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Old 2009-12-08, 07:58   Link #4001
Joneleth
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Well there was a Tokyo Police line on the island when Ange went there. :P
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Old 2009-12-08, 08:20   Link #4002
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Originally Posted by LaplaceNoMa View Post
It's not about fingering every character in this case. It looks like a lot of people are keeping up with the Jessitrice theory.
As for me, I'd say that Jessica is the most unlikely person to be 'fingered' as Beatrice. She is stupid, overemotive and definately not someone capable of thinking things out. And I'll have to see a very strong evidence to believe that all that 'stupid' outlook is just an act.
I don't think Jessica is really 'stupid' at all. Just because someone gets bad grades and doesn't have a strong interest in school doesn't make them stupid. I think it all stems from her wanting to rebel (consciously or otherwise) against her parents and the future they decided she would have. She doesn't have any interest in being the next head or any of the responsibilities that come with it, so naturally her grades would be affected. Again, whether she intentionally does poorly or if she's subconsciously sabotaging herself, it doesn't matter. She clearly just has no interest in it and that's why she gets bad grades. It's a pretty common thing for kids to do poorly in school but still be quite intelligent in areas that interest them. I was absolutely terrible in high school at math and science and anything that required such hard logical thinking, but I did (and continue to do) really well in areas where I can be creative, like writing, art, and the like. EP2 shows us that Jessica has a strong interest in music, for instance. Obviously her lifestyle makes it difficult for her to pursue this regularly, but whenever she gets the chance she apparently practices guitar, so music is probably one of her stronger passions, whereas things like math and language arts and the like may be more difficult for her just because she lacks interest or doesn't think in those ways. Not to mention, imagine having to spend almost all of your time studying, usually with a parent over your shoulder. Don't you think that you'd snap? If I were in that situation like Jessica, I'd go to school the next day and see it as an opportunity to relax because I've finally gotten away from my parents...and that would naturally lead to me not paying attention in class, and thus doing poorly.

Nowhere else in the story does it say or imply that Jessica is even remotely stupid. She just does poorly in school and gets bad grades, and everything about her lifestyle can be used to explain the reason for that. To use that as a means of saying she's not smart enough to pull off this sort of scheme is a little unfair. She doesn't 'act stupid' when you think about it, and there's really nothing to suggest that she's actually dumb. She's just not booksmart, or more likely, doesn't care to be, which is the contrast to George. George grew up complying with what his parents wanted and so his outlook became that he wanted to become smart and successful like his father. Jessica just wants to be your typical teenage rebel right now. Do you really think that's enough of a reason to deny the Jessica = Beatrice theory? I don't. I think she'd be more than capable of pulling off such a thing for a number of different reasons, and she's certainly not 'stupid'. I think there's a lot to support Jessica = Beatrice, and saying 'well she gets bad grades so there's no way she'd be able to get away with that' isn't nearly enough reason to deny the theory.
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Old 2009-12-08, 08:43   Link #4003
Jan-Poo
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There is also the possibility that "Beatrice" is enacting someone else's plan or that she has a smart advisor (Genji or Kumasawa could pull it off). She doesn't need to be a genius.
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Old 2009-12-08, 09:46   Link #4004
Taynis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
There is also the possibility that "Beatrice" is enacting someone else's plan or that she has a smart advisor (Genji or Kumasawa could pull it off). She doesn't need to be a genius.
Kumasawa/Genji being Jessica's advisor is a scenario that makes sense. But the problem is always "why"... Why they would do that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joneleth View Post
So I had an idea a couple of days ago.
We know thanks to Ange, that EVA is the manifestation of a young oppressed girl who wants to be free of all those stupid family obligations, so according to the moment she can represent Kasumi, Eva, Rosa and maybe Natsuhi and Kyrie.
So if a certain witch represents a certain feeling, how about Beato being a manifestation of regret?

Every time she appears in game, there is regret involved.

This could also match her title of Endless Witch : Actions done in the past cannot be undone and you can only regret them endlessly. The only way to cure yourself is to atone for your sins like she asks Battler to do.


This is probably totally wrong but whatever, I can try. :P
I don't know if it is true or not, but whatever, I like your interpretation
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Old 2009-12-08, 12:33   Link #4005
ameskitty
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Originally Posted by KanonTheFurniture View Post
...I think there's a lot to support Jessica = Beatrice, and saying 'well she gets bad grades so there's no way she'd be able to get away with that' isn't nearly enough reason to deny the theory.
The idea of Jessica being "stupid" doesn't come from her grades (heck if I had parents like that I'd be wanting to blow off school too) - it's just that she's generally been shown to be...an adolescent, I guess...in just about everything she thinks about.

Well, to put it in better terms, Jessica's kind of like her dad - she goes into everything without a plan or even preparedness and does what "feels right". Like how she's always trying to go after the culprit without a weapon or even having a clue who it may be just because she's pissed that her mom/her dad/Kanon died.

Perhaps she does have a hidden side that's a little more sneaky/clever, and her adolescent behavior is 100% theatrics, but if her personality as shown has any validity, I don't think it's even logical for her to know about the murders.
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Old 2009-12-08, 13:31   Link #4006
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Hmmm...
6人は即死であった!即死とはつまり、攻撃を受けて即座に行動不能になったという意味だ。

The part in bold is "sustain an attack" (I think) and the te-form of 受ける connects it to the rest of the sentence.

So mabye a more literal translation would be:
"By instant death, I mean that they sustained an attack and immediately became incapable of action."
This is a silly course to take, I think. If we take Beatrice's definition of "instant death" literally, it's almost like she's saying everyone who ever dies instantly was incapacitated by an attack first. Obviously that's not what she means.

Why do we have to assume that this means Kinzo was attacked? The attacking part isn't in red. She could just be saying "in addition to standard definitions of 'instant death,' a person who is attacked in a manner that renders them incapable of taking action is also instantly killed." A person who actually dies instantly for whatever reason also counts.

Kinzo's death in ep5 is described as "sudden." Or at least that's how it appears to Natsuhi. Well, Natsuhi wasn't trusted by Kinzo, and so only Nanjo (and possibly Genji) knew how long he actually had. When Kinzo died in his sleep (as it appears to have happened), he probably died "instantly." Like Jan-Poo said, the illness itself wasn't instant, but his heart stopping or whatever may have been. I don't see any particular reason Nanjo can't have been telling the truth to Kinzo, Kinzo told him and/or Genji to tell no one, Kinzo died, and then Nanjo told Krauss to keep using the "three months" story after Kinzo's death. While he was actually alive, no one probably knew.

Beatrice just had to use the definition because at least one person of the six was probably moved or died slowly of their wounds while unable to actually do anything about it. So she expanded 'died instantly' to incapacitation. But the mere fact she explained how being attacked could work doesn't mean they had to be attacked. If she'd meant that, surely she'd have said so in red.
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Old 2009-12-08, 14:35   Link #4007
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Originally Posted by the_rogue View Post
The idea of Jessica being "stupid" doesn't come from her grades (heck if I had parents like that I'd be wanting to blow off school too) - it's just that she's generally been shown to be...an adolescent, I guess...in just about everything she thinks about.

Well, to put it in better terms, Jessica's kind of like her dad - she goes into everything without a plan or even preparedness and does what "feels right". Like how she's always trying to go after the culprit without a weapon or even having a clue who it may be just because she's pissed that her mom/her dad/Kanon died.

Perhaps she does have a hidden side that's a little more sneaky/clever, and her adolescent behavior is 100% theatrics, but if her personality as shown has any validity, I don't think it's even logical for her to know about the murders.
I think a better adjective to describe Jessica is "simple minded", which doesn't necessarily entails low intelligence. However I'm not sure how much this appearance should be taken for true. Yet again a comparison with Higurashi makes me wary of possible fake personalities (Rika).
So I wonder if statements like "I can't see how she could be such an actor/actress" are really valid in Umineko considering that in Higurashi they weren't.

You can't trust anything that isn't red after all...
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Old 2009-12-08, 16:33   Link #4008
Marion
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Originally Posted by the_rogue View Post
The idea of Jessica being "stupid" doesn't come from her grades (heck if I had parents like that I'd be wanting to blow off school too) - it's just that she's generally been shown to be...an adolescent, I guess...in just about everything she thinks about.

Well, to put it in better terms, Jessica's kind of like her dad - she goes into everything without a plan or even preparedness and does what "feels right". Like how she's always trying to go after the culprit without a weapon or even having a clue who it may be just because she's pissed that her mom/her dad/Kanon died.

Perhaps she does have a hidden side that's a little more sneaky/clever, and her adolescent behavior is 100% theatrics, but if her personality as shown has any validity, I don't think it's even logical for her to know about the murders.
Saying Jessica can fool every single person with a nice act is like saying Asumu never loved Battler, despite the latter not being her son. It contradicts facts given to us.

Comparing Krauss and Jessica now you are calling her incompetent. Krauss just acts on impulse and because of that nobody wants to work with him. Good intuition but horrid timing. If you think Battler is an idiot then give Krauss a crown because he's the king.

Spoiler for EP 5:
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Old 2009-12-08, 17:27   Link #4009
Ssol
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
If we take Beatrice's definition of "instant death" literally, it's almost like she's saying everyone who ever dies instantly was incapacitated by an attack first. Obviously that's not what she means.
Yeah, basically I agree with what Jan-Poo said. He probably had a heart attack and that was his "instant death".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
You can't trust anything that isn't red after all...
And Great equalizer is The Deathッ! after all...
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Last edited by Ssol; 2009-12-08 at 21:48.
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Old 2009-12-09, 02:29   Link #4010
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I wonder if that red text is a proof that heaven and hell do not exist. If everyone is equal after death then there shouldn't be "damned" and "blessed" :3
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Old 2009-12-09, 04:46   Link #4011
Renall
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I wonder if that red text is a proof that heaven and hell do not exist. If everyone is equal after death then there shouldn't be "damned" and "blessed" :3
It's actually not that uncommon a sentiment even within Christianity. "Death is the great equalizer" is not saying that, after death, all people are the same (although that's possibly quite true); it's saying that in death, all people are the same.

Mortality is universal. You, I, and everyone will die. No amount of power or status prevents it. If I had to try to make sense of Dlanor's rants, I would probably say she's saying something like "this information is as inescapable as death." Then again, maybe she's just crazy.
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Old 2009-12-09, 22:11   Link #4012
Kirroha
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I really think that Shannon could possibly be the "Takano" of Umineko. Most of the time, Kanon's body wasn't found, right? She could very well have disguised Kanon's body to be hers, and escaped. That way, it could be said that Kanon is dead, but not necessarily that Shannon is dead. Also, it could explain why Battler keeps surviving until the end.

Shannon might very well be one 'back person', but I definitely still suspect Natsuhi for EP1, Rosa for EP2, Eva for EP3 and Krauss or maybe Kyrie for EP4. Shannon might've made use of quite a lot of people... Also, Shannon isn't her real name, so Shannon is dead might be able to slip away as such.

I'm replaying the question arcs now to see if the theory fits. Currently, I can explain EP1 with this:

Shannon is in love with Battler (well, she did say in EP3 that she remembered Battler from 12 years ago very well, and the promise he had made), but she is being pursued by George's obsessive love. After all, it's never shown that Shannon's in love with George, only George to Shannon - at least not in front of Battler. Same could be said for Kanon and Jessica. Shannon feels a strong link between herself and the dead Beatrice as she views a similarity between George and Kinzo. (Even Gaap said that George can suceed Kinzo's madness). Also, Shannon's always been looked down upon, and she wants to show that she is much stronger than she looks. She might've gotten herself broken after all those repeated pursuing by George. Even Eva might've wanted George to be happy and actually wanted to force Shannon into marriage instead of the other way around.

In Episode 1, this could very well have happened:

- Shannon dressed up as Beatrice and gave Maria the letter. Simple enough.
- Shannon conspired with Natsuhi and Gohda.
- Natsuhi put paint on her door to make herself look like a victim.
- Shannon killed the 4 adults, Gohda and herself faked their deaths with a bunch of bloody makeup.
- Natsuhi did not really lock the door, she set it up such that Shannon and Gohda could still escape the storehouse.
- Kanon suspects Shannon. She locks him up in the boiler room and disguises herself as Kanon.
- Gohda hides under Eva and Hideyoshi's bed or something. He kills Eva and Hideyoshi and return to under their beds.
- Shannon as Kanon pretended to find the corpses. She drew the magic circle and ran off for a wirecutter, pretending that it wasn't there earlier.
- Gohda leaves the room after the chain of the closed room is broken. That way, it makes a perfect closed room.
- Everyone smells the strange odour from the boiler room. Shannon is shocked, noticing that the real Kanon might've broken out. She runs over there quickly.
- The slam sound is caused by Kanon trying to leave the room. Shannon as Kanon ran up immediately.
- She kills Kanon and runs away into the courtyard. She sheds her disguise and hides.
- When everyone locks themselves in the study, Gohda hiding there is the one who put the letter there so that they'd split up.
- Meanwhile, Shannon disguises as Beatrice again and tricks Maria. She kills Nanjo, Genji and Kumasawa.
- Gohda sneaks out behind the 4 people after they receive the phone call from Maria and run out of the study.
- Shannon hides somewhere in the parlour. She leaves behind a letter for Natsuhi.
- Natsuhi reads the letter. Maria sees her read the letter. The letter contains something regarding their alliance that pissed Natsuhi off. She runs out to confront Shannon.
- Natsuhi/Shannon wedges the candlestick there to stop the kids from going out.
- Natsuhi is killed by Gohda for threatening to break their contract.
- When the kids break out of the room, Shannon sneaks out behind them.
- Gohda and Shannon confront the kids.
- What happened to them afterwards is unknown.
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Old 2009-12-09, 22:20   Link #4013
Marion
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I doubt Shannon being in love with Battler. Especially when she's getting married to George and constantly says she's okay with dying because she's now a wife. Honestly I don't see why people doubt her love for George a lot.
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Old 2009-12-09, 22:27   Link #4014
Kirroha
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But none of them were shown in the PoV of our detective, and those are the only scenes that could be trusted.

And in all these 5 episodes, George and Shannon were never sacrifices for the second twilight, even though they're the most obvious choice.
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Old 2009-12-09, 23:30   Link #4015
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[QUOTE=Kirroha;2812263]I really think that Shannon could possibly be the "Takano" of Umineko. Most of the time, Kanon's body wasn't found, right? She could very well have disguised Kanon's body to be hers, and escaped. That way, it could be said that Kanon is dead, but not necessarily that Shannon is dead. Also, it could explain why Battler keeps surviving until the end.

Shannon might very well be one 'back person', but I definitely still suspect Natsuhi for EP1, Rosa for EP2, Eva for EP3 and Krauss or maybe Kyrie for EP4. Shannon might've made use of quite a lot of people... Also, Shannon isn't her real name, so Shannon is dead might be able to slip away as such.

QUOTE]

H-hold on! Does that mean when they say Kanon is dead, it's not really Kanon? Kanon isn't his real name either. Kanon might be referrence to Kinzo's name. Weren't the furniture's names always end with "On" (or whatever that japanese letter was"? Also the

Spoiler:
could also refer to

Spoiler:
.

When I first started this game, I always assumed ranks and that golden eagle symbol had to something to do with the mystery...

Last edited by Ronove; 2009-12-09 at 23:31. Reason: Failed at "bolding"
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Old 2009-12-09, 23:45   Link #4016
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Unless her chest is all padding, there's no way Shannon could disguise herself as Kanon.
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Old 2009-12-09, 23:48   Link #4017
Kirroha
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That was what I suspected - Shannon's flat-chested!
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Old 2009-12-10, 00:11   Link #4018
LyricalAura
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@Kirroha: Shannon is a viable culprit for Episode 1 since Battler didn't see her corpse, but Gohda's corpse was lying out in the open with its face completely smashed. Battler did see it, and it falls under the "unidentified corpses" red.

Reading your theory made me think of something though. The garden shed is full of all kinds of tools, right? If Battler can use wire cutters to cut his way in through the shutter, what's stopping Shannon from cutting her way out? That way you don't need to come up with a reason for Natsuhi to be involved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion
I doubt Shannon being in love with Battler. Especially when she's getting married to George and constantly says she's okay with dying because she's now a wife. Honestly I don't see why people doubt her love for George a lot.
There's an awful lot of evidence that Battler's sin is breaking his promise to Shannon about coming to see her again six years ago.

- In Beato's first attempt at a test in EP4, she tried to get Battler to reveal the name of the girl he loved most. She didn't bring up his sin until he refused this.
- According to Beato, the sin isn't related to Battler's immediate family, but something fitting for Rokkenjima, the home of the head family. That implies that the victim is someone who lived on Rokkenjima six years ago.
- In EP2, Beato emphasized that unlike humans, she keeps her promises.
- In EP3, Shannon said she remembered Battler and his silly English very clearly, and quoted the promise that he made to her six years ago. It seemed to be a fond memory for her.
- In EP4, Beato repeatedly used mangled English phrases to mock Battler, and said it was supposed to be his specialty.
- Also in EP4, Beato refers to Battler as a "breast sommelier," and says she should be his ideal woman.

That doesn't mean Shannon doesn't love George now, but there have been a couple subtle hints that Shannon is conflicted or unhappy about George's proposal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronove
H-hold on! Does that mean when they say Kanon is dead, it's not really Kanon? Kanon isn't his real name either. Kanon might be referrence to Kinzo's name. Weren't the furniture's names always end with "On" (or whatever that japanese letter was"?
Genji and Gohda would definitely not mistake another person for Kanon.
The only one who can use Kanon's name is the person himself. A different human cannot use that name!
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Old 2009-12-10, 00:12   Link #4019
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
I doubt Shannon being in love with Battler. Especially when she's getting married to George and constantly says she's okay with dying because she's now a wife. Honestly I don't see why people doubt her love for George a lot.
Too perfect in a series that seems to like destroying happiness. Also, George is ridiculously sinister after Ep4.
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Old 2009-12-10, 00:17   Link #4020
Marion
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George sinister. In a way yes. He does seem to fall under 'love makes you crazy' just a little, but he doesn't bridge on yandere tendencies like Kyrie or even Kinzo.

But even though she can be a little bit unsure it's to be expected - going into a commitment like marriage sometimes people get a little cold feet or become afraid. But we generally always see Shannon being happy about it to some extent regardless, so saying she doesn't love George at all sounds a bit odd. Especially considering she broke what is possibly an expensive shinto mirror just at the proposal of receiving George's love from Beato in EP 2.
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