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Old 2009-12-05, 19:54   Link #81
Tiberium Wolf
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I think nvidia and ati should make ppl lifes easier by stopping making all those names for the vid cards.
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Old 2009-12-07, 00:00   Link #82
Urzu 7
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Okay, I'm thinking of building my own PC. What cables will I need? Some OEM products don't come with cables. I will need hard drive cables. What else? Optical drive cable?

This is what I'm considering for parts, if I build my own PC:

Asus or Gigabyte motherboard with dual PCI-E x16
4GB DDR 3 RAM
OCZ PSU over 600 watt (I forget how much, maybe a 700 watt unit)
I'm looking at two cases; one recommended from Outfoxzero
I'm thinking of getting a Phenom II x2, but I might get a Phenom II x4 955
Graphics card
750 GB hard drive

I'm not sure what to do for a graphics card. I read some newegg reviews of the 5750, a card I wanted to get...people were saying it won't work with Windows 7 64-bit...the OS I want. So I dunno what card to get. I could always upgrade to a DX 11 card later. I will look into getting a 4850, maybe a 4770 (I know the 4850 is better).

I might also want to build my own PC because it will save money and instead of one big bill, I can spread out the money I spend.
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Old 2009-12-07, 00:49   Link #83
0utf0xZer0
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There's no reason the 5750 shouldn't work with Windows 7 64 bit... Anandtech tested the card on that exact OS for their review and the drivers for it are certainly available on ATI's site.

ATI has a reputation for having more game specific bugs than nVidia although I'm not sure if this is still the case. The only really major issue I'm aware of with ATI cards and a recent game is the PC version of "The Saboteur", which according to people who got ahold of the game early is basically unplayable on ATI hardware. I consider that the game developer's fault though, since that really ought never to have gotten through quality assurance testing. Hopefully it'll get patched quickly.

Most motherboards I've seen include two SATA cables for connecting hard drives, although that means you probably need to order more if you want to add additional hard drives. Any specific reason for wanting two PCI-E 16X slots?
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Old 2009-12-07, 01:43   Link #84
aeriolewinters
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Quote:
There's no reason the 5750 shouldn't work with Windows 7 64 bit... Anandtech tested the card on that exact OS for their review and the drivers for it are certainly available on ATI's site.
Also add to that, the fact that the 5750 IS designed with Windows 7 in mind. It's a DX 11 card.

Quote:
Any specific reason for wanting two PCI-E 16X slots?
SLI or Crossfire...
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Old 2009-12-07, 02:14   Link #85
0utf0xZer0
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Originally Posted by midnightlumina View Post
SLI or Crossfire...
Presumably either one of those or adding a dedicated GPU for PhysX later. I'm not sure I see a lot of point to a multi-GPU setup for the average person though... it's overkill, and you'd probably want a power supply even more powerful than 700 watts.
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Old 2009-12-07, 02:22   Link #86
Urzu 7
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First off...lol, do I need two PCI-slots? I don't plan to cross fire. I just thought it might be good to have. I guess not. Maybe I just need one PCI-E slot.

Does anybody know if CyberpowerPC is a good site to go with? I asked before, but no one said anything. I'd like to know if they can be trusted. They are a place to buy a made PC at a great price. I hear there are some people that have issues with them, but I'd like to know if they are a site to trust. I ask because they are pretty tempting right now...I can get the PC I want (same specs as what I want that I can build myself) with Windows 7 64-bit for $675. For the same thing (for building my own PC) with the OS, it would cost over $700. Part of the reason the price is good at this site is it is a holiday special.
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Old 2009-12-07, 03:13   Link #87
0utf0xZer0
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PCI-E 16X slots are used for parts that require a very high bandwidth connection: graphics cards and controllers for very high end storage setups (the ones with like 8 drives and a 600mb/s transfer rate). So unless you're planning to run a second video card I don't see a lot of use for a second PCI-E 16 slot.

(The only possible exception I see here is if you want PhysX while still running an ATI board. Although nVidia doesn't allow it in their drivers, by using hacked drivers you can actually use a cheap nVidia card (like a GT 220) as a dedicated PhysX board while still rendering on an ATI board. But if you're that intent on having PhysX support you should probably consider getting an nVidia card in the first place.)

I take it the $675 configuration is the base level Ultra 7500 with a 700 watt PSU and HD 5750? If so, I feel obliged to point out that any 700 watt unit being sold for $65 less than a Corsair 650 watt is probably a generic and almost certainly not built to the same standard as something from a well respected brand. And if you upgrade to said Corsair, then you're not really saving anything from what I can tell.

I don't think you're going to save anything going through cyberpower without shaving some corners. I'd mainly base the choice on whether to go with them on whether you feel comfortable building a PC or not. Do you know about proper anti-static handling and such?
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Old 2009-12-07, 04:14   Link #88
Urzu 7
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I don't know about proper anti-static handling. Building my own PC is probably easy, I just don't really know everything about it, I have no one to help me in person, and I'd hate to do something wrong (such as something involving static and frying a part). I'd like to learn how to build PCs, but it'd be best to have someone in person show me what to do.

I hear ibuypower is really good and I hear nothing bad about them. I read reviews from CyberpowerPC and people were talking about things like flash card readers not being screwed in and cases coming cracked after being shipped. So, no to them.

How does the best AMD quad core stack up to an i5, anyway? I hear people say that i5s and i7s are better. I wonder if AMD will release new quad cores that will compete evenly with i7s.
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Old 2009-12-07, 06:39   Link #89
mechabao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
Okay, I'm thinking of building my own PC. What cables will I need? Some OEM products don't come with cables. I will need hard drive cables. What else? Optical drive cable?

This is what I'm considering for parts, if I build my own PC:

Asus or Gigabyte motherboard with dual PCI-E x16
4GB DDR 3 RAM
OCZ PSU over 600 watt (I forget how much, maybe a 700 watt unit)
I'm looking at two cases; one recommended from Outfoxzero
I'm thinking of getting a Phenom II x2, but I might get a Phenom II x4 955
Graphics card
750 GB hard drive

I'm not sure what to do for a graphics card. I read some newegg reviews of the 5750, a card I wanted to get...people were saying it won't work with Windows 7 64-bit...the OS I want. So I dunno what card to get. I could always upgrade to a DX 11 card later. I will look into getting a 4850, maybe a 4770 (I know the 4850 is better).

I might also want to build my own PC because it will save money and instead of one big bill, I can spread out the money I spend.
I'd suggest getting a SATA optical drive since SATA cables are easier to manage than the old IDE ones (although the SATA cable connectors are a lot more fragile).
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Old 2009-12-07, 08:41   Link #90
aeriolewinters
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Quote:
How does the best AMD quad core stack up to an i5, anyway? I hear people say that i5s and i7s are better. I wonder if AMD will release new quad cores that will compete evenly with i7s.
Right now i5's and i7's are probably at the top. But I think that when it comes down to it, an AMD setup would suffice given that i5's and i7's(The really high end ones) practically have different sockets so upgrading would be a pain. On the other hand, AMD has only one platform, and compared to LGA1156/1366, the AM3+ platform would have more longetivity.
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Old 2009-12-07, 14:52   Link #91
synaesthetic
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It looks like Nehalem beats out the AMD chips (in gaming, anyway) mostly due to the Turbo function. When more games start taking advantage of more than one or two cores, AMD has a good chance of pulling ahead since the Turbo function does less the more cores are active.
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Old 2009-12-09, 04:50   Link #92
0utf0xZer0
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
I don't know about proper anti-static handling. Building my own PC is probably easy, I just don't really know everything about it, I have no one to help me in person, and I'd hate to do something wrong (such as something involving static and frying a part). I'd like to learn how to build PCs, but it'd be best to have someone in person show me what to do.
You'll want to make sure you're grounded at all times to prevent static buildup when handling components... personally, I tie one end of a copper wire around my ankle and the other around a metal table.

Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
It looks like Nehalem beats out the AMD chips (in gaming, anyway) mostly due to the Turbo function. When more games start taking advantage of more than one or two cores, AMD has a good chance of pulling ahead since the Turbo function does less the more cores are active.
I decided to look into this, and surprisingly the i5 still seems to be quite a bit faster on the few games that do use four threads. A PCGamesHardware (a German site) broke 100fps in Resident Evil 5 on the i5 750, compared to low 80s for a Phenom X4 965 (3.4 ghz). Maximum PC got similar results: 109 vs. 89. MPC also ran the Valve Particle test, which is apparently optimized for quads and got 125 vs. 95 fps.

So yeah, the i5 seems like it might actually be worth the extra. Although Tech Report also ran a Far Cry 2 test where the i5 was ahead at low resolutions but fell behind the Phenoms when the resolution was cranked to 1600X1200 (as in like 60 fps vs. 65)... they suggested it might be related to immature drivers for i5 based mainboards, since 1600X1200 should be GPU limited.
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Old 2009-12-09, 13:48   Link #93
synaesthetic
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Interesting information indeed. I was thinking about a Core i7-860 for my next desktop build... but the price tag has been kind of making me waver. >.>;
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Old 2009-12-09, 15:26   Link #94
0utf0xZer0
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I'm still trying to decide whether I think the i7-860 would be a worthwhile upgrade over the i5-750 (well, not for me, I'm expecting to get a few years out of my Core 2 Quad still...). The big difference is hyperthreading, and I've seen some games run faster with it on, but some also run slower with it on:
http://www.pcgameshardware.com/aid,6...iewed/Reviews/

Valve's particle benchmark seems to benefit a fair bit from hyperthreading but its a synthetic benchmark rather than a real game. There's also the role DirectCompute will play in all this, since many tasks that benefit from large numbers of threads would be well suited to execution on a GPU.

I also looked a little more into the fact the Core i5/i7 seem to be slower in Far Cry 2 than the Phenom IIs and Core 2 Quads... this appears to occur with nVidia graphics cards but not ATI ones. The situation is inverted with Crysis, where ATI graphics are a little faster on the older designs but nVidia graphics seem unaffected. Go figure. I wouldn't loose too much sleep over it, since the difference is usually only a few FPS.
(Source: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...ming,2403.html Despite the main concentration of the article being SLI/Crossfire, it still provides some good info on how single card configurations work with various CPUs.)
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Old 2009-12-09, 19:02   Link #95
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Graphics drivers and cards are really iffy. nVidia drivers, although they have less bloat than the AMD/ATI ones I used to have when I was using my old Macbook Pro with a ATI card, I had some problems with the crashing, although I realized it was a power issue and I needed to reinsert the battery.

I'm still thinking that the i5 are a good choice in the long run over AMD in the future, once they improve the drivers. Also, Turbo mode is just basically automatic overclocking, but without the extra heat and power usage... I still wonder how much faster theses i5/i7 can go if one were to overclock one manually, but so far I have over clocked my Intel Core2 Duo on my laptop with nVidia System Tools and pretty much boost performance with a little more heat (would be safer if you used a laptop cooler).
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Old 2009-12-09, 19:20   Link #96
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Well, based on the results I've seen so far, it does appear that the i5-750 is about 20-30% faster than the X4 965 in gaming tests that take advantage of quad cores. So yeah.

I wouldn't necessarily count on the i5 being a great overclocking chip though... while Anandtech has pushed a Lynnfield to 4.2 ghz, they noted that it required quite a bit of voltage boost to get there. Apparently the on-die PCI-E controller prevented them from going past 3.37 at stock voltages, and I'm not really a fan of running stuff at higher than normal voltages since I like my systems to last.
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Old 2009-12-10, 23:44   Link #97
Urzu 7
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Does AMD intend to put out another AM3 quad core CPU; one that will surpass the 965 (and hopefully the i5s)?
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Old 2009-12-11, 00:15   Link #98
0utf0xZer0
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Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
Does AMD intend to put out another AM3 quad core CPU; one that will surpass the 965 (and hopefully the i5s)?
Neither AMD nor Intel has anything big planned in the quad core space at the moment as far as I know. Both companies are pushing the limits of the 45nm production process from what I've seen - I hear AMD has plans for a 3.6ghz X4 975, but the extra 200 mhz over the 965 won't make up the performance difference with the i5.

To see a real clock speed boost, you'll need to wait for 32nm processors (smaller manufacturing processes allow for higher clock speeds in general). I don't think AMD plans to produce these for a while. Intel has 32nm chips coming, but they're targeted at the low end (dual core with integrated GPU) and high end (six core) markets, not the more mid range quad core market.

I do hear AMD may release a six core AM3 CPU in mid to late 2010, whereas Intel's six core CPUs will only be available on the expensive LGA 1366 socket (as opposed to the cheaper LGA 1156 design) at first. But I'm not sure I'd consider this a big deal: unlike intel's hexa-core chips, AMD's will still be a 45nm design and I doubt it will be clocked as high as AMD's current quads. They have to keep heat output in check somehow.
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Old 2009-12-11, 01:20   Link #99
Urzu 7
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Should I go for AMD or Intel? Hmmm...AMD is more affordable, which I need right now. I can't afford the high end i7s, but I could afford the PCs with the sockets for the lower end i7s...would that be a better investment than the AM3 route? Or should I be good with AMD for awhile? I mean, I could always buy a new motherboard down the road.


Again, thanks to so many for help here. Advice here has helped me to figure out what to get for a PC. I keep fine tuning what kind of PC to go for as I save up enough money to buy this PC. I want to be able to "comfortably" pay for this PC...save up enough money so that when I buy it, I can pay most of the credit card bill off right away.
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Old 2009-12-11, 15:57   Link #100
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Intel has been real schizophrenic when it comes to sockets as of late. AMD has pretty much stuck to AM3... so yeah.

As I've noticed over the past year or so, unless you do a lot of processor-intensive tasks or are a hardcore gamer, you probably don't need something as expensive as an i7 or i5. The netbook/CULV revolution is showing people that unless you do some crazy computational shit, you just don't need to shell out $300 for a CPU alone.
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