it very confusing as to why A) he kept it and it didn't get distributed to the survivors and B) why he couldn't guess that it might be what Ange was looking at.

This is kinda why I always thought the 'what Ange saw was Sakutaro' theory was stupid, because I can't make sense of it...turns out I'm the stupid one, since it's true. Dammit, DEEN.
KanonTheFurniture is offline  
Old 2009-12-08, 08:52   Link #150
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Well I think that regardless of the many interpretations we can at least agree that as K//eternal said, the shop was supposed to have many other junk in there. If it was exactly as the anime showed to us that scene makes really little sense.

'Though I don't get why in a futon shop there was all that random stuff.

That point apart we still have the problem to explain what exactly is the meaning of a Sakutaro in that place. How exactly Ange was able to figure out anything seeing that?
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline  
Old 2009-12-08, 09:05   Link #151
KanonTheFurniture
Witch's Golden Breaker
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Massachusetts
Age: 27
That's another reason I really disliked the Anime's version of that scene. It feels so scripted. Ange looks, sees bag, reacts like 'OMG, I gets it nao, Maria-Oneechan, Beatrice, this is magic'...um...wut? Seriously, it loses a lot of impact without seeing the reactions of everyone else...Kawabata and Amakusa on the 'human' side of things, both unable to see what exactly is going on or why Ange is reacting that way, and then on the 'magic' side we have Ange herself as well as the stakes (or was it just Mammon, I forget) and Sakutaro himself. Especially with the Anime essentially proving it was Sakutaro's plushie form in that bag, why remove the reaction of Anthro!Sakutaro? It makes the whole scene a lot more confusing and honestly if I hadn't read the VN I would think that scene was kinda pointless. I think the reactions of everyone else are important, especially Anthro!Sakutaro, because he actually seems more shocked/scared than Ange does...which doesn't explain why what she sees is apparently 'magic' and the answer to everything she's searching for, but it does imply that the scene is a big hint somehow.

Anyone remember exactly what it is the non-Ange folks say in the VN during that scene? I kinda haven't finished EP4 on my laptop so I can't do scene select for it, and I'm too lazy to 'S' through the whole thing. I don't think it was any less vague than what Ange said or what we got in the Anime (it was the reactions themselves that I feel were missing in the Anime, not what was said), but I could be wrong.
KanonTheFurniture is offline  
Old 2009-12-08, 20:45   Link #152
Marion
The Great Dine
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Only Mammon and Sakutaro react. Mammon's pretty much confused, along with Sakutaro. I think one of them say this is impossible.
__________________

Sig by nocco
Marion is offline  
Old 2009-12-09, 00:45   Link #153
ijriims
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
1. Rosa never went to Kawabata's home. What are you talking about?

2. How was Rosa supposed to finish Sakutaro at the family meeting?
1. Sorry, what I meant by putting Sakutarou in Kawabata's home should mean putting it inside his ship. She did not need to go to his home, she just needed to leave it to him on the boat when they were traveling to Rokkenjima. Kawabata still placed it in the ship but after the incident, he placed Sakutarou in his home.

Spoiler for Possible spoiler from EP4 SN:
ijriims is offline  
Old 2009-12-09, 01:58   Link #154
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
1) Why would Rosa give Sakutaro to Kawabata? What's the point of bringing Sakutaro along only to leave it to some random people? Let's say there is a reason for Rosa wanting to give Sakutaro to Maria at the family meeting. But don't you think that in that case leaving Sakutaro to Kawabata completely defies this purpose? Kawabata was only supposed to come back once the family meeting ended. The travel back to home would only be about 4 hours long. So it would be totally pointless to bring Sakutaro along only to give it to Maria at best 4 hours earlier

2) The neckerchief wasn't part of Sakutaro. It was Maria's idea to give the neckerchief to Sakutaro, which means Sakutaro doesn't need a neckerchief to be "finished". In addition there is no reason to think the original neckerchief was damaged in any way (the VN doesn't say that, the anime shows no damage), which means Rosa could have simply reused that.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline  
Old 2009-12-09, 02:26   Link #155
ijriims
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
1) Why would Rosa give Sakutaro to Kawabata? What's the point of bringing Sakutaro along only to leave it to some random people? Let's say there is a reason for Rosa wanting to give Sakutaro to Maria at the family meeting. But don't you think that in that case leaving Sakutaro to Kawabata completely defies this purpose? Kawabata was only supposed to come back once the family meeting ended. The travel back to home would only be about 4 hours long. So it would be totally pointless to bring Sakutaro along only to give it to Maria at best 4 hours earlier

2) The neckerchief wasn't part of Sakutaro. It was Maria's idea to give the neckerchief to Sakutaro, which means Sakutaro doesn't need a neckerchief to be "finished". In addition there is no reason to think the original neckerchief was damaged in any way (the VN doesn't say that, the anime shows no damage), which means Rosa could have simply reused that.
You missed my point.

Rosa wanted to finish it as quickly as possible but she still could not finish it by the time the family meeting came. In the best case, she could present it to Maria in the meeting, in front of everyone. But she did not finish it yet. So in a sub-optimal case she would present it on their way back home, so she would still present it to Maria before everyone. She probably already was working hard on the ship when they were going to Rokkenjima and she expected she would finish it all when they took the journey back.

Even though the neckerchief was not part of Rosa's origianl design, if Maria like it and she wanted to repent for what she did in the past, she would most likely make it as well to applease her.

Spoiler for spoiler from SN:


BTW, why did you hate so much about Rosa remaking Sakutarou? Don't you think Ryukishi07 wants to give an opportunity for her to redeem herself, despite all the things she did and shown in EP4.
ijriims is offline  
Old 2009-12-09, 02:34   Link #156
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
I do not hate that theory at all, but why that should make me thing that Rosa was acting in such an irrational way? Bringing Sakutaro along and then leaving it to Kawabata for no apparent reasons, she had a big luggage she could have kept sakutaro there. And then not wanting to wait 4 hours to give the gift to Maria is just incredibly pointless.

There has to be a better explanation than this.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline  
Old 2009-12-09, 02:43   Link #157
ijriims
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I do not hate that theory at all, but why that should make me thing that Rosa was acting in such an irrational way? Bringing Sakutaro along and then leaving it to Kawabata for no apparent reasons, she had a big luggage she could have kept sakutaro there. And then not wanting to wait 4 hours to give the gift to Maria is just incredibly pointless.

There has to be a better explanation than this.
She wanted to present it before everyone as well, so that Maria could "show off" Sakutarou to Battler, and George. While she would earn a better score from Eva's family and Rudolf as well.
ijriims is offline  
Old 2009-12-09, 02:45   Link #158
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Then a better idea was to keep Sakutaro with herself so that there could be a chance for Maria to show Sakutaro to Jessica Krauss and Natsuhi as well.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline  
Old 2009-12-09, 03:11   Link #159
ijriims
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
Another hypothesis was that she did bring an almost completed Sakutarou to Rokkenjima, what in the captain's home was some less-than-perfect replicas of the initial Sakutarou (perhaps the lining was messed up or the shape did not match). She did not want to throw those failed replica away so she gave them to the captain (assuming he had some grandchildren so he could give it to them)
ijriims is offline  
Old 2009-12-09, 03:15   Link #160
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 25
How about "It was one of the things Eva recovered, and she accidentally left it on Kawabata's boat when she returned to Nijima, due to the emotional damage from losing her entire family and shooting her favorite nephew in the chest"?
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:14.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.