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Old 2009-12-09, 08:28   Link #4341
Kaiba
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And Rosa certainly isn't stupid. She solved the epitaph.
Or did she? I actually doubt to some degree that even Eva ever solved the epitaph, given there's no real evidence she did, and that she seemed to be suffering from major financial difficulty in the aftermath of the murders, something that shouldn't be true on finding 10 tons of gold.
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Old 2009-12-09, 08:35   Link #4342
Vegitto-kun
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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Or did she? I actually doubt to some degree that even Eva ever solved the epitaph, given there's no real evidence she did, and that she seemed to be suffering from major financial difficulty in the aftermath of the murders, something that shouldn't be true on finding 10 tons of gold.
and how would she find the gold

I doubt you could jus find it by looking around
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Old 2009-12-09, 09:41   Link #4343
ijriims
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
WHAT? Anyone, anywhere, who is as smart and drinks as much as Rosa does, should know to not mix pills or bad shit will happen. It's not localized to the West alone.

MIXING DRUGS IS BAD. PEOPLE DIE.


A body-double trick, although never defined in-game, implies faking one's death through the use of a false body. It does not matter whether this false body is an actual corpse or not.
BTW, I forgot to mention that whether Rosa knew about it was irrelevant, because I proposed that she dosed the adults in the mansion, she did not expect Beatrice would give them some alcohol inside the chapel. And what was her character before her siblings, she was too scare to tell them stop drinking as that means she had just dosed them.

Or if she did not know about it, so everything went along...

---------------------------------------------------

What I meant was that from the dialogue between Battler and Beatrice, Battler proposed someone bringing some unknown corpse to fake his or her death, so why was it strange or problematic that Beatrice just rebuked that blue text in that meaning?
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Old 2009-12-09, 10:16   Link #4344
CainSonozaki
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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Or did she? I actually doubt to some degree that even Eva ever solved the epitaph, given there's no real evidence she did, and that she seemed to be suffering from major financial difficulty in the aftermath of the murders, something that shouldn't be true on finding 10 tons of gold.
Because the police couldnt confirm for a while that everyone else was dead. So everyone was "missing". And because of that Eva couldnt use her inheritance until after the police figured that everyone else was "missing" long enough to be dead.
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Old 2009-12-09, 13:45   Link #4345
Kaiba
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
BTW, I forgot to mention that whether Rosa knew about it was irrelevant, because I proposed that she dosed the adults in the mansion, she did not expect Beatrice would give them some alcohol inside the chapel. And what was her character before her siblings, she was too scare to tell them stop drinking as that means she had just dosed them.

Or if she did not know about it, so everything went along...

---------------------------------------------------

What I meant was that from the dialogue between Battler and Beatrice, Battler proposed someone bringing some unknown corpse to fake his or her death, so why was it strange or problematic that Beatrice just rebuked that blue text in that meaning?
Wait wait wait.
She dosed them, then they went all the way over to the chapel, had a chat with Beatrice, and had alcohol and, then keeled over.
Is this a serious theory, or do I really need to point out the massive holes in this?

Quote:
What I meant was that from the dialogue between Battler and Beatrice, Battler proposed someone bringing some unknown corpse to fake his or her death, so why was it strange or problematic that Beatrice just rebuked that blue text in that meaning?
Because it contradicts what is being said in the red text. A mannequin should pretty clearly fall under the definition of a body double, and you're just reaching. Honestly, if Ryukishi pulled off something like this, it would just be cheap, as under this logic, we can just push and pull the red to however we like to fit any theory we like - which really makes the red pointless and thus this game a waste of time.

I mean, I could construct an argument that space lizards are the culprit, and if you responded with Absolutely no factors other than humans participate on this game board, I could just say that since Eva Beatrice was talking about an orangutan before hand, other animals could work. Clearly ridiculous, and yet that's what you're pulling.
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Old 2009-12-09, 14:26   Link #4346
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Or did she? I actually doubt to some degree that even Eva ever solved the epitaph, given there's no real evidence she did, and that she seemed to be suffering from major financial difficulty in the aftermath of the murders, something that shouldn't be true on finding 10 tons of gold.
Isn't her solving it confirmed in Ep5?
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Old 2009-12-09, 21:21   Link #4347
Ronove
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Huh.... speculation here but ---

If the gold the main motif to kill? I'm assuming it could be other reasons. Isn't the Ushiromiya family the only family to know about this epitaph, including the servants? This would also boost up the There are no more than 17 humans on this island!!.

But then, humans are considered to be furniture also right?? I'm always wondering why they're called Furniture, and not servants. Hidden meaning in Kanji or whatnot?

Anywho, 17 humans, but can there be anything else? It could've been animals who killed Battler at the end. He DID get torn apart.
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Old 2009-12-10, 00:57   Link #4348
Kirroha
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Is this the place to post theories, or is this just for comments on the game itself?
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Old 2009-12-10, 02:08   Link #4349
Jan-Poo
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You can post theories here provided you don't mention anything from Ep5. And since Ep4 pretty much encompasses all the mysteries of previous episodes you can post theories about those as well.
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Old 2009-12-10, 02:27   Link #4350
Metaler
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Originally Posted by Ronove View Post
Huh.... speculation here but ---

If the gold the main motif to kill? I'm assuming it could be other reasons. Isn't the Ushiromiya family the only family to know about this epitaph, including the servants? This would also boost up the There are no more than 17 humans on this island!!.

But then, humans are considered to be furniture also right?? I'm always wondering why they're called Furniture, and not servants. Hidden meaning in Kanji or whatnot?

Anywho, 17 humans, but can there be anything else? It could've been animals who killed Battler at the end. He DID get torn apart.
I think there was some kind of red in EP3 which suggested that animals are not involved in the game, or something similar. But maybe that red is only valid for EP3.

About "furniture" (家具), the word "かぐ" (kagu) could also mean "to smell", the kanji "具" (gu) could mean "tool", "means" or "ingredients" and the kanji "家" (ie) could mean "house" or "family".
Maybe "furniture" can be interpreted as "means/tools of the (Ushiromiya) family".
I don't know if this means anything... Maybe I'm thinking too much. ^^'
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Old 2009-12-10, 02:29   Link #4351
LyricalAura
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In EP4, when Beato first talks to Battler on the phone, she says something like: "Although we've slapped each other with abuse and fought many times before, this is the first time we've actually talked to each other on the game board." Then, before she confronts him over his sin, she starts talking about a bunch of things that sound like they require meta knowledge:
  • golden butterflies and anti-magic toxin, not mentioned to Battler this episode
  • the existence of multiple games and multiple worlds
  • Battler's explanation of magical elements that no one observed as the "witch's illusion", which he's only done in the meta world
You can't say that Battler died and this is a fake scene either, because Battler is alive at midnight on October 5th. So has anyone come up with any kind of viable explanation for how this conversation could have taken place, other than A) Beato is a human with memory of past games or B) she's an actual supernatural entity?
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Old 2009-12-10, 02:31   Link #4352
Metaler
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My guess is that both Beato and Battler are like...
Spoiler for Higurashi:
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Old 2009-12-10, 02:40   Link #4353
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
In EP4, when Beato first talks to Battler on the phone, she says something like: "Although we've slapped each other with abuse and fought many times before, this is the first time we've actually talked to each other on the game board." Then, before she confronts him over his sin, she starts talking about a bunch of things that sound like they require meta knowledge:
  • golden butterflies and anti-magic toxin, not mentioned to Battler this episode
  • the existence of multiple games and multiple worlds
  • Battler's explanation of magical elements that no one observed as the "witch's illusion", which he's only done in the meta world
You can't say that Battler died and this is a fake scene either, because Battler is alive at midnight on October 5th. So has anyone come up with any kind of viable explanation for how this conversation could have taken place, other than A) Beato is a human with memory of past games or B) she's an actual supernatural entity?
It would be very easy to explain if Beatrice is Jessica. They did slapped each other with abuse and fought many times before! The only problem here is trying to figure out what "gameboard" means.
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Old 2009-12-10, 02:54   Link #4354
Kirroha
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I found Shannon more suspicious. As I've said in the other thread, Kanon's body disappears quite often after death, but yet it is still stated in red that he is dead. It's possible for Kanon to disguise his body as hers, then hop down to the subway hidden underneath Rokkenjima and escape.

... Fact remains that there's a folder in the arc.nsa file called "subway". And in that folder, there were background pictures of the room of gold, and the room Bern and Lambda were in in the Ep4 ??? Tea party.
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Old 2009-12-10, 03:04   Link #4355
Jan-Poo
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Subway there stands for "underground passage", and it is a fact that under that folder you see images of the underground shown in the great escape of Kyrie's group in Ep4

Ryukishi's knowledge of english isn't perfect and there's no need to make many speculations about it, especially considering that Battler's portrait folder is named "BUT" instead of "BAT".
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Old 2009-12-10, 04:50   Link #4356
Kirroha
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That makes me wonder - I played the game twice, but I might've missed something - In EP2, Beatrice gave Rosa a letter and Maria one as well. Maria's one had the chapel's key. But it wasn't mentioned what was in Rosa's letter. And the letter about solving the epitaph and collecting interest was in the chapel with the 6 dead bodies. So what about Rosa's letter?

I guess I have to play again. Must've forgotten lots of things.
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Old 2009-12-10, 05:35   Link #4357
vendredi
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But it wasn't mentioned what was in Rosa's letter.
You're correct, it wasn't. Rosa attempted to open her letter before dinner, but was convinced not to by Maria. At dinner, the kids were shooed out before they could listen in. I believe the viewer is to assume the contents of it, given that it was presented after dinner, would be similar to Maria's letter in Episode 1.
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Old 2009-12-10, 07:46   Link #4358
Graskell
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I see no reason to think that Rosa's letter was read at dinner. The cousins were sent to the guesthouse because the adults had started arguing about Skirt!Beatrice and it looked like it might get ugly. No letter is mentioned at all during the scene even though it seems like it would be exactly the sort of information they would be looking for. Rosa instead suggests that they ask Genji about it and the cousins leave just as he arrives.

The next day a letter matching the one read in the first arc is found at the scene of the first twilight. I would have to reread the scene but I don't think it was said whether or not it was still sealed. We are lead to assume that this is the letter that Rosa received earlier, but that is just an assumption.

In fact, how do we even know that Rosa had a letter in the first place? We know Maria did because she bragged about it (and later pitched a fit over the same), but all the scenes about Rosa's letter take place outside of battler's perspective. It seems unlikely that Maria mentioned it to anyone because then they would have been asking Rosa about it when the whole Skirt!Beatrice thing came up at dinner. Yet no one did. The last time we hear about the letter is when Rosa tries to open it but Maria stops her, so it's not like Maria doesn't know about it. And yet...she never mentioned it to anyone? I'm missing something here I just know it.
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Old 2009-12-10, 08:58   Link #4359
ijriims
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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Wait wait wait.
She dosed them, then they went all the way over to the chapel, had a chat with Beatrice, and had alcohol and, then keeled over.
Is this a serious theory, or do I really need to point out the massive holes in this?


Because it contradicts what is being said in the red text. A mannequin should pretty clearly fall under the definition of a body double, and you're just reaching. Honestly, if Ryukishi pulled off something like this, it would just be cheap, as under this logic, we can just push and pull the red to however we like to fit any theory we like - which really makes the red pointless and thus this game a waste of time.

I mean, I could construct an argument that space lizards are the culprit, and if you responded with Absolutely no factors other than humans participate on this game board, I could just say that since Eva Beatrice was talking about an orangutan before hand, other animals could work. Clearly ridiculous, and yet that's what you're pulling.
I would be more grateful if you pointed out the plothold directly instead of saying something as vague as that sentence. Still not so sure about what was the time they were poisoned. I thought Genji came back and told the adults to move to the chapel, then the adults remained in the dining room for a while to discuss what was the best next strategies. Rosa said she would bring out some water for everyone, and at that time she dosed them.



In Eva's case, the context was no other organism or sentient objects were involved in the murders otherthan humans.

In EP1 2nd twilight, the context was Battler propsed someone did use a fake face-crushed body to fake his or her death, so he or she can murder Eva and Hideyoshi. Beatrice did not oppose to it.

In Ep1 6-8th twilight, he initially said someone who used a fake body to fake death from 1st twilight killed the threes, then he suggested it could be the case that the one of the threes (or two or all) actually did not die but had used an alternative corpse to fake their death. Beatrice then used the red texts to guarantee the three's identity and said there was no alternative corpses at all, referring to Battler's this line of thought.

That's how I viewed it.
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Old 2009-12-10, 10:46   Link #4360
Kaiba
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I would be more grateful if you pointed out the plothold directly instead of saying something as vague as that sentence. Still not so sure about what was the time they were poisoned. I thought Genji came back and told the adults to move to the chapel, then the adults remained in the dining room for a while to discuss what was the best next strategies. Rosa said she would bring out some water for everyone, and at that time she dosed them.
She dosed at least to the degree that they should have fallen asleep, and then everyone walked over to the chapel (a fairly significant distance away), then they talked about whatever, and then they had alcohol, and then they died.

So if they were dosed by these sleeping pills, how did they get to the chapel without it affecting them, and then how were they capable of talking and drinking alcohol?

Quote:
In Eva's case, the context was no other organism or sentient objects were involved in the murders otherthan humans.
Nope, because right before she speaks that red truth, she talks about how it would be unbearable to hear an irrational theory about how an orangutan trained to commit murder wouldn't count as a human. Therefore, under your logic of context, that red truth applies only to orangutans, and I can then argue that a trained gorilla did it instead.

Quote:
In Ep1 6-8th twilight, he initially said someone who used a fake body to fake death from 1st twilight killed the threes, then he suggested it could be the case that the one of the threes (or two or all) actually did not die but had used an alternative corpse to fake their death. Beatrice then used the red texts to guarantee the three's identity and said there was no alternative corpses at all, referring to Battler's this line of thought.
A mannequin is clearly a "fake body", and you're clearly reaching if you say otherwise.

And do you really think that in the name of context, we're allowed to just alter the red truth to whatever we think it says, particularly since I cannot believe a Beatrice who wants Battler to solve the mystery would throw in massive red herrings that would throw him completely off track? I'll go ahead and restate what I argue about the red -any red truth stated by Beatrice and Lambadelta can be accepted to be absolutely true, without word tricks! This means that if Beatrice claims "Nanjo is dead", it means that the Nanjo who lives on Rokkenjima and is Kinzo's friend is dead, not some stupid tricks like a Nanjo in Africa is dead. And if Beatrice claims no body doubles, then there are no body doubles.
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